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Crohn's Disease Forum » Diet, Fitness, and Supplements » Ketogenic diets, any risks?


 
11-13-2016, 04:24 PM   #31
Tony71
 
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Chron2357 read my post in :My elimination diet

Oki, too bad cause honey is'nt just ordinary sugar! It should be good food for our stomach beneficial for good bacterias and bad for candida, virus, bad bacterias, parasites!!!! But it's the amount maybe our crossing with other bad sugar/carbs!? I eat maybe 1-3 teaspoons/day, raw not in tea. Its too hot and the honey looses its purpose.
But if you cant eat it you cant. Can it be other food you eat that messes everything up. For example i wouldn't eat pasta made by corn. Turbosugar and bad for us. One ingredient low lectine food and no gluten/dairy and i have got a new life in 7weeks and i mean a totally new life in almost every aspect. Energy, health, symptoms i had for 18 years gone in 7weeks or reduced, brainfunction, results at the gym etc etc...... and i have no allergies found whatsoever!!!!!!

I both have an education as a chef and in nutrition but we all have a different story. I was stubborn with my old/bad diet until my latest flare. Now like i said its a different story
11-14-2016, 05:31 PM   #32
hugh
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Tony, honey messes me up. It's mostly just sugar.
**************************************************

I read this one just now: http://www.thepaleomom.com/how-many-...should-you-eat

A good read.
It is a good read, she's a good source of info.

You are way outside 'guy on a forum said try this' territory, so keep that in mind.

Firstly, is there still anything out of a packet in your diet (stabilisers, preservatives, 'natural' flavours, premixed, etc) that you might be overlooking?

Secondly, can you have a tablespoon of starch at a time, rather than a plateful.
If one of your problems is FODMAPS malabsorption then you might slip under the bloating/vomiting threshold - just a thought, and way outside anything that anybody but you can decide on.....
Starches like rice (i know it is not Paleo AIP, but not loosing weight is probably a priority) break down to glucose, no fructose. A tablespoon 8 times a day?

Thirdly, have you been tested for secondary conditions - candida, disbiosis, parasites, etc?

Heard good things about cabbage juice (sip tiny amount (couple of teaspoons) and test then build up). Vegetable juice in general (celery is a good base) but VERY individual and not even sure about suggesting it....

Best of luck
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11-14-2016, 08:54 PM   #33
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Firstly, is there still anything out of a packet in your diet (stabilisers, preservatives, 'natural' flavours, premixed, etc) that you might be overlooking?
No, absolutely not. I'm very careful.


Secondly, can you have a tablespoon of starch at a time, rather than a plateful.
If one of your problems is FODMAPS malabsorption then you might slip under the bloating/vomiting threshold - just a thought, and way outside anything that anybody but you can decide on.....
Starches like rice (i know it is not Paleo AIP, but not loosing weight is probably a priority) break down to glucose, no fructose. A tablespoon 8 times a day?
I don't get digestive problems from rice based starches; but after eating rice (which I always try to eat very little in every meal) I get palpitations, I get an unresistable feeling of sleepiness and my mental sharpness, my productivity in general drops severely.
But, I get this from any kind of carbohydrates, be it polysaccharides or monosaccharides depending on the dosage.

I don't have low potassium or low magnesium or low iron... ,and I don't have insulin problems, thyroid problems etc... that is contributing (or causing) to this effect.

My very recent experimentation with bananas are going a little better, but time will tell. I decreased the quantity of bananas I eat and it has made a positive effect on my digestive system, comparing to higher doses. This reminds me of Paracelcus' maxim "The dose makes the poison".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_dose_makes_the_poison

Thirdly, have you been tested for secondary conditions - candida, disbiosis, parasites, etc?
I've been tested for candida and parasites, don't have these problems. As for dysbiosis, don't we, Crohn's patients, all have it? I do not think mine is more severe than others. On the contrary, mine is probably a little better than others.

Heard good things about cabbage juice (sip tiny amount (couple of teaspoons) and test then build up). Vegetable juice in general (celery is a good base) but VERY individual and not even sure about suggesting it....

I experimented with red cabbage juice in the past, more then twice. It causes discomfort for me. I've also tried vegetable juices (namely: combinating celery, lettuce, carrots, and a small apple). While it doesn't give me any problems, I prefer to eat cooked veggies rather then drink their juices because
1)I want to get more fiber in my diet.
2)In relation to that, solid veggies prevent me from eating too many meals in a day. It has to do with blood sugar, you know.

Nevertheless, it's good that you reminded me the celery. I completely forgot that one. I'll add it to my diet.

With my banana experiment, at this point, this will be a waiting game for me I guess. Maybe it'll turn out OK and I can add bananas to my diet.

Best of luck
Thank you again. Goodbye.
11-16-2016, 11:08 AM   #34
Crohn2357
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I've been eating bananas for the last 3 days, and I've been getting increasingly worse. I didn't have any abdominal pain 3 days ago (and before that...) now I have abdominal pain. Eating bananas also aggravated the narrowing around my stoma area large intestine. Fruits clearly trigger Crohn's flares for me, this isn't the first (or second, third...) time this is happening.

Sometimes you have to accept the fact and move on I guess. From now on, I'll only eat cooked veggies as carb sources.
Besides, veggies have low glycemic index which prevents too much fatigue after eating.

Still, it was a good try.

Last edited by Crohn2357; 11-16-2016 at 11:23 AM.
11-20-2016, 01:25 AM   #35
hugh
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been thinking and all i can add is:
slow cooked gelatinous stews,
bone broth,
gelatin and collagen hydrolysate,
and if you can tolerate, half teaspoon of liquid off sauerkraut, building up slowly to real amounts
11-21-2016, 05:33 AM   #36
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hugh, thanks. Collagen hydrolysate isn't available here, but your advice reminded me l-glutamine powders I used to take. I'll start taking them again. I think it would help.

I have only recently been using L-Glutamine on more regular basis. I have to say it is one supplement that has a quite noticeable effect. The thing I notice is the ability to eat and drink things that typically are irritating to my intestinal tract.

I drink a lot of coffee and when I am flared, I can't tolerate it at all. Since it is an easy way to gauge my intestinal irritation, I use the amount of coffee I am able to drink as a guide to how things are going in there.

When using the glutamine, I am able to drink most any amount of coffee without irritation or cramping that comes with drinking a lot of it.

I read that the lack of this amino acid may be connected to Crohns. It certainly seems it is beneficial for me either way. For something I expected very little of, it certainly was a pleasant surprise. It really does seem to have a protective effect on the intestinal tract.

Dan
glutamine is involved in tissue repair and wound healing

not just natural practitioners use it, ask a hospital what they give a patient with severe bleeding by trauma, often it includes glutamine at 30-50 grams through IV

I take it, since it has a very high toxicity limit.
the small intestine use glutamine extensively, the colon does not.
Edit:This new Cochrane review seems a bit discouraging now, but it doesn't matter really. I'll use it because I still think it would help my digestive system, and besides, l-glutamine helps with sugar craves too. It also helps with energy levels, mental focus etc...
http://paleoleap.com/glutamine/
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/inmag8.htm

Last edited by Crohn2357; 11-21-2016 at 03:48 PM.
11-21-2016, 04:57 PM   #37
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Yeah, I looked into l-glutamine and it seems to be really helpful for alot of people. But I have anxiety issues so that's why I concentrated of getting it from foods (all the other associated amino acids in balance), and it seems to help.
For every one article against it I find 10 or more in favour.
Thought this was good, slowly increase dosage, stop if there are issues, not for everyone etc...
http://scdlifestyle.com/2015/09/l-glutamine-7-dos-and-donts/
11-21-2016, 05:47 PM   #38
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I too have anxiety issues, so maybe I should do as you do.

What I really want to achieve is increasing my mental focus, my concentration. I want to improve my cerebral performance, productivity etc... via nutrition.

You see, my fields of study are highly abstract (philosophy of mathematics and sciences in general, modern logic, axiomatic systems...) and I'm actually having real problems with studying them due to concentration issues, low energy, low blood pressure... I also have an overactive imagination that makes studying a little harder. Not being able to study properly, in turn, causes stress and makes me feel bad.

I'm wondering if you can help me with this? I greatly appreciate your advices.

Some background info on my current state:
My diet is AIP for more than two years. My health is good (MRI and blood tests show my Crohn's is in generally behaving good).

I get extensive blood tests regularly. No hormonal or any other kinds of problems... Blood sugar is good. Thyroid functions are good. Iron levels, hemoglobin levels are good. electrolyte levels are good etc...

My diet consists of two things, actually quite simple:
Fish/organic chicken/red meat + veggies cooked with lard.

Sometimes I eat walnuts, that's all.

Increasing vegetables I eat helps with blood glucose levels and alertness. If I don't eat enough carbs I crave sugar... So I try to eat enough veggies (cauliflowers, squashes and carrots generally) in every meal.

I take fish oil for mental performance. It helps a little.

I recently increased my salt intake and drink more water to normalize my blood pressure.

I take vit c, vit d, magnesium and calcium as supplements.

I'm especially exhausted after eating a meal. One possible explanation I give for this effect is: Low blood pressure after eating (postprandial hypotension).
Postprandial hypotension is a sudden drop in blood pressure after eating. It affects mostly older adults.

Just as gravity pulls blood to your feet when you stand, a large amount of blood flows to your digestive tract after you eat.

Ordinarily, your body counteracts this by increasing your heart rate and constricting certain blood vessels to help maintain normal blood pressure. But in some people these mechanisms fail, leading to dizziness, faintness and falls.
http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-c...s/con-20032298

Another mechanisms involved: https://www.quora.com/Why-do-I-exper...e-after-eating
*****************************

Take great care.

Last edited by Crohn2357; 11-21-2016 at 06:10 PM.
11-21-2016, 06:59 PM   #39
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Sorry to hear about all food problems your having i too have problems with "raw" bananas so i have a new favourite dish. Often eat this for breakfast, it's astart for a king I fry 150gr diced chicken filet in ghee and then adding a "green" diced eco-banana, little garlic powder and salt and in the end adding 100gr pre-boiled white ris, i only eat uncke ben's white rice it works great for me! then tasting of with a touch of soy sauce.

About you asking why your rectum part is being a mess but nothing goes there, it sounds like increased inflammation, then you maybe should eat a lot of anti-inflammatory food/drinks: ghee, "cold" oliveoil, coconut oil, boil of curcumin/ginger shotting it morning/evening, peppermint tea and most important for me is stay away from gluten, lectines- for me the worse are tomatoes, all kind of peppers... Dairy is ok for me sometimes but i dont eat any dairy 9/10 days! I myself is going all in with my dietnow, the docs wanted to start medicating but im on my way with the diet, well see its a trial and error but ive already got tons of positive affects only in 8weeks on the diet, last no pain beforegoing to toilette. Have had that pain for 20 F* years and the pain is gone in 8weeks without any meds just totally commited to the food, i wanna shoot my old doc. who called me a hypocondriac with ibs and here we are with a two week old Crohns diagnose. Hope you find more ways with your diet to get more everyday joy, good luck! I personally will never try lchf again, it was bad for me but we are different! My polyneuropathy whent bananas on lchf but now on no gluten and a lot of antiinflammatory food its reduced by 60-70% in 8 weeks! Hillarious life, sick for eighteen years, fighting with the system and docs then getting full pension 3 years ago and now i believe i will be 80-90% healthy again and go back to work etc etc this is insain cause it's the food 90-100% for me. Wheat-gluten, lectines, sugar and dairy have together stolen half my life , thats how i see it! Im very happy and thankful now but a bit "bitter" aswell.
Good luck now and interesting reading Hugh's posts aswell
11-21-2016, 07:11 PM   #40
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So here is what i eat a part from food: * =doing it myself
Honey 100% , thymehoney *
Probiotics
Sour cabbage *
Ghee *
Coconut oil
Olive oil
Peppermint tea, green tea
Boil of "curcumin" and ginger ( ginger in at 60 degrees celsius) *
Mineral salt, Himalaya salt
Fresh fish oil
D-vit fresh
Membrasin Omega-7 fresh

And im adjusting all the time. Especially About lectin food and dairy products!
11-21-2016, 07:40 PM   #41
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i can not really offer any more advice, while i read alot about food and crohns, its way too individual, and i'm just some random guy.....
i'm loving plantains and green cooking bananas, just fried in thin slices with coconut oil or lard. less sugar than bananas, but starch and fibre.....

i didn't mean to put you off L-glutamine, just saying i started with bone broth,gelatin, slow cooked meats etc because i am a believer in food first, supplements second. by all means try it and see, you will know soon enough if it is for you.....
since bone broth etc helped i am reviewing brands and will probably start taking L-glutamine in the next few weeks. The more i read [1] , the more sure that i will give it a go.

Still have a strong feeling that we all need good bugs, and starting with half a teaspoon of liquid from a good kraut is worth thinking about.....
Can you tolerate yougurt, kefir any probiotics?

[1] http://healthvibed.com/l-glutamine-f...-gut-syndrome/
11-21-2016, 09:20 PM   #42
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Tony71, I'm happy you've found your way to wellness. I hope it continues for you.

hugh, I'll try cooking green bananas. It's worth a try.

That link you gave is very good, very informative. I'm going to start taking l-glutamine again, and will start slowly, observe the effects etc...

As for good bugs, I can't take them. Fermented foods give me extreme gastrointestinal problems, because I have a bad case of histamine intolerance.

I'm also suspicious about taking probiotics while having intestinal permeability dysfunction (leaky gut). I don't know if I should want to increase bacterial population in my digestive system. I really don't know, this topic seems a bit complicated and unsettled to me.
11-22-2016, 02:10 AM   #43
hugh
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As for good bugs, I can't take them. Fermented foods give me extreme gastrointestinal problems, because I have a bad case of histamine intolerance.

I'm also suspicious about taking probiotics while having intestinal permeability dysfunction (leaky gut). I don't know if I should want to increase bacterial population in my digestive system. I really don't know, this topic seems a bit complicated and unsettled to me.
complicated it is,
biggest non-food source of histamines in the body can be the gut bacteria.
some bacteria produce histamines and some degrade them.
Histamine intolerance is (in my view) pretty much a symptom of disbiosis, but a symptom that prevents you from correcting the disbiosis.
On top of that DOA (diamine oxidase), the enzyme that breaks down histamine is mainly produced by the mucus lining of the intestinal wall.

L-glutamine, gelatin, bone broth, etc to feed mucus lining.
Low carb (but not Very LC) to starve bad bugs, and eventually Kraut juice but below histamine tolerance (the idea being that you will degrade a certain amount of histamine, and only have problems if histamine intake/production exceeds histamine elimination/degradation....)

so maybe once things improve lick the back of a spoon that has been dipped in kraut juice, or see if there is research into specific bacteria that degrade histamines and take low dose of them.......
11-22-2016, 04:02 AM   #44
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Txs Chron and hope you will find something soon.

If you havent tried the "boil off" i do it myself with fresh ginger/turmeric root first you "grate" it, take about 100gr turmeric root 250-350gr ginger root. Use gloves the turmeric colors everything!!!

First boil the grated turmeric in 1.2-1.5L water for 8-10 min. Let it be and when it reaches 60degrees celsius add the grated ginger root and let it be for the night/1-2 days depends on how strong you want it to be. I havent had a cold/flu since starting drinking this, its very antiinflammatory and used in asia for a long long time against bowl/stomach illness also !? Could be worth a try !?

Hugh txs for all info i tried L-glutamine before and i didnt like it but will make bone broth and add that to my daily routine and see if it helps further.

Txs and GL
11-22-2016, 10:43 AM   #45
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I think histamine intolerance comes from dysbiosis and leaky gut. I see your point hugh, it's a good advice; but after all these years, now that I'm feeling good (regarding my health), I don't want to rock the boat.

I did some research on histamine degrading bacteria, but the data is not concrete enough from what I read, and the probiotic product line here is very limited.

I bought l-glutamine powders today, gonna give it a try again.
11-22-2016, 11:24 AM   #46
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You guys mentioned anxiety, concentration etc. Have you looked into Trimethylglycine?
https://examine.com/supplements/Trimethylglycine/

It's something I've been trying lately, its rap sheet makes it out like a miracle supplement.
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11-22-2016, 04:15 PM   #47
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What to do with this?
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...glutamine.aspx

and these:
http://www.rlcure.com/glutamate2.html
http://neurotransporter.org/glutamate.html

It's assumed beneficial effects on brain and mental performance were the main reason I wanted to use l-glutamine. Now I think it would be contradictory. Maybe it's best to get it from meat and don't play with it.

Contrarily, increasing only GABA would actually do good in regards to calmness, focus, reducing anxiety and racing thoughts - from what I understand.
11-22-2016, 06:48 PM   #48
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yeah, could go either way?
Glutamine to glutamate and then to GABA unless something is out of whack
Suck it and see

not sure if it is totally right....
http://www.holistichelp.net/blog/how...nce-glutamate/
11-22-2016, 08:12 PM   #49
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Man, I can't thank you enough for that link. It was an incredible article, very very helpful.

*************

I bought green bananas today and fried some with lard. Its taste was much better than what I had expected and it's a good source of carb and fiber. From now on, I plan to eat them regularly.
11-23-2016, 01:33 AM   #50
hugh
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You guys mentioned anxiety, concentration etc. Have you looked into Trimethylglycine?
https://examine.com/supplements/Trimethylglycine/

It's something I've been trying lately, its rap sheet makes it out like a miracle supplement.
It does sound good, there's just too many supliments and so many interactions, does my head in....
Need to bone up on methylation now, see how it affects glutamine/GABA....

or just buy a jar and see if the fog in my head clears a bit.....
11-23-2016, 07:54 AM   #51
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Suck it and see
I've been reading about gaba-glutamate,glutamine in brain- a really interesting area. I've read a lot since yesterday and some findings seem conflicting.

"Suck it and see" seems, at this point, a good way to go (with caution).
11-23-2016, 09:19 AM   #52
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yeah, could go either way?
Glutamine to glutamate and then to GABA unless something is out of whack
Suck it and see

not sure if it is totally right....
http://www.holistichelp.net/blog/how...nce-glutamate/

It had me until
For example, the rubella virus, which is found in the MMR vaccination can decrease activity of glutamic acid decarboxylase (GAD)by as much as fifty percent.
Suggesting that a dead virus is responsible for anything, they're going to need to back that up with a lot of scientific evidence if they want to make bold, outlandish claims.

I'm skimming through but isn't the blood-brain barrier going to prevent a lot of oral supplements from effecting brain chemistry? That's why oral supplementation of things like GABA and many nootropics are so weak.
11-23-2016, 05:28 PM   #53
hugh
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Suggesting that a dead virus is responsible for anything, they're going to need to back that up with a lot of scientific evidence if they want to make bold, outlandish claims.

I'm skimming through but isn't the blood-brain barrier going to prevent a lot of oral supplements from effecting brain chemistry? That's why oral supplementation of things like GABA and many nootropics are so weak.
Firstly, i think L-glutamic acid decarboxylase (GAD - the enzyme that turns glutamate to GABA) is produced in the pancreas, and there are a lot of papers referencing the link between viruses and GAD autoimmune reactions,
Pretty quickly gets past anything i can follow or comment on....

I did say that i wasn't sure it is totally right.
haven't found the paper, just other references to it.
I think it all comes from studies associating viral infections with pancreatic damage leading to T1 diabetes
MMR is an attenuated (weakened) live virus vaccine, so they might be stretching it (but might also be accurate) to say that vaccines have the same virus are naturally infected rubella, which is associated with GAD autoimmune reactions.

Like i said, WAY above my pay grade....

"Rubella virus has been suggested to cause type 1 diabetes, but so far only congenital rubella syndrome has conclusively been associated with the disease"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2570378/

but found another web page making the same claim (unreferenced).....
"One of the things that interferes with the activity of the GAD enzyme is the rubella virus. This is the same virus as is in the MMR vaccination. It has been shown in the type 1 diabetes that the rubella virus can cause the GAD enzyme to stop functioning. The body makes antibodies against it. In some studies, enzyme activity was decreased by 50%."
https://chronicdiseaserecovery.wordp...-gaba-balance/

interestingly the next paragraph puts your suggestion of Trimethylglycine in a good light (i think, im sure methylation is more complicated that)
"This connects back to methylation. If you are making too few methyl groups and you cannot methylate virus to silence or kill it, and you canít make T-cells to deal with the infection because you have too few methyl groups, then you are more likely to wind up with chronic infection when you do something like inject live virus into an immune compromised body."
11-24-2016, 03:21 AM   #54
hugh
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crohn2357,
have you considered whey protein?, while high in glutamine, whey is a "high quality protein" (those with complete amino acid profiles) .
Just based on reading, no experience with it.
I started with bone broth, gelatin and slow cooked gelatinous meats, and this looks like a good supplement to try.....

"In general, whey protein is seen as beneficial to the lining of the intestines, especially in clinical settings where intestinal function is impaired.[112] One study in rats found that whey, to a greater extent than soy or Casein Protein, could promote GLP-2 activtiy in the intestines and subsequent intestinal cell growth.[113] Anabolism of gut tissue may only apply to higher quality proteins (those with complete amino acid profiles) as at least one study found an absence of anabolism after gelatin protein.

At least one human intervention has noted that whey protein at 0.5g/kg bodyweight for 2 months in persons with Crohn's Disease was approximately as effective as Glutamine at 0.5g/kg bodyweight in reducing intestinal permeability; this study actually used whey as an active control before concluding its efficacy"

https://examine.com/supplements/Whey...in/#summary7-0
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22038507
11-24-2016, 05:55 AM   #55
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hugh, I haven't tried supplementing pure whey; but based on the same idea I tried goat's curd -which is mostly just whey. I did react to it badly (triggered a flare up) after 2 days of eating it.

I think I won't be online for some time, the computer steals too much time from me, interferes with my studies. I'm sure you know this feeling... I open the pc, and get lost in reading on a lot of different subjects and the day is over...

So I move my laptop from its usual place.

Anyway, it was very nice talking to you, and very helpful too.

Take great care, goodbye.
11-25-2016, 12:30 PM   #56
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I might have to buy some more unflavored whey. Then I just have to find something crohn's safe to make the flavor tolerable.
11-25-2016, 05:20 PM   #57
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Just want to let you know that my flare has whent in remission and whitout any meds at all !!!!!

whent all in on the diet as you know, now 9weeks glutenfree, 3weeks dairyfree and a lot of other changes in the diet, like i wrote. My calciprotektin was 2170 in sept-okt and talked to the doc yesterday and my testresult from two weeks back was down on 6 !!!!!!!
11-25-2016, 05:40 PM   #58
Tony71
 
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crohn2357,
have you considered whey protein?, while high in glutamine, whey is a "high quality protein" (those with complete amino acid profiles) .
Just based on reading, no experience with it.
I started with bone broth, gelatin and slow cooked gelatinous meats, and this looks like a good supplement to try.....

"In general, whey protein is seen as beneficial to the lining of the intestines, especially in clinical settings where intestinal function is impaired.[112] One study in rats found that whey, to a greater extent than soy or Casein Protein, could promote GLP-2 activtiy in the intestines and subsequent intestinal cell growth.[113] Anabolism of gut tissue may only apply to higher quality proteins (those with complete amino acid profiles) as at least one study found an absence of anabolism after gelatin protein.

At least one human intervention has noted that whey protein at 0.5g/kg bodyweight for 2 months in persons with Crohn's Disease was approximately as effective as Glutamine at 0.5g/kg bodyweight in reducing intestinal permeability; this study actually used whey as an active control before concluding its efficacy"

https://examine.com/supplements/Whey...in/#summary7-0
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22038507

No way No Whey

This feels difficult this topic, have a friend who doesnt have ibd but hes got an inflammation couple of years back and the doc he met, said that all these whey/protein supplements are really bad for us cause we cant digest them the way we should and my friends inflammation was caused by proteinsupplements due to the doc!? everything isnt ok cause it says so in a study!? These whey studies could be founded by the sports nutrition companies!!?? Why is ibs/ibd's getting more common ? Gluten/wheat is one big reason, lectins anothet, dairy another. The doc warned that this a reason aswell And how come that whey is beneficial but other dairy isnt, what ive learned and read humans cant digest dairy so im very confused. I dont believe the study or whey but thats my personal opinion.
11-25-2016, 09:48 PM   #59
Crohn2357
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Hey hugh, I wanted to express my gratitude for telling me about green bananas.

I first fried them with lard, it was okayish.
Then I boiled them for 90 minutes and it turned out quite good.
Now I'm cooking them in my microwave oven for 10 minutes. Much better this way.

They're very easy to make, tasty and quick. It gives me the carbs I needed (starches) that I had struggled to find a safe source for years.

Thank you.
11-26-2016, 12:02 AM   #60
hugh
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Crohn2357
my pleasure, i love those green cooking bananas

curds are casein protein, whey is whey protein,
not saying it's good, just saying it's different
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