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Crohn's Disease Forum » General IBD Discussion » The Real Cause of Inflammation/Ulcers In Crohn’s Guts? (SHOCKING)


 
01-23-2013, 03:20 PM   #1
Dave Watson
 
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The Real Cause of Inflammation/Ulcers In Crohn’s Guts? (SHOCKING)

This is the first of five articles about a completely new way to look at Crohn’s disease.

As I mentioned in my introductory post, the whole idea that Crohn’s is an autoimmune disease is being questioned and even undermined by recent research. For example, the paper below states that CD should be called a chronic inflammatory disorder and instead of an autoimmune disease.
“When a disorder like Crohn's disease responds to anti-inflammatory treatment but does not meet accepted criteria of autoimmunity, we submit that it should preferably be called a chronic inflammatory disorder of unknown cause, in which case nothing is implied and nothing is assumed. Emerging genetic and immunological data suggest that Crohn's disease is not an autoimmune disorder...”
Source: http://www.thelancet.com/journals/la...282-6/fulltext
Also, more and more evidence proves Crohn’s sufferers have a WEAK immune response instead of aggressive one that would explain the cause of inflammation and ulcers
In Crohn’s disease, a constitutionally weak immune response predisposes to accumulation of intestinal contents that breach the mucosal barrier of the bowel wall.
Source: http://www.thelancet.com/journals/la...265-2/abstract
The cause of Crohn’s disease (CD) remains poorly understood. Counterintuitively, these patients possess an impaired acute inflammatory response, which could result in delayed clearance of bacteria penetrating the lining.
Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2737162/
recent molecular biological and clinical investigations indicate that CD is actually a primary immunodeficiency. 9
Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20594132
Given the above research (and there’s more), we have to seriously question the theory that CD is an autoimmune disease and whether an aggressive immune response is really the cause of the inflammation and ulcers in the guts of CD sufferers. If we are objective, there really is NO evidence to support the current theory of Crohn’s. In fact, all the available evidence suggests the exact opposite: Crohn’s is not an autoimmune disease and Crohn’s sufferers have a weak immune response and not an aggressive one.

So, if an aggressive immune response is not causing the inflammation and ulcers, what is?

Before I share with you what I’m certain is causing the inflammation/ulcers, I want you to consider this fact. There are bacteria that ferment sugars to produce acid that can destroy the hardest substance in our body! In our mouth, bacteria (Strep and others) ferment sugars to produce lactic acid that creates holes in teeth or completely destroys them. A colony of Strep, invisible to the naked eye, can create big hole in a tooth exponentially greater than the size of the colony. So, if bacteria can damage teeth via acid production in such a devastating way, under the right conditions, could bacteria in the guts of Crohn’s sufferers cause the inflammation/ulcers? (It's estimated that there are more bacteria in the gut than cells in the body - that's a lot of bacteria!)

This study shows a link between Crohn's and dental disease.
Dental status in CD patients is poor... patients with CD belong to a high-risk group, and preventive measures should be taken early in the course of the disease.
Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14571099
Here’s what I’m certain is causing the inflammation/ulcers in the guts of CD sufferers. This explanation gets a little technical but it’s well worth the effort to understand it.

Normally, immune cells (macrophages) protect the gut lining from damage by bacteria. However, when there’s too much of protein called TNF (tumor necrosis factor-alpha) in the local environment, it affects their normal behavior and the immune cells don’t protect the gut-lining from damage by bacteria.

Certain bacteria ferment carbohydrates (sugars/starches) and produce acid as a by-product. In Crohn’s, the inflammation/ulcers are CAUSED by acid-producing bacteria along the gut lining. The acid produced by the bacteria BURNS the gut-lining causing the inflammation and ulcers. It’s SHOCKING, I know, but there's overwhelming evidence to support it! Let me show you the evidence by asking a series of questions and then answering them.

If bacteria ferment carbs to produce acid, is there any evidence that sugar/starch consumption is linked to Crohn’s?

ABSOLUTELY! There’s around 12 independent studies from a number of countries that suggest carbohydrates are somehow linked to the onset and development of CD. Here’s just a few.
A diet high in refined sugar and low in raw fruit and vegetables precedes and may favour the development of Crohn's disease.
Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/519184

Sugar consumption was significantly increased in Crohn's disease
Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6832625

A high sucrose consumption was associated with an increased risk for IBD
Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9245929

Our data confirm that patients with Crohn's disease and ulcerative colitis have a high intake of total carbohydrate, starch and refined sugar
Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7866810

consumption of sugars and sweeteners, sweets...were positively associated with CD risk
Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15677909
Is there any evidence that reducing carb consumption improves Crohn’s?

Yes, a recent study, using a diet based on SCD, improved ALL CD patients and virtually all were off anti-TNF medication.
9 out of 11 patients were able to be managed without anti-TNF therapy, and 100% of the patients had their symptoms reduced.
Source: http://works.bepress.com/barbara_olendzki/46/
This study used a sugar-free diet for maintenance of remission.
Sugar-free diet as long-term or interval treatment in the remission phase of Crohn disease--a prospective stud
Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6135129
There's also successful studies based on elemental diets. And there's a very significant amount of anecdotal evidence too.
Although the current medical consensus is that diet is not related to CD, three modern practitioners have independently discovered this perception to be false.

• Robert C. Atkins, M.D. states in his book, Dr. Atkins’ Vita-Nutrient Solution, that he has a 85 percent success rate of treating CD patients with a sugar-restricted (low carbohydrate) diet and high doses of B-vitamins, including folic acid and pantethine.

• Wolfgang Lutz, M.D., a medical clinician in Austria has a success rate of over 90 percent when treating his patients with a low carbohydrate diet for at least one year.

• Elaine Gottschall, M.S. has had remarkable success at healing others suffering from Crohn’s disease and Ulcerative Colitis with a specific carbohydrate diet (SCD), even curing her own daughter.

• John Yudkin, M.D. states in his book, Sweet and Dangerous, that he has successfully used a low carbohydrate diet to treat a variety of gastrointestinal ailments. In one study he achieved a 70 percent success rate.

Source: http://pecanbread.com/healingcrow/di...ohn/crohn.html
This is a Youtube video of Alex Herring who used a low-carb diet to achieve and maintain long-term remission (8 years plus): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3alTJXEULk

Is there any evidence that bacteria are penetrating the gut-lining and immune cells (macrophages) not removing bacteria from the gut lining?

These papers/studies discuss bacteria penetrating the gut-lining.
In Crohn’s disease, a constitutionally weak immune response predisposes to accumulation of intestinal contents that breach the mucosal barrier of the bowel wall.
Source: http://www.thelancet.com/journals/la...265-2/abstract

The cause of Crohn’s disease (CD) remains poorly understood. Counterintuitively, these patients possess an impaired acute inflammatory response, which could result in delayed clearance of bacteria penetrating the lining.
Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2737162/

Crohn's disease: Bacterial clearance in Crohn's disease pathogenesis
Source: http://www.nature.com/nrgastro/journ...ro.2010.1.html
This study found that immune cells were less able to remove dead cells in a TNF-rich environment. If they are not removing dead cells, it's quite possible they are not removing bacteria along the gut lining.
Overall, the data suggest that macrophages in a TNF-alpha- and oxidant-rich inflammatory environment are less able to remove apoptotic cells and, thereby, may contribute to the local intensity of the inflammatory response.
Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17548650
Is there any evidence that acid burn is causing the inflammation/ulcers in the guts of Crohn’s sufferers?

Diseased sections of Crohn's guts are typically deformed, thickened and/or scared.

This study discusses stricture formation in Crohn's.
Intestinal fibroblasts in CD possess enhanced capacity for collagen reorganization and contractile activity in vitro. This activity may be responsible for stricture formation in CD.
Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1420964/
This study discusses stricture formation following acid burn.
Acid burns of the upper gastrointestinal tract produce a complex combination of lesions
Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8971503
This paper discusses gut thickening in Crohn's and which is similar to a rat model where acid was used to induce disease.
In areas of gross stricture in CD, the muscularis mucosae comprised almost 10% of total wall thickness. Similar findings were also present in a previously characterized experimental model of CD (trinitrobenzene sulfonic acid-induced colitis in rats), particularly in what appeared to be grossly strictured areas.
Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2020666
Here's some other similarities between Crohn's and acid burn:

Crohn's is linked to vitamin D deficiency low bone mineral density.
"Our data suggests, for the first time, that Vitamin D deficiency can contribute to Crohn's disease,"
Source: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0127104904.htm

Low bone mineral density is frequently associated with Crohn's disease. Supplementation with daily calcium and vitamin D is associated with increases in bone mineral density. The addition of oral etidronate does not further enhance bone mineral density.
Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15704046
Acid burns are linked to calcium wasting and vitamin D deficiency.
Thus, burn injury gives rise to calcium wasting, failure of bone to take up excessive calcium, and vitamin D insufficiency to frank deficiency.
Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22332088
Type V collagen is increased in Crohn’s.
In strictured intestine both collagen content and the relative amount of type V collagen were significantly increased compared with control intestine.
Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3335305
Type V collagen in increased in burn tissues.
Our data demonstrate that type V collagen in preparations from human post-burn granulation tissues consists of 3 alpha chains and can be resolved into 2 distinct heterotrimers.
Source: http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v8.../5614183a.html
Proteolytic activity is increased in Crohn's.
Proteolytic and leucine aminopeptidase activity levels in faeces from patients with Crohn’s disease and healthy subjects were compared and were found to be 2.5 and 6 times higher, respectively, in patients with Crohn’s disease.
Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3069527
Proteolytic activity is increased in burns.
This increased proteolysis may play a role in wound repair and scar formation.
Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16984440
The inflammatory response in Crohn's has been studied for several decades. The inflammatory response in burns has been extensively studied too. Both involve iNOS, PGE2, IL-6, IFN-y expression and much more. I spent a considerable amount of time comparing them and they are the SAME! Here's some specific examples.

IL-22/3 & IL-17 pro-inflammatory cytokines are “fundamentally connected” to Crohn’s.
Our findings suggest that activation of the IL-23/IL-17 axis is fundamentally connected to the etiology of CD and may represent the basis for the relapsing nature of the disease by increasing the sensitivity of epithelium to microbial LPS.
Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18512248
The Th17 cytokine IL-22 is expressed at high levels in CD and correlates with disease activity
Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubme/18022867
IL-17 and IL-22 are also found following a deliberate burn.
Recently, a novel class of T-helper cells, termed Th-17 cells, has been found to secrete the pro-inflammatory cytokines IL-17 and IL-22.
Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21353393
Th1/Th17 cells are considered characteristic of Crohn's
Th1 and Th17 pathways are implicated in Crohn's disease (CD).
Source: http://gut.bmj.com/content/60/Suppl_1/A212.1.abstract
Th1/Th17 cells can be generated following a burn injury.
Th17 cells critical mediators of host responses to burn injury and sepsis.
Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22753950

Thus, burn injury primed native T cells for an enhanced Th1-type response.
Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9706148
This year I intend to have analyzed resections from multiple Crohn's sufferers by experts in the field of burns. I'm sure they will conclude that the thickening, deformation and scaring is caused by acid burn.

So, If Crohn’s sufferers eat a low-carb diet will the inflammation/ulcers heal quickly?

Unfortunately, probably not! Normal gut bacteria cause the inflammation/ulcers but something else prevents them from healing or delays the healing process. I will cover this in my next article.

Here's a simple diagram that sums up this article.


This is a potentially a huge breakthrough in Crohn's so let's debate it in an intelligent manner

Last edited by Dave Watson; 01-24-2013 at 03:58 AM.
01-23-2013, 03:42 PM   #2
Ihurt
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I absolutely agree with this theory. I also think Bacteria are the cause of A lot of these chronic diseases. I have not been dx yet, but I have a lot of digestive pain and issues. I also have a disease of the bladder called interstitial cystits in which "they" say is autoimmune. But oddly enough, I only get relief while on certain antibiotics! I have had to be on low dose antibitoics for over 4 years now as that is the ONLY thing that brings me relief.

It took them forever to find out that bleeding stomach ulcers are caused by the bacterium helicobator pylori. I know that a friend of mine see's a osteopathic doctor who treats a lady who had severe crohns disease. She was told by her gastro surgeon that she had to have her colon removed it was so bad. Well she decided to work with this osteopath doc and he put her on a strict diet, I mean mainly just juicing and a whole food diet. Within a year she no longer suffers at all. I mean can you imagine if she had let that surgeon take out her colon?? I know everyone is different and everyone's disease is different in how it will effect them. But I do think that bacteria and low immune system does play a role in it. When the immune system is low, then nothing in your body is going to run right and that can lead to all sorts of issues. I Hate when they say that these autoimmune diseases are caused by an over-active immune system. There is NO proof of that . I rather like to call it a malfunctioning immune system as opposed to a over active immune system.

No doubt that this disease and many other chronic diseases are very complex. Another thing I thought about is that could it be that our cortisol levels have something to do with the bodies ability to heal. I mean when a person has crohns, right away the doctors answer is to treat with prednisone. Well prednisone messes with the cortisol levels. I kind of think prednisone is like a bandaid. It takes down inflammation due to it's anti-inflammatory effects, but at the same time it lowers ones immunity leaving the body wide open for other things to attack. I mean it is only good for very short term and temporary. I mean it seems like when one stops the prednisone, symptoms return quickly which would make sense if crohns was caused by a bacteria. I mean when you are on steroids, yeah it is keeping the inflammtion down for the moment, but when you get off of them your immune system is so low from being on steroids and vunerable that symptoms will come back that quicker, it is easier for bacteria to take hold again. It is just a theory, but it makes sense.
01-23-2013, 05:23 PM   #3
Beach
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Interesting, and thanks for writing up. It is interesting how many diseases seem to have a connection to dental health. Have you read some of Weston Price's writings about how he was able to prevent cavities in most patients? I remember some of his writings mentioning that he found after patients avoided modern processed grains, plus took vitamin D3, butter oil (vitamin K2?), and cod liver oil "harmful" bacteria levels in their saliva dropped significantly.

I don't have Crohn's but found after I followed similar ideas mentioned by Dr. Price that my gut condition improved greatly, and cavity formation all but stopped. I used to develop cavities very easily. I used to joke with the dentist that he should place a plaque on a wall with my name, dedicating a room to me.

Just saw this sight and thought it look interesting also.

www.healthymouthsummit.com
01-23-2013, 05:53 PM   #4
Hope345
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thanks so much for these posts.
01-23-2013, 06:20 PM   #5
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Wow, thanks Dave, for the compelling information on Crohn's and its possible causes. It makes total sense so far! I, for one, have had problems with my teeth over the years. I actually had a lot of dental work last year, took antibiotics (amoxycillin) 3 times last year, started having crohn's symptoms around October and was diagnosed with crohn's by the end of November.

I also had vitmain D deficiency about a year ago or so.

I've been put on a low residue diet (doc says for life because of stricturing), Asacol and have been 'in remission' - no symptoms for the past month. I've been *craving* sugar like crazy, I don't know why... maybe from the lack of fresh fruits and veggies?? There are lots of carbs on the low residue diet. I looked at the SCD diet and that is way too restrictive for me. But maybe, in time, I can try a low carb diet and see what happens. I'm just afraid of the stricturing and want to avoid surgery.

Anyway, thank you for all of the work and research you've done and sharing it with us!! I look forward to reading through the links and look forward to your other articles.

Last edited by Sarah50; 01-23-2013 at 06:46 PM.
01-23-2013, 07:07 PM   #6
D Bergy
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Interesting information.

Has any of this research identified specific pathogens?

I have personally dealt with E-Coli, MAP, H-Pylori and Mycoplasma Pnuemonia
I am not sure these are always present with all cases of Crohn's but they were all factors in mine.

Dan
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01-23-2013, 07:14 PM   #7
Dave Watson
 
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That's coming in a later article Dan where I explain how AIEC and MAP are indirectly responsible for the inflammation and ulcers.

Recent research has found 92% of CD sufferers infected with MAP, and up to 36% of sufferers infected with AIEC. If this research is fairly representative, it's quite possible all Crohn's sufferers are infected with either MAP, AIEC or both.

Interesting information.

Has any of this research identified specific pathogens?

I have personally dealt with E-Coli, MAP, H-Pylori and Mycoplasma Pnuemonia
I am not sure these are always present with all cases of Crohn's but they were all factors in mine.

Dan
01-23-2013, 07:40 PM   #8
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Thank you so much for this article (and the ones to come). Very interesting to read. I completely agree that Crohn's is not an autoimmune disorder.
01-23-2013, 07:42 PM   #9
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Fantastic information! I truly beleive that this is not an autoimmune disorder. I just cant figure out what to eat that never has processed grains and sugars.
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01-24-2013, 04:06 AM   #10
PollyH
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I agree that the production of D-lactic acid by the intestinal bacteria is quite detrimental. I also agree that the exposure to LPS from gram negative bacteria is very inflammatory. Those two problems --- excess D-lactic acid and exposure to LPS --- are at the heart of the intestinal problems suffered by people with Small Bowel Bacterial Overgrowth (SIBO). (I'm a moderator on a SIBO group. We are talking about Crohn's, right now, so I stopped by your group to see what the connection was to Crohn's.)

I believe the inflammation characteristic of Crohn's can initiate a case of SIBO. Also, I think SIBO can alter hormones and the immune system in such a way as to make a case of Crohn's more serious. Yet, there must be something else unique going on with Crohn's, or all the people with SIBO would be showing up with Crohn's and colitis.

From what I've read, it is the way the immune system deals with yeast / fungus that is unique to Crohn's and colitis. There is an increased load of yeast / fungus in those with Crohn's and colitis, partly because the immune system is having a difficult time removing it. For instance, the MAP bacteria interfere with the removal of yeast by macrophages. This interference increases inflammation.

A lack of Dectin-1 has been associated with increased severity of colitis in humans and mice. A lack of Dectin-1 can be genetic, and a lack of this has been shown to interfere with the removal of yeast by macrophages. This immune weakness increases inflammation. When you induce colitis in dectin-1 deficient mice, the colitis isn't as severe if you give an anti-fungal.

The AIEC bacteria replicates within macrophages. I would assume that this would also interfere with the removal of yeast by macrophages.

There is a full text article available for free that talks about colitis and an impairment in the ability of the macrophages to remove yeast/fungus. Here is the link and a quote.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3432565/

"Fungi are recognized by a number of immune receptors among which Dectin-1 has emerged as key for phagocytosis and killing by myeloid phagocytes. Dectin-1 is a C-type lectin receptor that recognizes β-1,3-glucans found in the cell walls of nearly all fungi. Dectin-1 activates intracellular signals through CARD9 leading to inflammatory cytokine production and induction of T helper 17 (Th17) immune responses (10-13). Deficiencies in either Dectin-1 or CARD9 result in enhanced susceptibility to pathogenic fungal infections in humans and mice (14-16). Polymorphic variants in the gene for CARD9 are strongly associated with Crohn’s disease and ulcerative colitis in humans (17, 18). Furthermore, anti-Saccharomyces cerevisiae antibodies (ASCA) against yeast mannan have been strongly associated with Crohn’s disease (19, 20). Together, these later findings suggest a possible link between immune responses to commensal fungi and intestinal disease."
01-24-2013, 04:09 AM   #11
wildbill_52280
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I believe the term you are using, this "acid burn" is pretty non-scientific, and doesn't represent any specific concept related to ibd nor can be found in the scientific literature used in the same way that you use it. There are many types of acids in nature, like lactic acid which is produced under natural fermentation of dietary fibers by probiotic bacteria in the intestine which are anti-inflammatory, or even butyric acid(butyrate), which is highly anti-inflammatory, http://gut.bmj.com/content/47/3/397.full and resolves inflammation in IBD. So there is no justification to say all acids cause IBD inflammation, if any acids do, which specific acid's are you talking about?

So i am wondering how you know or reason that an "acid burn" is responsible for inflammation of the colon? my guess is, you do not know this but may have simply made this up or from poorly interpreting(umm manipulating) the scientific literature.

Is there any evidence that acid burn is causing the inflammation/ulcers in the guts of Crohn’s sufferers?

Diseased sections of Crohn's guts are typically deformed, thickened and/or scared.

This study discusses stricture formation in Crohn's.
Intestinal fibroblasts in CD possess enhanced capacity for collagen reorganization and contractile activity in vitro. This activity may be responsible for stricture formation in CD.
Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1420964/
this reference does not support the claim that acid burn causes ibd inflammation. they were comparing fibrolasts from uc to crohns to get new information about how strictures form. No mention of any sort of acids causing inflammation.


This study discusses stricture formation following acid burn.
Acid burns of the upper gastrointestinal tract produce a complex combination of lesions
Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8971503
the acid burns they are talking about in the above study you posted are from common household cleaners (muriatic acid) that people are using to attempt suicide, and are NOT the same as what is going on in IBD, therefore the reference you provided does not support nor prove the claim "acid burns cause crohns disease" the study above has no mention or anything to do with any form of IBD.

here is the full version of your reference, everyone feel free to read it yourself.
http://ejcts.oxfordjournals.org/cont...1/934.full.pdf





This paper discusses gut thickening in Crohn's and which is similar to a rat model where acid was used to induce disease.
In areas of gross stricture in CD, the muscularis mucosae comprised almost 10% of total wall thickness. Similar findings were also present in a previously characterized experimental model of CD (trinitrobenzene sulfonic acid-induced colitis in rats), particularly in what appeared to be grossly strictured areas.
Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2020666

the acid they use for this disease model of colitis is not naturally found in the intestine, and does not, nor is not meant to fully replicate what is going on in IBD. its used to artificially induce inflammation for general studies and observations, and does not accurately represent what is happening in IBD, scientists know it is only a model of the the inflammation they have created themselves and not the real thing. Therefore, this provides no evidence that "all or any acids cause IBD or inflammation"

QUOTE-The 2,4,6-trinitrobenzene sulfonic acid (TNBS)-induced murine colitis represents an experimental model for human Inflammatory Bowel Disease (IBD). In this model, mice receive an enema containing the contact
sensitizing allergen TNBS in ethanol; the latter of which is given to break the mucosal barrier and allow penetration of TNBS into the bowel wall. This acute model rapidly induces colonic inflammation in a reproducible manner and represents a low-cost, high throughput model.

this quote and link is from a company that provides scientific services and genetic resources to laboratories around the world.
http://jaxmice.jax.org/literature/fa...D_Protocol.pdf
http://www.jax.org/



do you have any references to what this computer generated diagram is supposed to represent? its not a real photo so i suppose it could represent anything right? it could even represent nothing at all.




IN CLOSING:
Hopefully the readers of this thread can now see some of the flaws in Dave Watson's theory and reasoning, and that the term "acid burns" has no solid foundation in the scientific literature.

Otherwise butyric acid(butyrate) has been shown to be antiinflammatory.
http://gut.bmj.com/content/47/3/397.full

Again, Dave Watson has provided no justification for the claim that all acids or any acids in general cause IBD inflammation. It is a very broad, general, ambiguous and inaccurate claim, with no scientific basis.It is a poor interpretation of scientific studies. IT is made up, and fictional.

Last edited by wildbill_52280; 01-24-2013 at 06:02 PM. Reason: noticed that i mixed up my references, the links are now fixed.
01-24-2013, 04:26 AM   #12
Dave Watson
 
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Your comment is complete rubbish and you've ignored the detailed argument and the flow of logic. You need to re-read the whole article!

I show that the idea that CD is an autoimmune disease is very unlikely, and also unlikely is an aggressive immune response considering there are numerous studies that demonstrate that CD sufferers have a weak immune response, unless you intend to twist that somehow.

I've demonstrated a carb link to Crohn's. I've demonstrated that reducing carb comsumption improves Crohn's. That in itself suggests carbs are being used by bacteria.

I have shown bacteria are penetrating the gut lining. Now, connect the dots!

If bacteria in the mouth can produce acid to cause dental disease, could bacteria in the gut produce acid to cause the inflammation/ulcers? Of course they could! I do not know the specific acid being produced, more research will identify that!

I have shown the numerous links between acid burn and Crohn's, including the similarity between CD inflammatory response and a burn inflammatory response.

The diseased tissue in Crohn's can thicken, deform and scar - this is exactly what happens with tissue burns!

All the science is there.

As I mentioned above, I intend to have resections from Crohn's sufferers analyzed by experts in the field of burns, whom I'm sure will confirm that acid burn is responsible for the deformation, scarring and thickening.

Next time before commenting, drop your silly ego! The science above is OVERWHELMING!


So there is no justification for claiming all acids in general cause IBD inflammation. It is a very broad, general, ambiguous and inaccurate claim, with no scientific basis. IT is simply, made up, and fictional.

Last edited by Dave Watson; 01-24-2013 at 09:27 AM.
01-24-2013, 04:39 AM   #13
kiny
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You are saying if you remove the TNF-alpha the crohn's disease improves, the main issue is too much TNF-alpha which is behind tissue damage etc?
01-24-2013, 04:41 AM   #14
Dave Watson
 
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Yes, kiny! In my next article I will explain how excess TNF prevents the inflammation/ulcers from healing!

You are saying if you remove the TNF-alpha the crohn's disease improves, the main issue is too much TNF-alpha which is behind tissue damage etc?
01-24-2013, 04:43 AM   #15
kiny
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Yes, kiny! In my next article I will explain how excess TNF prevents the inflammation/ulcers from healing!
Right, can you explain why etanercept, which is just as effective as infliximab for neutralizing TNF-alpha does not help for crohn's disease at all but infliximab does?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12806611
01-24-2013, 04:54 AM   #16
Dave Watson
 
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I will cover it in my next article. But, it’s simple matter of digging to connect the dots. For example, if CD is all about TNF, then why would Stelara help when it blocks two proteins called IL-12 and IL-23? TNF is considered the master regulator, so is TNF and IL-12 and IL-23 connected? If you dig deep enough you’ll find they are

So, what is it about etanercept that makes it ineffective for CD? Here's a start kiny: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12806611 but I'll cover it in the next article.

Right, can you explain why etanercept, which is just as effective as infliximab for neutralizing TNF-alpha does not help for crohn's disease at all but infliximab does?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12806611
01-24-2013, 05:00 AM   #17
Dave Watson
 
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NO! It will be covered in my next article. It's quite rude to demand answers considering I'm the author of this thread!

We either debate my article in a friendly and intelligent manner, or DO NOT comment in this thread.

You can cover it now we can wait.
01-24-2013, 05:15 AM   #18
wildbill_52280
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Your comment is complete rubbish and you've ignored the detailed argument and the flow of logic. You need to re-read the whole article!

I shown that the idea that CD is an autoimmune disease is very unlikely, and also unlikely is an aggressive immune response considering there are numerous studies that demonstrate that CD sufferers have a weak immune response, unless you intend to twist that somehow.

I've demonstrated a carb link to Crohn's. I've demonstrated that reducing carb comsumption improves Crohn's. That in itself suggests carbs are being used by bacteria.

I have shown bacteria are penetrating the gut lining. Now, connect the dots!

If bacteria in the mouth can produce acid to cause dental disease, could bacteria in the gut produce acid to cause the inflammation/ulcers? Of course they could! I do not know the specific acid being produced, more research will identify that!

I have shown the numerous links between acid burn and Crohn's, including the similarity between CD inflammatory response and a burn inflammatory response.

The diseased tissue in Crohn's can thicken, deform and scar - this is exactly what happens with tissue burns!

All the science is there.

As I mentioned above, I intend to have resections from Crohn's sufferers analyzed by experts in the field of burns, whom I'm sure will confirm that acid burn is responsible for the deformation, scarring and thickening.

Next time before commenting, drop your silly ego! The science above is OVERWHELMING!
Dear Mr. Watson,
I am asking politely if you could please explain what you mean by saying my comment is "complete rubbish"? Please, be specific, which parts are "complete rubbish".

Thank you kind sir.
01-24-2013, 05:20 AM   #19
Dave Watson
 
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It's quite obvious you are not interested in debating this article in an intelligent and friendly manner. In fact, I think your goal is to undermine it.

I will PM David now and ask him to remove your posts and prevent you from commenting in my threads any further.

Hopefully the readers of this thread can now see some of the flaws in Dave Watson's theory and reasoning, and that the term "acid burns" has no solid foundation in the scientific literature.

Otherwise butyric acid(butyrate) has been shown to be antiinflammatory.
http://gut.bmj.com/content/47/3/397.full

Again, Dave Watson has provided no justification for the claim that all acids or any acids in general cause IBD inflammation. It is a very broad, general, ambiguous and inaccurate claim, with no scientific basis.It is a poor interpretation of scientific studies. IT is made up, and fictional.

Dear Mr. Watson,
I am asking politely if you could please explain what you mean by saying my comment is "complete rubbish"? Please, be specific.

Thank you kind sir.
01-24-2013, 06:05 AM   #20
Dave Watson
 
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Let me do a quick summary of my article.

We do not know the cause of CD, so we have to completely open-minded. Decades ago Barry Marshall suggested bacteria could cause stomach inflammation and ulcers and he was laughed at. But, with persistence he was proven right.

Today, I’m suggesting bacteria ferment sugars to produce acid that cause the inflammation/ulcers in Crohn’s. Initially, it’s hard to believe but my article makes a compelling argument.

There’s no evidence that Crohn’s is an autoimmune disease or CD sufferers have an aggressive immune response. In fact, the available evidence suggests the exact opposite. So, what is causing the tissue damage?

Sugars and starches are linked to Crohn’s.

Sugar/starch reduction can improve Crohn’s

Bacteria penetrating the gut lining is proven in Crohn’s.

We know dental disease is caused by bacteria in the mouth fermenting sugars to produce acid, so could this occur in the gut? Of course it’s possible.

I’ve shown all the evidence linking Crohn’s and an acid burn.

The diseased tissue in Crohn’s can be deformed, thickened and scarred! Deformity, thickening and scarring occur in acid burns!

My goal now is to have experts in the field of burns analyse the deformed, thickened and scarred tissue from Crohn’s sufferers to see if there’s evidence of acid burning, and I’m confident they will find it.This potentially a huge breakthrough in Crohn’s!

In my next article I show overwhelming evidence why the inflammation/ulcers don't heal or heal very slowly, again this is potentially, another huge breakthrough in Crohn's.

Last edited by Dave Watson; 01-24-2013 at 06:24 AM.
01-24-2013, 07:09 AM   #21
rollinstone
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Let me do a quick summary of my article.

We do not know the cause of CD, so we have to completely open-minded. Decades ago Barry Marshall suggested bacteria could cause stomach inflammation and ulcers and he was laughed at. But, with persistence he was proven right.

Today, I’m suggesting bacteria ferment sugars to produce acid that cause the inflammation/ulcers in Crohn’s. Initially, it’s hard to believe but my article makes a compelling argument.

There’s no evidence that Crohn’s is an autoimmune disease or CD sufferers have an aggressive immune response. In fact, the available evidence suggests the exact opposite. So, what is causing the tissue damage?

Sugars and starches are linked to Crohn’s.

Sugar/starch reduction can improve Crohn’s

Bacteria penetrating the gut lining is proven in Crohn’s.

We know dental disease is caused by bacteria in the mouth fermenting sugars to produce acid, so could this occur in the gut? Of course it’s possible.

I’ve shown all the evidence linking Crohn’s and an acid burn.

The diseased tissue in Crohn’s can be deformed, thickened and scarred! Deformity, thickening and scarring occur in acid burns!

My goal now is to have experts in the field of burns analyse the deformed, thickened and scarred tissue from Crohn’s sufferers to see if there’s evidence of acid burning, and I’m confident they will find it.This potentially a huge breakthrough in Crohn’s!

In my next article I show overwhelming evidence why the inflammation/ulcers don't heal or heal very slowly, again this is potentially, another huge breakthrough in Crohn's.
Dave, I appreciate the research you have done, but you use the word "evidence" too much and I think that's what frustrates wildbill and kiny, because the fact is its not evidence, it is however an interesting hypothesis, and there could certainly be a link to fermented carbs and acid development in the gut when one considers dental issues, but the pH of the gut and mouth are so vastly different not to mention other acids used in some of the links in which researchers purposely used to induce acid burn. In summary, I am glad you are looking into this as I think all leads need to be followed in regards to Crohn's. But it's not evidence until its been proven, and even then, giving the nature of science there's always a chance of variance.
01-24-2013, 07:17 AM   #22
Dave Watson
 
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Thanks for your comment Joshuaaa.

Although, I do believe I've used the term 'evidence' accurately. For example:

There is significant evidence that carbs are somehow linked to Crohn's. The most recent study showed that reducing carbs improved Crohn's, and this is supported by other studies.

There is evidence of bacteria penetrating the gut lining, as mentioned in the above studies.

There is evidence that diseased tissue is thickened, scarred and deformed.

There is no evidence that Crohn's is an autoimmune disease or CD sufferers have an aggressive immune response.

Dave, I appreciate the research you have done, but you use the word "evidence" too much and I think that's what frustrates wildbill and kiny, because the fact is its not evidence, it is however an interesting hypothesis, and there could certainly be a link to fermented carbs and acid development in the gut when one considers dental issues, but the pH of the gut and mouth are so vastly different not to mention other acids used in some of the links in which researchers purposely used to induce acid burn. In summary, I am glad you are looking into this as I think all leads need to be followed in regards to Crohn's. But it's not evidence until its been proven, and even then, giving the nature of science there's always a chance of variance.
01-24-2013, 07:43 AM   #23
rollinstone
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When you state it simply and concisely like that one can certainly see why your hypothesis should be tested. But how would one get evidence that it is infact those same fermented carbs that are causing the burning, for instance, say we get the resected pieces of human gut, you would need healthy gut as well as a control, I don't see how it could happen, how will they be able to determine whether or not the acid indeed caused the inflammation and ulceration, also how come the ulceration in Crohn's seems to be patchy through out the infected region. (I'm not asking you directly, just saying there are other variables to consider)
01-24-2013, 09:05 AM   #24
Dave Watson
 
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Thanks Josh, that's the whole point in posting the article. There's enough evidence to seriously pursue this.

At the end of my next article I will do a quick summary to simplify the points I'm making.

Give me some time and I'll respond to your main question.

When you state it simply and concisely like that one can certainly see why your hypothesis should be tested. But how would one get evidence that it is infact those same fermented carbs that are causing the burning, for instance, say we get the resected pieces of human gut, you would need healthy gut as well as a control, I don't see how it could happen, how will they be able to determine whether or not the acid indeed caused the inflammation and ulceration, also how come the ulceration in Crohn's seems to be patchy through out the infected region. (I'm not asking you directly, just saying there are other variables to consider)
01-24-2013, 09:15 AM   #25
nitty
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Speaking as a lay person, and not very scientifically knowledgable, please can you explain how, if CD is caused by a weakened immune system, how is it that drugs which suppress the immune system then improve my symptoms?

Please note: I am not asking this to doubt your information, it's just that I don't really understand how it works.
01-24-2013, 09:50 AM   #26
Beach
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Just to throw some contrarian information out there - at least on the dentist part - and it was something I even mentioned in an earlier post about the connection to dental health, bacteria and other health conditions - i don't believe that it has been proven that bacteria, acid and sugars cause dental decay. it is a theory, but from at least what I read in the book Cure Tooth Decay by Ramiel Nagel it has not been proven. Additionally, bacteria will perish in a 20% or greater sugar solution. If dentistry is correct about bacteria, then a high sugar diet should eliminate tooth decay.

Tooth decay has been created in studies with a diet low in vitamin C. And overall, it seems that the theories about diet, lack of nutrition, and hormones produced in the body play a central role in causing dental issues and is more likely than bacteria.
01-24-2013, 10:06 AM   #27
Ihurt
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Steroids are like a bandaid. They do NOT really cure anything. They help with inflammation more so, but not actually the disease itself which is why when you stop the steroids, the pain and inflammation come right back. Think about it, they put people on steroids for a lot of different health issues. Just back in august I had a nasty sinus thing going on and I was put on the steorids for a week. Yeah, it helped me some with taking down the inflammation but as soon as I stopped them, my issues did come back.

As far this whole discussion goes on what causes crohns, well that is the million dollar question. We can go round and round trying to figure it out, but in the end, it is way to complex! Each individual is different and there may be MANY cuases out there. Do I think it is autoimmune?? NO, I dont. Autoimmune is just a word they like to throw around when they have NO clue what is wrong with you. After battling chronic illness for the last 9 years I can say with complete certainty that doctors do NOT have much knowledge when it comes to these chronic diseases.

Example: You take one person with crohns and they get drastically better while taking antibiotics. Well in that case, maybe a bacteria is the cause. Yet you can have another person with crohns who takes antibiotics and gets NO relief. Maybe that persons crohn's is caused by something else. Also I am betting there are other diseases out there that mimic crohn's disease, but is something different all together. Unfortunately, doctors just do not know the amswers to this. Neither do the researchers.


Sure, Barry Marshall did come to find that "most" stomach ulcers were due to the H-pylori bacteria. That was a great find indeed. In fact I can bet almost anything that ALL chronic diseases are caused by an infection of some sort. Bacterial, viral, parasitic, I mean the list can go on and on. Also the way a persons body reacts is also an important factor. This is where immune system comes into play. Some people with crohn's manage the disease ok for the most part and likley because they have a strong immune system that keeps things at bay. Then you have ones that are doing very bad, well for those it is due to a weak immune system. That makes more sense than saying these diseases are autoimmune and due to an overactive immune system.

I had a friend who had lupus years ago. She suffered greatly with it. Well one day she caught a cold and within a month she died from it. It messed her lungs up very bad. The doctors of course were quick to tell her husband that it was because her body was attacking itself. No, I am sorry, but I tend to think more on the side of that her immune system was just so weak that the cold set into a motion a nasty infection that she could not fight. I often wonder if giving steroids to people in the presence of these infectious type diseases makes them worse since steroids are known to lower your immune system. I mean I think maybe people get this false feeling of wellness while on steroids because yes, steroids do take inflamation down, but they are not really doing anything for the disease itself.

Anyhow, bottom line is this, yeah, it would be great if someone could come up with a reason for crohn's and many other chronic diseases out there, but it is just so complex. I mean each person is different in their makeup, no person is the same. This is why not one treatment will work for every person. It also has a lot to do with our DNA. Why do you think when people were dying like flies back when the black plague was around, yet there were people who were not affected by it at all. Immune system does play a big role in this, but when I say immune system, I do not mean like autoimmune. That is a bullshit word that some doctor came up with. I mean more like some people having a weaker immune deficiency than others do.







Speaking as a lay person, and not very scientifically knowledgable, please can you explain how, if CD is caused by a weakened immune system, how is it that drugs which suppress the immune system then improve my symptoms?

Please note: I am not asking this to doubt your information, it's just that I don't really understand how it works.
01-24-2013, 11:05 AM   #28
Clash
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Steroids are like a bandaid. They do NOT really cure anything. They help with inflammation more so, but not actually the disease itself which is why when you stop the steroids, the pain and inflammation come right back. Think about it, they put people on steroids for a lot of different health issues. Just back in august I had a nasty sinus thing going on and I was put on the steorids for a week. Yeah, it helped me some with taking down the inflammation but as soon as I stopped them, my issues did come back.
Nitty, was probably referring to the immunosuppressants like Imuran/6MP/Methotrexate which are the maintenance meds often used to keep CD under control once tapered off the steroids.
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Clash
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PAST MEDS: remicade, oral mtx, humira
01-24-2013, 11:34 AM   #29
nitty
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Yes, Clash, that is what I was trying to find out. How does azathioprine help by suppressing the immune system if the theory is that the immune system is already weak (as opposed to the theory of an over-reactive immune system)?
01-24-2013, 01:16 PM   #30
Sarah50
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I don't have the knowledge or understanding about Crohn's, the medications, diets, etc. like many of you do. I'm newly diagnosed Nov 2012.

Dave, what I don't understand about your hypothesis - in terms that I understand, is once I was put on medication (Asacol) and a "low residue diet" which is a lot of carbs (and for some reason, I am eating more sugar than I ever have - candy, daily) you would think my Crohn's would flare up, right? (All of my symptoms disappeared about 6 weeks after being on the medication and diet.)

Because you stated, from what you researched,

"There is significant evidence that carbs are somehow linked to Crohn's. The most recent study showed that reducing carbs improved Crohn's, and this is supported by other studies." And:

"Sugars and starches are linked to Crohn’s."

"Sugar/starch reduction can improve Crohn’s"

Why did I go into remission when I went on a low res (high carb) diet, plus eating sugar (candy and cookies or ice cream) almost every day?? I know the Asacol is reducing inflammation, so maybe that's why I'm not having problems??? BUT... when I eat food that is not on the diet, like fruit (with skin) in yogurt or salads, my symptoms come back???

Maybe I don't understand enough and my example does not apply to your hypothesis, but if it does, do you have any feeling about it? Or maybe I'm jumping the gun here.

Again, I really appreciate your time and effort into figuring out what causes Crohn's. It's great info and certainly up for discussion. I hope that everyone here can state their opinions without getting personal / put downs - so not necessary. ALL opinions should be allowed here as long as everyone doesn't attack anyone for their opinions.
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Crohn's Disease Forum » General IBD Discussion » The Real Cause of Inflammation/Ulcers In Crohn’s Guts? (SHOCKING)
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