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Crohn's Disease Forum » General IBD Discussion » Do you believe crohn's is purely genetic?


 
10-12-2012, 02:54 AM   #1
Gianni
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Do you believe crohn's is purely genetic?

Do you think Crohn's is only caused because of genetics?

Do you think if you carried the gene you could have done anything to avoid manifesting the disease? Or do you think it is left up to chance?

Gianni
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10-12-2012, 05:05 AM   #2
partyboy690
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I think a lot of people carry the gene but don't smoke and don't do a lot of things I think that would trigger it. Obviously my dad carries the gene because he passed it onto me but my uncle got the disease and not my dad so I don't think its purely genetic.
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10-12-2012, 06:33 AM   #3
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The genetic component of inflammatory bowel disease is more complicated than just having one gene for Crohns, I would argue that it is a combination of genetic factors that predispose someone to have IBD.

There is definitely a genetic link, even if it seems like a relatively weak one. This suggests that there is not single cause or single gene responsible. Which makes sense because the simple fact that some people respond better to certain therapies than others, suggests that IBD is a common symptom that we all share resulting from various pathologies. In other words, Crohn's, UC and other linked inflammatory diseases are probably the result of epistatic reactions between tightly linked genes.
10-12-2012, 07:22 AM   #4
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There is a theory that crohns is infectious; as well as, geneticaly linked. But, what isn't? We all carry cancer genes called oncogenes, its just a matter of environmental factors and immune modulators that allow us to " turn them on" , progressing to full blown cancer. Thus, i believe that this lovely C disease acts somewhat the same way. We all carry the gene, it's just a matter o whether or not our bodies can combat it and keep it supressed completely or if a trauma happens and that gene is allowed to break free.Just a theory .
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10-15-2012, 08:55 PM   #5
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Personally, I am hoping it was a game of chance with my genetic lottery

For my story - my mother thinks she was diagnosed with mild Colitis when she was 21 (she has nothing to back this up and there is no other family history of IBD) she then had four kids - three girls and one boy. One of my sisters is only 22 months older than me and we were brought up exactly the same until I turned 18. That meant: we shared a bedroom, went to the same schools, wore the same clothes (hated that one as I got her hand me downs) and we ate the same food.

I was diagnosed with Crohnís Disease six years ago and as I say I hope it was just because of genetic lottery, I would really hate to have to kick my own butt if the choiceís I made after I turned 18 gave me Crohnís now!
10-16-2012, 03:16 PM   #6
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I read an article that 'reported' that people with a genetic link... family history.. have a 10 times risk of developing it than those who don't. I e-mailed the author of the article to try to find out where she got those figures, but she never responded, and there weren't any footnotes, credits, sources, etc., attached to the article. I can't at this stage remember what periodical it was from... (this was several years back... someone posted a link to the article.. I believe it was a West Coast US periodical/magazine.) Anyway, so please take that number with a grain of salt. I've heard 1st hand from many doctors that there is a genetic risk factor; but never an exact number or percentage. Having said all that, it appears that genetics plays a part, but isn't the sole factor. If it was all genetics, only people with a family history of the disease would get the disease; and obviously, that isn't so. I don't know (my memory sucks.. I blame it on Crohns, not my age) if anyone has ever conducted a poll on here about family history/no history of Crohns, but if not, it might be interesting to see the results. I'm betting there would be plenty of members here who never heard of Crohns disease until they were hit with it.
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10-16-2012, 03:25 PM   #7
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I am the only person in my whole family that has it. No sisters, brothers, cousins, moms, dads, aunts, uncles, noone but me has it in our family.
10-16-2012, 04:51 PM   #8
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The genetic link for Crohn's disease is weak but it exists. The interesting thing about the genetic connection is that it's not only connected with other cases of Crohn's or inflammatory bowel disease in families but is genetically linked on a more rudimentary level to other autoimmune disorders in general. This is the reason the genetic connection is so weak. Your may have inherited some predisposing genes for an autoimmune disorder from one parent that wouldnt show up unless pleiotropic and/or epistasic interactions with other genes inherited from the other parent resulted in expression of the Crohn's. Sometimes it takes a number of genes from both parents for this to happen. Sometimes, all it takes is the right gene from one parent that gets passed down for generations and when it happens to meet the pair up with the right combination of genes the chain reaction of genomic interactions commence and the resulting disorder whether it's Crohns, Lupus or [insert autoimmune disorder here of choice here] shows up.

I just had my hand operated on, and it's killing me, so I have to stop. This explanation is by no means complete but generally what I wanted to say. Feel free to chime in and correct any discrepancy.

Here are links that reference not only the genomic connections but environmental factors.


http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/...l.pgen.1002254

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/...l.pgen.1002254

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/la...750-8/fulltext
10-16-2012, 04:54 PM   #9
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My Aunty on my Dad's side has server Crohn's and my Grandmother ( her mother) has always had stomach issues , although I have never been given a clear answer as to what is up with her.
Meanwhile my Mum has also had IBS type symptoms for years too.
So I don't think I had much chance of dodging the bullet.

My brother says he doesn't have trouble , although I notice he takes quite a while in the loo (takes a paper with him).

My two sisters have a different Dad from me and they seem ok.
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10-16-2012, 06:03 PM   #10
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Do you think Crohn's is only caused because of genetics?

Do you think if you carried the gene you could have done anything to avoid manifesting the disease? Or do you think it is left up to chance?

Gianni
Lol, I know what you are trying to get at. Being vegan and juicing right? However I have a question for you. How so then can my friends family have 2 people diagnosed with crohns when it's a strictly vegan family and has been so for some generations (he is Indian)? He was diagnosed while being vegan, growing up on home made meals...

Although likelihood he did have a genetic predisposition since his grandfather had it. They do say it tends to skip a generation each(most) time.

Personally, I think there might be more than one condition or let's say strain of crohns, labeled under "crohns". That's why some react well and some dont to certain foods/drugs/juicing/EN/LDN ect. I definitely think it has a genetic and autoimmune component in each case. There probably is more factors than just those two we just don't know of yet
10-16-2012, 09:45 PM   #11
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Lol
K

I know what you are trying to get at. Being vegan and juicing right?
I don't believe I mentioned that. This is simply a thread to see how others view the disease. Many of us believe it has to do with genetics but not many people are very specific on what exactly that means.

How so then can my friends family have 2 people diagnosed with crohns when it's a strictly vegan family and has been so for some generations (he is Indian)? He was diagnosed while being vegan, growing up on home made meals...
I don't like to play the he said she said game. Just because someone is vegan it doesn't mean they automatically are healthy. I could eat nothing but potato chips, french fries, and soda and call myself a vegan. I also was brought up on home cooked meals, that holds no weight in the discussion as i cannot analyze exactly what was eaten, home cooked meals isn't a food.

You claim that his family was vegan for previous generations. The system of agriculture with GMO's, pesticides, and deficient plants has completely changed the health and DNA structure of the plants that your friend's previous ancestors were used to. (I am assuming that he ate commercial produce). Not to even mention the added "vegan" foods I mentioned in the previous paragraph.

I am not by any means ruling out genetics because obviously there is a link there. This thread was simply to see how others viewed it.

If you want to discuss diet, please do so in one of my diet threads.

Thank you for your opinion on the genetic link.

Gianni

Last edited by Gianni; 10-16-2012 at 10:05 PM.
10-17-2012, 01:07 AM   #12
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I believe it's a combination of environmental issues and genetic components. My husband tests positive for the genetic markers and does not have Crohn's-while my tests did not show definitive markers yet I've had Crohn's for 21 years.

Like Ethan I am the only one in my family with Crohn's. I think if you smoke, drink, or maybe experience a traumatic event, your body's defenses can be lowered enough to bring it on.
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10-17-2012, 10:12 AM   #13
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I believe that it is part genetics. Even if not hereditary, it more then likely is a result of a genetic mutation. Since crohns is a problem at the cellular level, and it is known scientifically to be at the cellular level, genes/chromosomes must be involved. Whether it is an in heredited cellular mutation or a mutation that happens later on in life, due to immune response/stress/environment changes... The cellular replication and DNA is involved.

I'm in the group of people who believes that there is a heredity factor. My grandmother has had severe Crohns since the age of 17. My siblings and I all have bowel issues, and other autoimmune disorders. Crohns and UC are tricky to diagnose even with today's amazing(well sometimes) medicine, which means that even if your grandparents or cousins or other siblings do not have the disease, other family members may have had it without ever knowing. People are quick to jump to conclusions that the rate of Crohns is skyrocketing. That is in itself a false assumption. The rate of people being correctly diagnosed is skyrocketing. Crohns itself was not considered a disease until the 1930s, and even with that was and is extremely hard to diagnose with out costly diagnostic tools.
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10-17-2012, 12:10 PM   #14
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I don't like to play the he said she said game. Just because someone is vegan it doesn't mean they automatically are healthy. I could eat nothing but potato chips, french fries, and soda and call myself a vegan. I also was brought up on home cooked meals, that holds no weight in the discussion as i cannot analyze exactly what was eaten, home cooked meals isn't a food.

You claim that his family was vegan for previous generations. The system of agriculture with GMO's, pesticides, and deficient plants has completely changed the health and DNA structure of the plants that your friend's previous ancestors were used to. (I am assuming that he ate commercial produce). Not to even mention the added "vegan" foods I mentioned in the previous paragraph.

Gianni
Gianni,

There are professional athletes that have IBD, even gold medalists that deal with the consequences of flares. These people are arguably some of the healthiest people on the planet. Eating a proper diet is critical to their success but invariably because of their disease, they must still deal with flares no matter what they eat.

Before there was GMO food there was inflammatory bowel disease. Even your buddy Hippocrates recognized it around 600bc. And also it's hard to associate that any random genetic mutation would directly result from consuming GMO foods. Mutations would have to happen at a ridiculously high frequency in order for enough of them to account for the increase in IBD we see today. We would also notice other randomly crazy manifestations if genetic mutation happened such an increased rate, for example someone might notice an eyeball growing out of their butt or something like that. Considering how ubiquitous GMO foods are today and how rare IBD is there has to be more to there in order to connect a causal relationship. I am not saying that there isnít a connection. However, if you want to implicate GMO foods as a key factor responsible for causing IBD, whether itís via genetic mutation or not, you will have to conduct some research and reference credible sources that support your point with relevant data.

But this is a discussion about genetics, and even though there is a dietary element involved in IBD, if you are genetically predisposed to have it consider yourself fortunate when you are not having a flare. However, accepting the fact that a disease genetic doesnít mean that you are completely powerless over it. On the contrary, it has been over 10 years since I had a serious flare. Even after so much time has passed since enduring that impressive agony, the memory of it remains vivid enough that 10 years later I still do everything I can to keep this disorder in check, which means taking medication. If I didnít take medications and just used diet to control this disease I would have been powerless. The quality of my life would have been destroyed and I would have died by now. By the way, thatís what happened back in the day when Hippocrates was around, many people died young because needless to say, medicine was not nearly as advanced then as it is today. Hippocrates used food as his medicine because he had no other means at his disposal comparable to what is available today. Make sure you keep that in mind when you are drinking your food.

By the way, my new juicer just came I am going to go give my hand a break from typing and make myself a smoothy... mmmm
10-17-2012, 01:11 PM   #15
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The one thing about a genetic predisposition that I can say for certain is that there is a curious association with people who have Crohn's, UC, Lupus or other autoimmune disorder that have inherited an autosomal dominant gene responsible for causing deficiency in heme production called porphyria. This deficiency in heme synthesis causes its own set of problems and it is a rare disorder.

Because [in most cases] porphyria is caused by an autosomal dominant gene, there is a 50/50 chance that a parent will pass it on to a child. However, not everyone who has this deficient gene will actually realize it, since the symptoms associated with this type heme deficiency are often elusive and non-specific. Only 10-15% of people who have the gene ever encounter situations frequently enough to experience the symptoms associated with acute porphyria. The other 85-90% donít even know they have it even though they might have an acute attack once or twice in their life.

Another thing interesting is that just like IBD, historically, the geographical prevalence of acute porphyria is higher in Northern and Western regions of Europe and it has gradually increased in the same areas of southern Europe with the prevalence of IBD.

At fist glance, some people could argue that the similar prevalence of porphyria to IBD is merely a coincidence. Others may argue that itís probably a deficiency in vitamin D that links the prevalence to the same northern regions of the globe and nothing more. Maybe it is, however, since both IBD and porphyria have been observed in southern regions of Europe as well as South Africa the vitamin D argument needs more support if itís going to hold up.

Itís also very interesting when we look at the disease process behind IBD. A big part of drug therapy currently focuses in regaining control of the intestinal immune system. The loss of control of apoptosis is one of the factors responsible for causing inflammatory bowel disease. Targeting cytokines responsible (TNF-alpha) for mediating apoptosis with specific drugs has demonstrated very good results for some people with IBD. What is interesting here, is that heme is a messenger ligand that is fundamental for orchestrating the communication/crosstalk that ultimately regulates cellular function and apoptosis as well as conducting other critical metabolic functions in the intestines. It would make sense in a situation where there is a depleted heme pool and/or heme production cannot be up-regulated fast enough in response to certain stimuli, that control of apoptosis would be lost as it is in IBD. That loss of control translates into the specific disease associated with the corresponding (otherwise innocuous) heme dependent genes or combination of genes [insert your genes here]. Without getting into too much more detail, this argument suggests that there is enough evidence here explain the weak genetic link associated with IBD implicating porphyria as the smoking gun behind the cause of at least some cases of IBD, and also demonstrates why everyone with porphyria doesn't have IBD.

It is a little more complicated than what I have explained, there is a bit more to it. I would be happy to clarify add specifics and share what I have learned from my research so far. If anyone is interested.

Some of the information that I have gathered from reading some of the other threads since I first found this forum suggests that itís likely that some of you probably have the porphyria gene and might not be aware of it. I have read threads where several people with IBD (whether they had Crohnís or UC it didnít matter) have described specific symptoms consistent with porphyria that are not necessarily characteristic of IBD. It would be interesting to find out how many of us actually have porphyria in addition to IBD. The knowledge might be useful in not only to help tailor therapy but itís imperative to know if you have porphyria to avoid situations that might put you at risk for nasty consequences.

I hope that enough people are interested and reply with any additional comments or questions.
10-17-2012, 01:20 PM   #16
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If I didnít take medications and just used diet to control this disease I would have been powerless. The quality of my life would have been destroyed and I would have died by now.
Well, being diagnosed with severe crohn's two years ago, I'll let you know If I'm alive and well in 20.



Even your buddy Hippocrates recognized it around 600bc.
Source please?

And also it's hard to associate that any random genetic mutation would directly result from consuming GMO foods.
I wasn't trying to make a direct relationship. It is no secret that these are bad for health, and anything that threatens our health should be taken seriously whether or not it has been connected with IBD because our bodies are one unit and if these gmo's were to cause other problems that is one more burden are body has to bear which ultimately will lead to a weakened body and possibly more agressive disease.

My point about GMO's was that the food structure is completely different than our ancestors. Our bodies cannot find the benefits from the food so we become deficient. Malnutrition can cause a TON of problems and I absolutely believe that can be a driving force in auto immune manifestation.

Hippocrates used food as his medicine because he had no other means at his disposal comparable to what is available today.
Absolutely not. He had a strong belief that the body had an innate ability to heal itself. He was able to demonstrate this through nutrition. He was first to demonstrate that diseases were caused naturally and would be fixed NATURALLY. People died in the time of Hippocrates because they believed diseases were caused by the Gods. They thought the only two ways of dealing with diseases was to succumb to the God's will or make sacrifices... not too sure how that would've helped them. Hippocrates wasn't an instant star when he made his theory, people still believed that diseases were from the Gods... not to mention there was no TV he could just go on and try to explain his theory.

Hippocrates also believed the body needs to heal as a whole and it is not compartmentalized. Drugs target specific parts of the body, not the body as a whole so no if he had access to let's say Remicade I would bet just about anything he wouldn't give it a seconds thought.

His whole theory was based on boosting health so absolutely not would he use the same drugs that are used today seeing these drugs almost always suppress health.

Plus there is evidence some Greeks used mercury as a medicine, Hippocrates and his followers didn't.

By the way, my new juicer just came I am going to go give my hand a break from typing and make myself a smoothy... mmmm
A blender or a juicer? I hope your hand feels better, Don't stick it in the Juicer

Gianni
10-17-2012, 01:53 PM   #17
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A blender or a juicer? I hope your hand feels better, Don't stick it in the Juicer

Gianni
Just got the Ninja QB1004. Drinking a mixed fruit smoothy right now. Love this Ninja! Cant beat it for the price. And don't worry there is no way to put my hands inside while its running.

My wife hid the juicer from me because I made such a mess with it last time I used it, but I know where she put it

Seeing that you were diagnosed 2 years ago with severe Crohn's 2 years ago, I hope you are fortunate enough not to ever have symptoms again and if I am still alive in 20 years you can tell me about it. I'll reply to your other points later when I get back from running errands. In the mean time if you want that Hippocrates reference just Google it I am sure something relevant will pop up, otherwise you will have to wait for me to get back.

Later...
10-17-2012, 02:16 PM   #18
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Gianni, I have 20 plus years now, and I'm still here!
I am the only one in my family with Crohn's, we could not find it in any earlier generation. Both of my older brothers (we share the same mother) have some colon issue, but nothing as serious as Crohn's.
Personally, I believe it's more than one thing, and the more I read, the more I think it could also be the diets we eat, the poisons in the ground, etc. The human diet for most of the world has changed drastically since humans were first eating on this earth. In remote places where the diet hasn't changed much, they do not have the diseases or other health problems that plague most of the civilized world, even down to not having dental issues.
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10-17-2012, 04:24 PM   #19
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he human diet for most of the world has changed drastically since humans were first eating on this earth. In remote places where the diet hasn't changed much, they do not have the diseases or other health problems that plague most of the civilized world, even down to not having dental issues.
Exactly, but unfortunately our medical community doesn't take these cases seriously and doesn't research into them. It makes perfect sense that the answer lies within the people whom don't manifest auto immune disease.

Thank you for the post
10-17-2012, 04:43 PM   #20
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You are more than welcome!
10-17-2012, 05:17 PM   #21
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Well...IBD does run in my family. But, I do have a coworker that is undiagnosed and seems to show signs of Crohn's from something she took as a teenager. As far as we know, her family doesn't carry IBD...
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10-17-2012, 06:11 PM   #22
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Hippocrates also believed the body needs to heal as a whole and it is not compartmentalized. Drugs target specific parts of the body, not the body as a whole so no if he had access to let's say Remicade I would bet just about anything he wouldn't give it a seconds thought.

His whole theory was based on boosting health so absolutely not would he use the same drugs that are used today seeing these drugs almost always suppress health.

Plus there is evidence some Greeks used mercury as a medicine, Hippocrates and his followers didn't.

Gianni
Gianni,

No one can argue that the human body doesn't have an incredible capacity to maintain homeostasis, the level of redundancy built into the body is absolutely amazing. The human body has a lot of systems built in to repair itself from injury to keep it going. However, the capacity that the human body has to heal itself has certain limits otherwise we would live forever.

If too many systems are out of whack then the body is going to have a harder time healing itself. This is at least one reason that I agree with you that we must have adequate nutrition to fuel our body so it's functioning optimally. However, as nutrient levels become saturated in the body we start seeing diminishing returns from consuming additional nutrients and eventually negative effects. Also, there is only so much that adequate nutrition can contribute to fight infection or deal with any other insult it may encounter either from environmental and/or genetic factors.

No doubt Hippocrates was a brilliant physician but -- if he had Remicade available and refused to use it as you suggested then certainly some of his patients would suffer unnecessarily and die prematurely. Whether he used Mercury or not matters why? Yes Mercury is toxic, but a physicians job is to decide whether or not the benefits out weigh the risks. A good physician will presumably make decisions that will save your life but not necessarily his ego. It's a pretty bold statement to say that every doctor that uses Remicade or any other life saving medication should probably put their prescription pad down in exchange for your juice menu. So I am not sure how you came to the conclusion that Hippocrates not use Remicade in that hypothetical situation

Also, even though I agree with you about some of the unknowns of GMO foods, before you go on to explain the danger GMO foods it might help your argument to explain exactly how the structure is different and why that difference prevents the human body from absorbing nutrients. Not all GMO is created equal and just because someth is GMO doesn't make it automatically bad. Try telling that to the Mayans who were responsible for domesticating and genetically modifying maize to form of corn that we eat today. It has been traded and grown since 2500 BC and is the definition of GMO food (that reference you can find easily on your own in case you don't already know).

Your argument about GMO will have more credibility if you are able to point to specific facts on what types of problems have been known to occur from ingesting GMO foods instead of just saying our body can't find benefits from it. The body has no idea that food is GMO or not, there is no warning that your body sees which says here comes GMO food ha ha you're not gonna get any benefits, it just breaks it down the GMO like it would anything else you ingest and eventually you deal with the consequences, what ever they are.

There should be plenty of studies available that can provide relevant information if you care to research. I am not a huge fan of GMO food myself and have read my fair share of studies. Monsanto is a major source of nasty stuff and also has lots of enemies that are always publishing juicy facts about their products You might want to start with finding reputable articles about their products and who uses them. Most people would be surprised to learn just how involved Monsanto is in their lives.

As for Hippocrates here are some of the references you were looking for and I was mistaken he lived around 400BC not 600BC.

http://m.medindia.net/patientinfo/ul...ve-colitis.htm

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...3780010103/pdf


By the way, my smoothy was delicious and the juicer is coming out tomorrow, going to try to extract juice from pomegranates from my dads tree. I have had a hard time extracting juice from them, any advice?

I am sure the wife will not be happy with me, they always make a big mess.
10-17-2012, 10:31 PM   #23
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Like Ethan I am the only one in my family with Crohn's. I think if you smoke, drink, or maybe experience a traumatic event, your body's defenses can be lowered enough to bring it on.
This is what was told to me also, my son is 9 and I mother him, feed him etc the exact same way as my other children. He has Crohn's. Perhaps he had an infection in his body that lowered something and let it happen. I'd really love to know x
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10-18-2012, 04:27 PM   #24
Gianni
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However, as nutrient levels become saturated in the body we start seeing diminishing returns from consuming additional nutrients and eventually negative effects.
Our bodies utilize the nutrients, they just don't sit there and stay forever. The nutrients needs to be constantly replenished.

Also, there is only so much that adequate nutrition can contribute to fight infection or deal with any other insult it may encounter either from environmental and/or genetic factors.
Our immune system is the ultimate fighter. It can absolutely deal with its own infections. By the time i got my 3rd pneumonia while taking humira I decided to treat it with food instead of antibiotics. I was able to overcome it in about the same time that antibiotics would have taken but even then my immune system was weak before i started to "saturate nutrients". Pneumonia can be a dangerous infection and as far as infections so I think the body has the ability to take care of them.

Our primal selves strengthened our genomes, so why can't we protect our genomes or even rebuild our genomes? It's only common sense. Researchers know that antioxidants can protect from DNA damage. Why can't other nutrients do the same?

or oils?

There are a bunch of other sources linking nutrition to the strengthening of DNA and chromosomes if you care to look into it. I'm not basing these opinions off of delusion, I'm basing them off of forgotten, "unimportant" science.

Whether he used Mercury or not matters why? Yes Mercury is toxic, but a physicians job is to decide whether or not the benefits out weigh the risks.
Mercury wasn't thought to be toxic back then it was used as an anti septic and a very successful one. The fact that he would use food and exercise over conventional treatments even at the time suggests he would stick to his guns. In my opinion, Hippocrates would be ashamed to be called the father of western medicine today if he saw the manner in which medications were being used and how even with western medicine this western nation is the sickest in the world, while those countries/populi whom have stuck to nutrition are clearly more healthy than us.

It's a pretty bold statement to say that every doctor that uses Remicade or any other life saving medication should probably put their prescription pad down in exchange for your juice menu.
I don't recall saying that, But i digress. I'm not saying Juicing is the end all, I don't even believe I have mentioned juicing in this thread yet. I'm talking about nutrition and when you repeat that sentence with put down their prescription pads in chronic conditions and prescribe nutrients, it doesn't sound so bad. Of course I recognize that these medications have their values in acute, life saving situations. Nutrition isn't a rescue drug but I believe it should be taken more seriously as a long term treatment. But people don't want to hear that, which is what i have such a hard time understanding. Its safe, its easy, it makes sense, you take matters into your own hands. But "if it was that easy my doctor would have told me".

Doctors receive little to no training in nutrition today. So they don't know as well. You can be wrong, and you can be sincerely wrong.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/16/he...chen.html?_r=0

http://www.naturalnews.com/036702_do...atalities.html

Last year, a bill was introduced in California to mandate that physicians get continuing medical education in nutrition (see Nutrition Education Mandate Introduced for Doctors). Unbelievably, physician trade groups such as the California Medical Association came out in opposition to the bill, which would only require doctors to get a measly 7 hours of nutrition training anytime before 2017 (see Medical Associations Oppose Bill to Mandate Nutrition Training). Read more: http://www.care2.com/greenliving/how...#ixzz28sHp37yh


http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/83/4/941S.full

There are plenty of other sources about doctors and nutrition. It's a pretty well known fact amongst the medical community and it's critics. Truth is, in undergrad they learn about the body, medical school they learn about medicine. Medicine, medicine and more medicine.

So I am not sure how you came to the conclusion that Hippocrates not use Remicade in that hypothetical situation
The same way you came to the conclusion he would. "Hippocrates used food as his medicine because he had no other means at his disposal comparable to what is available today." (From your earlier post)

Also, even though I agree with you about some of the unknowns of GMO foods, before you go on to explain the danger GMO foods it might help your argument to explain exactly how the structure is different and why that difference prevents the human body from absorbing nutrients
Only unknowns because monsanto has patents on these GMO's and refuse to do long term health studies, and any independent researchers who do, do under the risk of litigation.

Plants are made of plant cells in the nucleus lies DNA. This DNA is how the body recognizes which plant has entered the body and what to do with it. Our pancreas and digestive tract doesn't have eyes or a nose so it reads the DNA to determine which enzymes are needed to digest the food if aid is necessary.

Monsanto and other GMO companies literally remove sequences of the DNA and insert their own. Therefore the DNA is unpredictable and the body treats it as a foreign invader and will actually elevate white blood cell activity. These genes that are inserted can actively release a toxic insecticide, these insecticides are now being found in high amounts in the blood of pregnant women.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21338670

ot all GMO is created equal and just because someth is GMO doesn't make it automatically bad. Try telling that to the Mayans who were responsible for domesticating and genetically modifying maize to form of corn that we eat today. It has been traded and grown since 2500 BC and is the definition of GMO food
I wouldn't call that Genetically engineering ha. They simply just soaked the corn and cooked and hulled it, not really using a virus to implant a gene inside the crop a gene that will create pesticides. Even so it isn't the point of the conversation as I'm sure everyone thinks of todays Gmo's rather than maize... even if you would consider it a GMO, which I would not.

The body has no idea that food is GMO or not, there is no warning that your body sees which says here comes GMO food ha ha you're not gonna get any benefits
I didn't say the body has an alarm system...? I'm unsure what you mean here.

As for health problems, you can do a google search and get some sources but here are some anyways.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...78691512005637

http://www.responsibletechnology.org/health-risks

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0..._n_420365.html


Also watch this video on GMO's, I found it very interesting.

By the way, my smoothy was delicious and the juicer is coming out tomorrow, going to try to extract juice from pomegranates from my dads tree. I have had a hard time extracting juice from them, any advice?

I am sure the wife will not be happy with me, they always make a big mess.
Ahh pomegranates, I ruined a few articles of clothing before I found this awesome video on the best way to deal with a pomegranate.

Or you can try the ever popular water method

Gianni
10-18-2012, 05:04 PM   #25
Mountaingem
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This is what was told to me also, my son is 9 and I mother him, feed him etc the exact same way as my other children. He has Crohn's. Perhaps he had an infection in his body that lowered something and let it happen. I'd really love to know x
I believe the virus that causes the stomach flu, particularly the norovirus is believed to trigger Crohn's in children and adults that are predisposed to it.

My doctor has said some bacteria that causes food poisoning (listeria) and c.difficile also have the same effect. His advice-try not to get food poisoned. Yeah, I'm sure EVERYONE already tries not to get food poisoned, thanks Doc lol!
10-18-2012, 09:02 PM   #26
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Gianni,

I see that I invoked quite a response. Glad, I got you thinking, and as always, you do bring up some interesting points. You make it very easy to tell that your heart is in the right place.

Our bodies utilize the nutrients, they just don't sit there and stay forever. The nutrients needs to be constantly replenished.
Gianni
First, let me remind you that this is the second time you have incorrectly made this point. It is wrong on several accounts but for the sake of time I will (at least try) to elucidate why by citing two examples. However, I fear that I still might be wasting my time
1. The fat-soluble vitamins A, E, D, and K can hang around for a long time. Excessive levels of these vitamins have been known to cause toxicity. If you want to deny the potential for toxicity, thatís your prerogative. Go ahead an replenish them, by all means go crazy feel free to ignore any previous knowledge gained from people that have made the same mistake.
2. The non water-soluble vitamins can cause havoc as well even if they donít stick around for long. Did you ever wonder what your body does to the excessive vitamins (fat-soluble or not) that you take in? In case you didnít know, itís constantly trying to get rid of them. Is this why you make your argument that you need to replenish? I guess you donít think that uses precious resources. Ok since you understand that better than everyone else, then there is no argument, you are right, go ahead and take loads of vitamins. You are young now -- your body can handle it a lot. Give yourself 10 years kid you will be singing a different tune. There is nothing that I can write here that will convince you of that. You will have to impart that wisdom on yourself with time.

As for your other points, I realize that you already put a lot of thought into them but you have not shown one inkling that you are willing to admit there is a possibility that you could be mistaken. Clearly, since you are only 20 years old, there hasnít been enough time in your life for you to acquire enough knowledge and experience to make you an expert on everything that you are talking about. In fact, you are not able to deviate at all from the notion that you have all the answers. Basically, you arenít able to give anyone any credence if they disagree with you. That ego will get you in trouble my friend, the same way it got the doctors that you chastise so much in trouble. Be careful. However, even though I disagree with many (not all) of your arguments, I admire the passion you have and that is one quality that you never want to lose because I can see that it will take you far.

I am sorry that Humira didnít work out for you. It is a nasty drug for a nasty disorder. I understand why you are so resentful to the medical community for not having all the answers. No one does, not even you. Unfortunately, itís hard to accept but we would be fooling ourselves if we thought otherwise. Thatís not to say that we should stop the quest to learn more but we have to accept reality along the way.

As for the pomegranates, yeah I know how to cut into them, been doing it since I was six. I wanted to know if you used a blender or your juicer to extract their goodness. Aside from making a mess, I wanted to see if you had technique that was more efficient than picking out each individual kernel from the pith. I hate the bitterness the pith leaves and I have yet to find a juicer that can leave the pith behind unless I pick most of it out first.

It's getting late, gotta go to bed. ttyl8r
10-18-2012, 09:55 PM   #27
Gianni
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First, let me remind you that this is the second time you have incorrectly made this point. It is wrong on several accounts but for the sake of time I will (at least try) to elucidate why by citing two examples. However, I fear that I still might be wasting my time
We've had this conversation before so I'm not going to delve into it again but I will say you changed the structure of the conversation on me. I was saying that the nutrients don't sit in you forever, even fat soluble vitamins are utilized and you will need to replenish them. I realize that Fat soluble vitamins can be dangerous at extreme levels, my food log carefully dictates what vitamins are going into my body and I am careful with the fat soluble ones, with that being said I don't think the RDA of these vitamins is nearly enough.

We have talked about water soluble ones, and you can go back to the other thread to view my opinions.

k since you understand that better than everyone else, then there is no argument, you are right, go ahead and take loads of vitamins. You are young now -- your body can handle it a lot. Give yourself 10 years kid you will be singing a different tune. There is nothing that I can write here that will convince you of that. You will have to impart that wisdom on yourself with time.
The only vitamin I am supplementing is Vitamin B12, a water soluble. I get all of my other vitamins through consumption so i highly doubt I ,this "kid", will be singing a different tune from eating fruits and vegetables.

If you think vitamins are more detrimental than long term medication then you sir will be singing a different tune in 10 years.

As for your other points, I realize that you already put a lot of thought into them but you have not shown one inkling that you are willing to admit there is a possibility that you could be mistaken.
You are just assuming this. Have you conceded that you have been mistaken? We have our own opinions, and not one is greater than the other. You make your decisions/ideas and I'll make mine, whether or not we yield we are mistaken doesn't matter. I am constantly researching and constantly changing my ideas/opinions/views on different matters and you bet I have to realize my mistakes and change with my views. I used to believe food held no power, and 2 years ago I probably would have called myself crazy.

Clearly, since you are only 20 years old, there hasnít been enough time in your life for you to acquire enough knowledge and experience to make you an expert on everything that you are talking about. In fact, you are not able to deviate at all from the notion that you have all the answers. Basically, you arenít able to give anyone any credence if they disagree with you.
21. I never said I was an expert neither do I think I am... I am simply on these forums to learn and to share what I've learned. In no way do I think I have all the answers, that is why i continue to research and is why i continue to read this forum and continue to learn.

In fact, you are not able to deviate at all from the notion that you have all the answers.
I found this sentence a little funny, the use of "in fact" and then stating you think I think I have all the answers is almost paradoxical. In the future use ... "In fact" when something is a fact unless you believe you know me well enough to claim it as a fact, which you don't. I take that as a personal attack.

Basically, you arenít able to give anyone any credence if they disagree with you.
A lot of people even in this post have posted things in which i disagree with, but i simply thank the post and that's that. I respond to you because I feel like its a tradition now You're clearly a smart guy and I respect your opinions and I truly enjoy the discussions we have but just cause I disagree with you doesn't mean I lack the ability to recognize other people's opinions and give credit where credit is due, after all most of my threads are asking for other's opinions.

Thatís not to say that we should stop the quest to learn more but we have to accept reality along the way.
Accept the reality that the disease is incurable? accept the reality that the best way to deal with this disease are dangerous and scary longterm drugs? the reality that 75% of Crohn's victims will need intestinal surgery? the reality that all those things above is the only answer?

I am not in denial, I went through that stage long ago, but that doesn't mean the "acceptance" stage means to not believe there is a better answer out there.


Aside from making a mess, I wanted to see if you had technique that was more efficient than picking out each individual kernel from the pith.
Well those methods show great alternatives to picking each individual kernel out... did you watch the vids?

And yeah don't juice the pith, its gross, although the pith is a great cold remedy

Having said all this I do appreciate the lively debates and I respect your opinions although I'd rather talk about Crohn's and anything related rather than any personal traits you may think I have.

Gianni

Last edited by Gianni; 10-18-2012 at 11:49 PM.
10-18-2012, 10:38 PM   #28
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Nutrition isn't a rescue drug but I believe it should be taken more seriously as a long term treatment. But people don't want to hear that, which is what i have such a hard time understanding. Its safe, its easy, it makes sense, you take matters into your own hands. But "if it was that easy my doctor would have told me".
You want to know why? This is why. Its the assumption that we haven't tried diets or that we all must eat fried mayonnaise balls for breakfast, lunch and dinner (I know you didn't say that, I'm saying that's how your posts come off to me). You constantly bring up a "Western/American diet" and suggest eating healthy to everyone on here. All you have to do is share your thoughts on diet, how its helped/helping you and provide research on how its helped other people with Crohn's. Yet your posts come off as attacking us for eating poorly (no one that I've seen has shared with you what they eat everyday) and they come off as treating us as if we're stupid. We don't blindly follow doctors. We're all on here asking questions and doing our own research. I don't know how many threads I've seen on here (its countless/never ending) where a person says that their doctor suggested something yet they come on here to see if that helped others or if there's an alternative.

Now at the very beginning you say that nutrition isn't a rescue drug yet you constantly bash medication (suppressing the immune system in general), doctors (your posts have mentioned they only want money and know nothing about food, well see a nutritionist and a GI, don't put nutritionists out of work) and posters (calling us sheep) on here for using medication instead of changing their diet (again an assumption on your part that we all eat poorly).

Should you wait until you get to the point of bleeding or needing surgery to try going on medication? No. In my opinion that's extremely risky. Does that mean we shouldn't eat healthy? Of course not. Many studies have shown that healthy diets help people live longer, give more energy, help your immune system etc. Just because we have IBD doesn't mean we can't benefit from a healthy diet in a similar way. Obviously not the same because we still deal with inflammation, scar tissue etc making digestion difficult along with diarrhea, the pain of any type of food or even beverages passing making eating in general a chore/battle, trigger foods bringing on more symptoms etc. Those are just a few of the issues that come with IBD. So in the end, you're right, nutrition isn't a rescue drug but its possible it could help in the future. Medication though allows us to have that future. If you've read through the forum you'll find many threads where people share their story about how they would have died and we can't jump to conclusions about how they must have ate poorly their entire life and that they're too stupid to question an uneducated money grubbing doctor.
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Diagnosis: Crohn's in 1991 at age 9
Surgeries: 1 Small Bowel Resection in 1999; Central IV in 1991-92
Meds for CD: 6MP 50mg
Things I take: Tenormin 25mg (PVCs and Tachycardia), Junel, Tylenol 3, Omeprazole 20mg 2/day, Klonopin 1mg 2/day (anxiety), Restoril 15mg (insomnia), Claritin 20mg
Currently in: REMISSION Thought it was a flare but it's just scar tissue from my resection. Dealing with a stricture. Remission from my resection, 17 years and counting.
10-18-2012, 11:09 PM   #29
Gianni
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You constantly bring up a "Western/American diet" and suggest eating healthy to everyone on here. All you have to do is share your thoughts on diet, how its helped/helping you
I do constantly share my diet and how it has helped me, look over my posts if you don't believe me. My first few posts on this forum was exactly this but people doubted it. I have shared my thoughts on why juicing is so beneficial and I hope to continue sharing my experiences.

(your posts have mentioned they only want money and know nothing about food, well see a nutritionist and a GI, don't put nutritionists out of work)
I have never mentioned that doctors are money hungry, I've mentioned Pharmaceuticals are a big business and it isn't in their best interest to "cure" us because they are making plenty of money as is. Doctors , I believe, are honestly trying to help the individual. Even though my previous G.I. prescribed hard drugs on me, I understand that is what he learned and he is happy that I am doing better on a diet.

I have said doctors know little about nutrition, because it is true. They are not required to learn much about nutrition during their schooling and I've backed that up with sources.

You want to know why? This is why. Its the assumption that we haven't tried diets or that we all must eat fried mayonnaise balls for breakfast, lunch and dinner
If your someone who believes your diet is fine then don't read my posts. If you go to diet Fitness, and supplements section on this forum (at the way bottom) you will see one of the most popular threads is "Top 3 favorite fast food places"

I absolutely believe some people on this thread eat healthy. In fact there are others like me who believe that nutrition is the best medicine, I've been messaging these individuals throughout my time here on the forum.

I'm not saying everyone eats trash, I'm saying healthy food is more powerful than previously believed. Many people have their diets simply to avoid symptoms (elimination diets) but all I'm preaching is that taking it a next step further and including foods that help the body is in people's best interest.

Medication though allows us to have that future. If you've read through the forum you'll find many threads where people share their story about how they would have died and we can't jump to conclusions about how they must have ate poorly their entire life and that they're too stupid to question an uneducated money grubbing doctor.
I completely agree that medication allows people the future in serious situations and in no way have i ever recommended that someone in a dire situation pick up a juicer or start researching into nutrition, In fact i tell them my experience in dealing with a dire situation and to listen to their doctors because in the case of emergency situations no one does a better job than the medical community.

I was one of those people that didn't think twice about my doctors advice and trusted him fully (but again I don't think doctors are out to swindle everyone from their money) (I have a good relationship with my doctor). I am just suggesting people take matters into their own hands as well and do everything possible to increase your health.

(I know you didn't say that, I'm saying that's how your posts come off to me).
As long as we're making observations, your posts come off to me as someone who lacks the imagination to entertain the idea of a different pool of knowledge not popularly accessed. In my previous threads you refused to reply to my sources of nutrition not being traditionally taught in medical school, nor did you respond when I brought up my opinions on suppressing inflammation and extraintestinal manifestations. You are headstrong, as am I, but I don't think someone holds the power to critique someone if they had not at least entertained the ideas presented.

I realize you don't agree with just about anything I have to say, and are constantly one of my biggest critics and I appreciate that, but if you feel that strongly against me and my beliefs than you don't have to read or take to heart what I have to say. Those interested will read.

Sorry if I had offended you in any prior posts.

Gianni

Last edited by Gianni; 10-18-2012 at 11:34 PM.
10-18-2012, 11:32 PM   #30
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I don't believe I mentioned that. This is simply a thread to see how others view the disease. Many of us believe it has to do with genetics but not many people are very specific on what exactly that means.
Obviously that is exactly what you wanted to tell us... about your diet & genetics, just like you have without me in the last 6 posts. Which is ok, absolutely - its your side of how you view this whole disease. I was actually trying to help you, believe it or not. I assumed this thread was in responce to a forum member asking you (in another thread) to make a genetic vs diet thread. Your answer was "noted" shortly followed by this thread. So please dont play coy and make me look bad. I WAS trying to help get it started with a valid question that ive always had. But... i will stay away - Ive got no opinion on genetics. No one thinks its "just genetics". There are most likely more components then we believe there are. Way more.
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