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View Poll Results: Is Mycobacterium Avium Sub-species Paratuberculosis the cause of Crohn's disease?
Yes, Koch's postulates have been met, it is therefore proven to be the cause 11 32.35%
Maybe, I need more proof 16 47.06%
No, the cause of Crohn's is unknown 6 17.65%
My gastroenterologist tells me it isn't the cause and I believe her/him 0 0%
I don't know what MAP is 1 2.94%
Voters: 34. You may not vote on this poll

 
08-14-2014, 12:46 PM   #31
JMC
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I would say the cause of crohn's disease is damage to the microbiome which then allows a bacteria like MAP to flourish and cause greater levels of inflammation, in a similar way to other similar Gi disease, like C. difficile infection which presents itself with similar symptoms like never ending diarhea and occasionally inflammation.
But the point was, where is the proof for that view? Borody is saying it does not exist...

It also strikes me that we are treating Crohn's as "special" and more complicated than other illnesses rather than assuming the simpler case that there is an obvious pathogen as the cause. What is the justification for that?

There are other pathogens that are implicated in crohn's other then MAP, look up studies on Adherent Invasive Eschercia Coli (AEIC) in relation to crohn's and you'll see it goes beyond just MAP
That is acknowledged in the Borody paper, which is why he describes it as a syndrome. I think the interesting question is this: If you take all the patients with Crohn's Disease Syndrome, what percentage would you find were due to MAP and those due to AIEC and those due to other bacteria? What people like Prof John Hermon-Taylor, Borody and Dr Saleh Naser are saying is that the vast majority (over 90% is JHT's claim) are due to MAP.

My other concern with the microbiome projects is that they are too vague and have no real targets or objectives. What needs to be fixed and how, to make people with Crohn's better? To me, it sounds like the sort of project (which let's face it, some scientists love) you could throw a huge amount and time and money at without any tangible results.
08-14-2014, 01:08 PM   #32
wildbill_52280
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But the point was, where is the proof for that view? Borody is saying it does not exist...

It also strikes me that we are treating Crohn's as "special" and more complicated than other illnesses rather than assuming the simpler case that there is an obvious pathogen as the cause. What is the justification for that?


That is acknowledged in the Borody paper, which is why he describes it as a syndrome. I think the interesting question is this: If you take all the patients with Crohn's Disease Syndrome, what percentage would you find were due to MAP and those due to AIEC and those due to other bacteria? What people like Prof John Hermon-Taylor, Borody and Dr Saleh Naser are saying is that the vast majority (over 90% is JHT's claim) are due to MAP.

My other concern with the microbiome projects is that they are too vague and have no real targets or objectives. What needs to be fixed and how, to make people with Crohn's better? To me, it sounds like the sort of project (which let's face it, some scientists love) you could throw a huge amount and time and money at without any tangible results.
I think the only way to prove a pathogen as the cause with absolute highest degree of certainty is to infect a human being with it and see what happens, but that is never going to happen due to ethics.

Therefore, we are limited to really good theories, and really good theories must explain all scientific evidence. It must explain the facts, and not ignore facts such as why some people are being cured with a fecal transplant, why is AIEC also implicated in crohn's as well as MAP, why is butyrate production lower in ibd, why is there a lack of diversity in butyrate producing bacteria in IBD, why is it that the bacteria that are missing also may be the most potent regulators of inflammation? Why do people that take antibiotics have a greater susceptibility to IBD? Why is there a north south gradient in IBD suggesting vitamin d deficits create susceptibility? The hygiene hypothesis AKA missing bacteria hypothesis, to me seems the best.


In regards to calling it a syndrome, that's fine. We can subdivide it as there may be some differences that arise yet, to further define the disease beyond the simplest of symptoms such as diarrhea or inflammation. I believe these more precise differences in severity and symptoms may all be then again be retraced back to differences in pathogens that take over in relation to differences in which bacteria that are missing. No person may be found to have precisely the same amount of missing bacteria, nor to have precisely the same pathogens, and then we may have some genes that are slightly different to. But in the end, IBD is still inflammation with diarrhea. It's great we can break down every single molecule as far as possible and that is what is great about reductionism in modern science, but it may not be that necessary to subdivide everything so much. It's diarrhea with inflammation as far as I'm concerned.


The microbiome project was just completed 1-2 years ago, now we have a definition of normal to a higher degree then before to which we can judge with more accuracy what is considered abnormal. Those ARE the objectives that have been completed and are still underway, and it didn't cost much at all, perhaps under 50 million but don't quote me. It cost like 10 billion a month for the iraq war in comparison. It doesn't cost that much to do science as far as i recall, its a great investment for public good, its the iraq war that may have been a waste, its STILL not over. Do you remember the stories of hundred of millions of dollars on pallets that have been looted or the stockpiles of weapons that were stolen and likely in the hands of isis right now? they are bigger and stronger now. OK, way off topic haha.

I'm always willing to change my views in regards to better evidence, but remember my sources of evidence are derived from my own experience. But i am still evaluating the map theory so ill see what happens, but im pretty firm on the microbiome damage theory right now.
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Last edited by wildbill_52280; 08-14-2014 at 08:54 PM.
08-15-2014, 07:32 AM   #33
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Somewhat related to this topic, this study just came out on how a diseased state alters metabolic path of bacteria and though covering mouth community, suggests implications in CD as well. Might offer research tools on approaches to restoring healthy commensal gut balance. https://www.tacc.utexas.edu/news/fea...mputers-reveal
08-16-2014, 12:31 PM   #34
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[I]'The answer is in the attached paper para "Inflammation in CD caused by a two tier co-operative pathogenic mechanism". The segments of gross inflammation are not caused by a direct head-to-head confrontation between MAP and the immune system, as in TB. The primary enabling cause is because MAP infection which is throughout the gut, dysregulates the immune and enteric nervous systems which makes the gut leaky.'
Their theory of it causing immune system dysregulation is of interest to me as the SSI clinical trial operators feels the primary reason for it working is it resets the immune system.
08-16-2014, 01:10 PM   #35
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It is, imho, very possibly that the SSI is assisting the body to clear either active or latent infections. Or to effectively deal with infections as a 'healthy' host would. Something to do with infections...

I'll deffer to the trial researchers. As David mentions, they believe that the SSI resets the immune system and that fits very well with my experience.


My first two thoughts are:


"Could the SSI help the body to clear MAP outright?"

and

"Could the SSI be 'resetting' the immune system in a way that repairs the damage caused by MAP?"


Interesting stuff.
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08-16-2014, 05:10 PM   #36
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Their theory of it causing immune system dysregulation is of interest to me as the SSI clinical trial operators feels the primary reason for it working is it resets the immune system.
From my limited knowledge, the t-cell vaccine that Hermon-Taylor at crohnsmapvaccine has developed also 'resets' the immune system, by enabling the immune system to effectively kill off the MAP bacteria. It is not an anti-biotic pill that treats the symptoms, it aims to fix the immune system of people with crohns and has worked, already, on mice and cattle that present the crohns symptoms.

Like a lot of this crohn's stuff - and life in general - there are dozens of 'teams' all working towards the same result, to cure crohns…all with the same interest/intention, to make ourselves feel better and to make other people better. We should all be supportive of each other and offer no resistance to any study that is working towards a cure.



There is no way I would rule out the SSI trial, mapvaccine or any other relevant potential cure to Crohn's.

I tip my hat to every one on this forum that is trying to raise awareness of potential cures and dealing with the incessant skepticism that is thrown back at you from the so called 'experts'.
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08-16-2014, 05:17 PM   #37
AJC - Australia
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[QUOTE=wildbill_52280;806492]I think the only way to prove a pathogen as the cause with absolute highest degree of certainty is to infect a human being with it and see what happens, but that is never going to happen due to ethics.

But they can harvest the MAP pathogen from someone with Crohn's then put it into a cow (that was previously healthy) who then develops chronic infammation of the intestine. They then extract the map pathogen from the now diseased cow and harvest the bacteria in a process known as 'koch's postulates' which is a scientific method for determining causality.

This has been done, years ago. --> proving that MAP bacteria can cause Crohn's disease.

They can operate on someone with chronic Crohn's, then investigate the removed tissue and find a rampant MAP infection. The patient re-develops Crohns disease, after surgery, and they treat it with anti biotics, targetted at killing MAP and it works, the crohns abates while taking those anti biotics.

Given that Crohn's only affects 20 odd people per 100, 000 - they would have to have a pretty good idea that the person receiving the pathogen (in a trial) had the genetic predisposition before they gave them a heavy dose of the bacteria.

Maybe they could give it to someone who has Crohn's in remission, but then again, who would want to risk their life with it???
08-16-2014, 09:06 PM   #38
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IMHO I also believe crohns is an umbrella term for multiple causative pathogens, MAP without a doubt being one, and AIEC being another.. Hopefully we get some solid break throughs sooner than later.
09-10-2014, 07:59 AM   #39
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Up until about 2 years ago, I had never heard of Crohn's Disease. Since I've been diagnosed, off the top of my head I know now of 10 people within my workplace who also have it. For a relatively small staff pool, that ratio raises concern for me.

I work within the animal care industry which makes me believe that whilst predisposition to the disease may exist, a form of bacteria may "activate" the disease.

Are there any papers out there that report on the hypothesis of animal to human transmission?
09-10-2014, 09:06 AM   #40
D Bergy
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I don't think you can adequately explain the varied effects of Crohn's disease without the inclusion of a mycoplasma infection.

We have symptoms of chronic fatigue, arthritis, impaired immune response, immune system mistakenly attacking non threatening microbes or body tissue.
Immune system unable to overcome infections. The list goes on.

MAP, AIEC, plus Mycoplasma = Crohns. That is what my unorthodox experimentation tells me. My results of treating these, again unorthodox, also support it at least in my case.

Some interesting info on Mycoplasma from Dr. Nicholson. It is pretty easy to see the possible role of this parasitic pathogen in Crohns and a host of other mysterious diseases.

http://www.immed.org/fatigue_illness_research.html

Dan
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09-10-2014, 11:43 AM   #41
mf15
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Lara: Here you go here is one on goat herders in india.
You can search here for MAP or google for MAP and crohn's you will find
much info. What kind of animals do you work with, are any sick.
You can also search crohns clusters.
Old Mike
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21703899

I urgently suggest that you contact Dr. Thomas Borody, you are even
in the same town. I suspect he might be interested in your Crohn's cluster.
Tell them you work with animals and have a IBD cluster,at work.
There have been a few other clusters,but this one is at his front door.
Its possible that since this cluster is in his backyard,he might be able to make
some sort of breakthrough,regarding animals,MAP and human IBD.
Of course there is always a chance that since IBD is high in Australia that 10 people just happen to work at the same place,but that seems a bit unlikely.
http://www.cdd.com.au/pages/contact.html

Last edited by mf15; 09-10-2014 at 03:47 PM.
09-10-2014, 03:12 PM   #42
worriedboy
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Lara,

Crohns clusterization is not unheard of...
There are groups which show number of cases much more than the averag. This supports the claim that an environmental factor is invovled. Yet, still not isolated. Those 10 cases are all CD or also UC ? Out of how many people ?
09-10-2014, 05:53 PM   #43
AJC - Australia
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lara i agree, notify the centre of digestive diseases about this…it may help with the research!
09-11-2014, 10:11 PM   #44
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Mf15 that was a very interesting read. Thank you for sharing.

All cases are CD and all of our animals are healthy with regular check ups (we are actually a AQIS quarantine zone, so staff have to undergo regular testing for various zoonotic diseases also).

I will notify the CDD for sure, if it can help only a little bit, I'd still be ecstatic.
06-10-2016, 07:34 PM   #45
Scared1
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From my limited knowledge, the t-cell vaccine that Hermon-Taylor at crohnsmapvaccine has developed also 'resets' the immune system, by enabling the immune system to effectively kill off the MAP bacteria. It is not an anti-biotic pill that treats the symptoms, it aims to fix the immune system of people with crohns and has worked, already, on mice and cattle that present the crohns symptoms.

Like a lot of this crohn's stuff - and life in general - there are dozens of 'teams' all working towards the same result, to cure crohns…all with the same interest/intention, to make ourselves feel better and to make other people better. We should all be supportive of each other and offer no resistance to any study that is working towards a cure.



There is no way I would rule out the SSI trial, mapvaccine or any other relevant potential cure to Crohn's.

I tip my hat to every one on this forum that is trying to raise awareness of potential cures and dealing with the incessant skepticism that is thrown back at you from the so called 'experts'.
Amen to that!:-) Anything that is a potential cause should be studied in my opinion, and never discouraged. I think though that reading from a lot of people's experience, many of the skepticism comes from those that have dealt with this disease for so long, perhaps they are just "tired" and I hope that relief comes eventually in the form of a cure. The MAP issue - hopefully, within the next 2 years, we will see a make it or break it. If they break it - then on to the next one. But if they make it....oh wow, that would be HUGE! And there is no reason to think in my opinion that it's not a viable and realistic possibility - considering that people have had life-changing experiences using the Anti-MAP - so if a vaccine would do what the antibiotics would do, no reason to think to think that for those people, their "remission/cure" would continue once they stop the anti-map after the vaccine becomes available. I just find it disheartening that its taking so long for the vaccine to come to fruition - where what they are asking for isn't really that much and why hasn't it been funded yet:-(
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