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07-30-2012, 06:49 PM   #1
mf15
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MAP and IBD

FYI July info from Japan.
Old Mike
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22486997
07-30-2012, 07:37 PM   #2
kiny
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forget this

Last edited by kiny; 08-03-2012 at 05:07 AM.
07-30-2012, 10:16 PM   #3
D Bergy
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I am fairly certain that 95% of research into any given disease is done mainly to further more studies into that disease, but no real practical application of what is learned.

I still remember the beginning of "the war on cancer". If it was a war, we lost quite miserably. Forty years later, billions have gone into "research" but only into politically correct research. Research into proven successful treatments done on a small scale, are not even looked at. It is the same way today, with the same tired old war, that has few combatants, but lots of researchers.

Research seems to exist for the sake of research, and the big picture is either intentionally or unintentionally ignored for the most part.

How about killing some MAP and see what happens? How about finding an effective way of killing MAP and then trying it. We can send probes to Mars but these comparativy simple problems are unresolvable? I may just be a cynical middle age guy with a jaundiced eye, but I generally can smell something rotten in this whole "research" business.

Dan
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07-30-2012, 10:32 PM   #4
kiny
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I have no idea why not more testing is done on biopsies for MAP and invasive E Coli.

I don't care what it is, but they have been playing with people's lives for 20 something years arguing back and forth, for God's sake.

They have millions of dollar to spend on animal Ptc testing but they are arguing back and forth when it comes to humans, meanwhile thousands of people are suffering, because on the one hand you have super stubborn people who have their idea and refuse to accept someone else's and on the other end you have people who can't be featured on Elsevier or the Lancet because they see positive MAP tests and they get negative peer reviews.

Stop playing with our lives.
07-30-2012, 11:02 PM   #5
D Bergy
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When I have asked for a particular test for a pathogen I have reason to believe is causing me problems, it never happens.

It is not because the test does not exist, or that my insurance would not cover it, as I would gladly pay for it myself. I get answers like this. " We do not do that test for Crohn's". They do not know the cause of the disease, so why not try to learn something? At that point in time, they were not even certain it was a Crohn's problem. Would it kill them to do the test? I am paying for it, so why would they even care? Are they afraid I might be right, and that would make them look foolish?

I think the real reason is lack of interest. They simply have no curiousity as to what caused the problem. Not one bit of interest. Apparently they are trained not to look for any cause outside the small little box they have built around the disease. They treat diseases the same way year after year and ask no questions. They never even attempt in any way, to get to the root cause of the condition. Not even the smallest effort.

I find it maddening, that the very people in the best position to further knowlege about the disease, have no interest in doing so. This aversion has to be pounded into them at some point in their training. How can you work with disease each and every day, and have no interest in what causes it?

This is not always the case, but it is a rare doctor that actually has the curiosity to pursue things beyond the script. I have only met one like that in my life time.

Dan
07-30-2012, 11:16 PM   #6
kiny
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It's ridiculous that some still dare to claim MAP is harmless too. They use MAP vaccins for cows now, it's dead MAP submerged in oil, some farmers accidentally injected the needle in their arm instead of the cow, they have a granuloma reaction that can last for up to 2 years in their arm.

Oh yeah, real healthy reaction there.

Fact is, when it comes out crohn is MAP or a pathogen found in food, whatever industry it's from will come crashing down, and they are doing everything they can atm to hide that 86% of cows in the US are full of bacteria that are killing them.

Even if it didn't cause crohn, even if it caused only a subset of croh, the fact they are trying to cover this up upsets me to no end.

This is the disease 86% of the cows have in the US and this is what is currently in hamburgers and milk:

07-30-2012, 11:34 PM   #7
kiny
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I should make that my sig

08-03-2012, 02:56 AM   #8
kiny
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We, or at least I, was misinterpreting this study.

Although it's still an abstract it will be published and my friend contacted the person and explained it.

Here is a longer part of his priliminary study: http://www.paratuberculosis.info/web...proc11/379.pdf

^^ this study in fuller makes much more sense than the link on top to understand what he actually means

Checking for MAP antigen DNA doesn't mean you get just results from live MAP, it could very well be dead MAP (he refers to it as "heat killed MAP", from the pasteurisation process)

He is talking about MAP antigen, which doesn't have to be live MAP at all, it will still evoke an immune response. Live MAP doesn't explain the reaction of IL-10 they see, in animals live MAP increases IL-10 and IL-10 is needed to have a correct immune response, it decreases inflammation, but dead MAP can explain this.

So even boiling the milk wouldn't work, you would still get dead MAP and invoke a response. (that warning from Pfizer about the suspended MAP in oil from their vaccine causing a granuloma reaction when mistakingly self-injected was with dead MAP too, there is no live MAP in that vaccine)

The reason he said "reconsider 'MAP infection'" is because he doesn't see the same response in Ptb from a live infection, he thinks it's the result of MAP antigen from killed MAP from pasteurisation for example (pasteurisation doesn't kill all MAP but it can partially kill MAP)

I think this paper is really important even though I have a hard time understanding it and it is still "in process", which means the full will be released in a couple of weeks hopefully.

NOD2 is also involved in autophagy, which is partly responsible for clearing 'debris' from pathogens.

(I hope this is correctly interpreted now, it's confusing to me until he explained it)

He says to avoid all dairy too, because it doesn't matter if you kill the MAP with boiling it or not, it's going to evoke an antigen immune response.

Last edited by kiny; 08-03-2012 at 03:58 AM.
08-03-2012, 04:05 AM   #9
kiny
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This was the part that was missing from that top link, basically the most important part. I have no idea who cut off the important part on that site.

Experimental model of CD by Map antigen

To resolve the eiological question, we hypothesized that Map antigen molecules cause immunomediated colitis rather than Map infection, since live Map have not isolated from CD lesions frequentry, but Map DNA, a part of the antigen-complex has detected more frequentry. In addition, the facts that infection of Map in dairy industry is pandemic and contamination of dairy foods with Map antigencomplex (heat killed Map) is common. To test the effect of the antigen in iduction of colitis, we prepared experiments by using a Mapantigen from cultured Map and made a new mice model by using similar
manner to previously reported TNBS induced CD-like colitis. The experimental model relealed serious destructive (necrotizing) and full-thickness CD-like colitis. The colitis lesions were very similar to TNBSinduced colitis and human CD.

Conclusion

Contribution of Map antigen in the pathogenesis of CD was not proposed yet and present results provide reasonable explanation of the epidemiological correlation of incidence of paratuberculosis and CD. Our comparative studies revealed etiological relation of Map and CD, but CD lesion was not considered as infectious. The experimental mice studies provide new insights into the pathogenesis and prophylactic
approach of CD and strongly suggest the urgent needs of the eradication Ptb. At the least, dairy foods that may be contaminated with Map antigen worldwide should be avoided by family member of patients with CD or children as soon as possible, because of their possible genetic predisposition.

Acknowledgments
This work was supported by Grants-in-Aid for Scientific Research from the Japanese Ministry of
Education No. 23240061 and No. 20228005 (to H. O.), and the Bio-oriented Technology Research
Advancement Institute (BRAIN).
08-03-2012, 04:30 AM   #10
Moe.
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Sorry I'm confused.
So dead MAP is the problem. What do you mean by anti-gen.
08-03-2012, 04:49 AM   #11
kiny
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Sorry I'm confused.
So dead MAP is the problem. What do you mean by anti-gen.
antigen refers to any substance invoking an immune response from the body, it doesn't have to be from live bacteria

he uses the word antigen to differentiate from the word bacteria, bacteria implies live infection, but the issue is that when you compare the granuloma reaction from the paratuberculosis lesions in cows to that from crohn, there is a difference (it's still extremely similar though, but one of the counterargument against MAP were the slight differences in lesion, some said it was because of the physiological differences, a human has a very different anatomy compared to a cow)

paratuberculosis is from live infection...he is suggesting CD is not that in most cases (he thinks there might be rare human paratuberculosis forms too though)...he suggests it's an immune response to MAP antigen, dead MAP or heat killed MAP, from pasteurisation or from boiling or baking etc

he still thinks MAP is involved, but not in the way we thought, the reaction comes from MAP antigen that was heat killed he thinks

you still need to avoid dairy etc, ans he suggests any close relatives (genetically close relatives) should avoid dairy too, to avoid heat killed MAP

He used a mice model and used the antigen to see what happened, and the mice developed lesions, but this time very similar to crohn.

The mice had "destructive necrotizing", (he's reffering to necrotizing enteritis), and "full thickness CD-like collitis".

Last edited by kiny; 08-03-2012 at 05:48 AM.
08-03-2012, 06:40 AM   #12
SarahD
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So if Crohns is caused by a reaction to dead MAP bacteria rather than live MAP bacteria, presumably that would really limit the treatment options? With live bacteria you can try to kill it (e.g. with antibiotics) to remove the infection, but with dead bacteria...?!
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Symptoms from the age of 12. Mis-diagnosed with UC at the age of 13, and later diagnosed with Crohn's in January 2012 at 24 years old. Disease mainly in terminal ileum.


Current meds:
Azathioprine, Allopurinol, Calcichew D3-Forte, Fortijuice, Alendronic acid, Ranitidine

Previous meds:
Augmentin, Doxycycline, Lansoprazole, Asacol, Pentasa, Prednisolone, Entocort, Cipro, Flagyl, Elemental Extra 028
08-03-2012, 07:14 AM   #13
mf15
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Good find on the rest of the study. Many times pubmed citations are shortened,so you dont get the whole picture. If it is actually map antigen then that poses a real problem I would think.
Basically might mean, no dairy, nothing with any dairy it in such as milk solids who knows if the
DNA survives,no red meat unless you are sure the cow has never been exposed to MAP,but how can you be sure. You might also want to only drink and cook with distilled water,if antigens are possibly in the water supply.
It gets worse,I live two blocks from a working dairy farm, the antigen might be in the air,dust containing dried dung. Also any veggies that might be fertilized with manure migh have it at least on the surface,not sure how much manure is used today in farming.

We could also have a problem with some molecule in our body that mimics
the antigen,or something else in the environment that mimics it.
A medical approach might be to somehow desensitize the body so the MAP antigen does not cause a reaction,something like allergy shots.
I have UC.
This is interesting.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0026931

Runoff and other possible routes.
http://www.fsis.usda.gov/PDF/NACMCF_JFP_10-102.pdf

If the above paper is correct we might be screwed, it is in the air/dust
dairy farms.
http://www.veterinaryresearch.org/co...716-42-117.pdf
Old Mike

Last edited by mf15; 08-03-2012 at 01:13 PM.
08-03-2012, 07:54 AM   #14
kiny
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So if Crohns is caused by a reaction to dead MAP bacteria rather than live MAP bacteria, presumably that would really limit the treatment options? With live bacteria you can try to kill it (e.g. with antibiotics) to remove the infection, but with dead bacteria...?!
I don't know but from what I understand, I think you would still need antibiotics, you still need to wipe out MAP, but you need something to protect the lining of the intestine while you do that, to mitigate the damage from the inflammation, and then avoid all dairy. You can just stop dairy right now though, I haven't touch dairy in any form for a while and dairy is easy to avoid, not like I miss out on something essential, and can always take a calcium tablet or something.
08-03-2012, 10:23 AM   #15
D Bergy
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I wonder if Cholestyramine could remove the dead bacteria?

Read the full story in the link below, and I think you will get the gist of why this might work.

However, there is an underlying commonality, whether your disease is caused by dinoflagellates, mold, or spirochetes, for example, and that is chronic inflammation. The toxins produced by these microorganisms cause your innate immune system to respond to the foreign antigens, and the inflammation induced by exposure to the toxin is what wreaks havoc on your health.


http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...0722_SNL_Art_1

Dan
08-03-2012, 01:41 PM   #16
Moe.
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So how would one be able to stop this from happening?
Reduce map numbers? Or that won't help
08-03-2012, 02:21 PM   #17
kiny
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he said to the person I asked (was while ago, don't remember exact words and read on small cellphone) that plasma cells keep producing lGg (immunoglobulin) (that is an anitbody targeted at an antigen) at the site of infection, it forms the complex (when antigen and antibody match, they are like pairs that are created to destroy the antigen when they bind to each other), and you keep getting inflammation on that spot

if he knew a cure he would have written it I would think, when they know the cause it will help speed up the cure I am sure

Last edited by kiny; 08-03-2012 at 03:06 PM.
08-03-2012, 03:23 PM   #18
kiny
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Why antibiotics might work he explained is not because of it targeting anything specific. At the site of antibody response to antigen you get inflammation, and it breaks the intestinal wall, more bacteria penetrate the wall each time and you get a chain reaciton of inflammation on that site, more and more plasma cells produce lGg and the inflammation won't stop until you get the intestinal barrier under control and can eradicade MAP antigen and all other antigen.

(feeding through tube (through neck artery, not mouth) avoids this, that is why it works I think, it is because you are letting the gut rest, you are avoiding unecessary antigen-antibody complex reactions at lesion sites)

So antibiotics work because they are targeting broad range antigen, not because they are going after specific MAP antigen-complex, they protect the overall intestinal barrier from inflammaton, non-specific antigen induced inflammation because of increased permeability is avoided


arguments against AIEC adherent invasive E coli are still the same, they are there, but they are not there because they caused the disease some argue, they are there because of the inceased permeability, not causative or causative? MAP antigen is a good candidate because it can break down the intestinal barrier, it can and is causative in rats / mice

For rats and mice they something use NSAID, the painkillers we can't take because it can break down mucosa, they use that to induce collitis in mice to get a mice that looks like it has crohn. (and they use species of mice / rats where it works well, breeds). With antigen MAP he can do it without any help of NSAID or other things.

Last edited by kiny; 08-03-2012 at 03:39 PM.
08-03-2012, 06:15 PM   #19
Moe.
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Wow. This is a step back from all theories.z
So does this look like the cause of crohn disease?
08-03-2012, 07:16 PM   #20
DustyKat
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@ D Bergy...Did you see this post by David regarding psyllium?...

*** Potentially very important! ***

In doing some research on short-chain fatty acids, I found that psyllium can significantly increase the amount of butyrate produced by colonic bacteria. Butyrate is likely the most important short-chain fatty acid and has been implicated in various aspects of IBD.

My point here is, psyllium may be MUCH more than just a bulking agent. It can help maintain or possibly induce remission, improve blood flow in the colon, increase electrolyte and fluid uptake, reduce chances of colon cancer, and more. Ceasing its use might not be the best idea if you do well with it.

http://www.crohnsforum.com/showthrea...491#post477491
I wonder if psyllium would have the same effect as the cholestyramine? It seems to in many other respects.

Just as a side note...when I had the cat the Vet's the other week we were talking about feline aids and getting the cat into remission. One thing led to another and I told him about the kids having Crohn's and this led to us having an interesting discussion about Ovine (sheep) Johne's Disease, MAP (he wanted to know if the kids had been tested for it) and Crohn's. Shame most doctors aren't as interested as the Vet was!

Dusty.
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08-03-2012, 07:50 PM   #21
D Bergy
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I had not seen it, but I have been buried in work lately.

Psyllium would have to be better than that nasty cholestyramine. I have a box of that stuff, because I couldn't hardly get it down, when I needed it.

Another anecdotal report I have from a person I trust, said that a relative of his resolved all her rather bad Crohn's symptoms using nothing more than Redmond Clay. It is not supposed to be as good as cholestyramine, but there may be more than one mechanism involved.

It took a couple of months, but she recovered and is well to this day. That was a few years ago.

I bought some of the Redmond Clay but I was too ill from infection to even use it a while back. It is not too tasty either. I think the Psyllium may work as well. I guess the important thing is none of it is likely to cause any serious problems, that can't be resolved by not using the product.

It is something we can try and see what happens. I do not think any of it will work quickly, but if any of them work, we have another important tool to battle this crappy disease.

I hate waiting for the next "break through".

I have to wait until I have my takedown surgery later this month but I am going to us one of these and see what happens, or better yet, what doesn't happen. I simply cannot afford another problem. I lost a goodly amount of guts on that last bout. Enough that I need B-12 shots.

Thanks for the information. It is all pretty important and relatievely safe in my opinion. Just the way I like it.

Dan
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