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Crohn's Disease Forum » Diet, Fitness, and Supplements » Ketogenic diets, any risks?


 
11-26-2016, 06:03 AM   #61
Crohn2357
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I think I translated it's name incorrectly. It's a traditional whey cheese here, not curd but something similar to ricotta. It's just whey and some little lactose- no casein. I took lactase tablets before eating this cheese to make sure that I wasn't reacting to lactose.
11-26-2016, 07:22 AM   #62
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No way No Whey

This feels difficult this topic, have a friend who doesnt have ibd but hes got an inflammation couple of years back and the doc he met, said that all these whey/protein supplements are really bad for us cause we cant digest them the way we should and my friends inflammation was caused by proteinsupplements due to the doc!? everything isnt ok cause it says so in a study!? These whey studies could be founded by the sports nutrition companies!!?? Why is ibs/ibd's getting more common ? Gluten/wheat is one big reason, lectins anothet, dairy another. The doc warned that this a reason aswell And how come that whey is beneficial but other dairy isnt, what ive learned and read humans cant digest dairy so im very confused. I dont believe the study or whey but thats my personal opinion.
It's a blind generalization on lactose intolerance. Some people don't produce enough lactase enzyme naturally to digest dairy, some people do. People that don't shouldn't be consuming dairy.

I have yet to see any real evidence for milk being bad or indigestible outside of this.
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12-06-2016, 01:18 AM   #63
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I'm going to try ginkgo biloba for mental performance. Any experiences or ideas?
12-06-2016, 01:59 AM   #64
hugh
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I'm going to try ginkgo biloba for mental performance. Any experiences or ideas?
No idea but let us know how it goes. I feel like I've had a hangover/head cold for about 5 years now
12-06-2016, 02:21 AM   #65
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I will let you know.

this is the product I'm going to use, starting today.
12-06-2016, 10:12 PM   #66
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http://www.jbc.org/content/278/49/49279.long

Not sure what to make of this, doesn't sound good for long term usage though.
I feel like I've had a hangover/head cold for about 5 years now
I have the same problem, and I'm getting tired of trying to solve this, keep things up mentally.

I'm REALLY frustrated. You know, the best mental state I've ever reached was when I was on the ketogenic diet. It just works, and it is safer than taking these supplements. If I could keep my weight up on the keto diet, I would definitely follow it. I don't know if it is doable or not...
To increase the fat I should eat on keto diet, I could mix mct oil or extra virgin olive oil with vegetable juices and drink them; but both oils give me unbelievable diarrhea...

Maybe, instead of taking big quantities of these oils, taking small quantities more frequently would help with diarrhea.

Instead of these oils, I could try ghee but I'm very sensitive to casein (and homemade ghee has some casein) so I'd rather stay clear of it.

I don't think I can ever reach the mental power when I was on ketogenic diet again in any other way.

Edit: http://fixyourgut.com/diarrhea-from-...as-they-sound/
---------

hugh, the positive (cerebral) effects you get from ketogenic diet is simply amazing. You become calm, alert (in a good way) your mood doesn't fluctuate, you don't crave foods, it sharpens your mind, gives you a sense of well being... It is like you're constantly on amphetamines without its psychotic high feeling.

I really miss that feeling.

-----------
I don't know if you can handle drinking tea? Especially green tea, because of the mixture of L-theanine + caffeine and antioxidants... I can't drink green tea, as it triggers my Crohn's; but if I could, I think it would be a big help.

Maybe I should look into meditation. I think it may help; though I'm very ignorant about it.

By the way, my rectal bleeding got massively increased today, probably due to the ginkgo's blood thinning effect. It is known to increase bleeding. I'm not going to take it again.

Last edited by Crohn2357; 12-06-2016 at 11:13 PM.
12-07-2016, 07:42 PM   #67
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hugh, the positive (cerebral) effects you get from ketogenic diet is simply amazing. You become calm, alert (in a good way) your mood doesn't fluctuate, you don't crave foods, it sharpens your mind, gives you a sense of well being... It is like you're constantly on amphetamines without its psychotic high feeling.

I really miss that feeling.

Maybe I should look into meditation. I think it may help; though I'm very ignorant about it.
I have dabbled with ketosis, and have felt better while in it but from what i've read i have not thought it safe to try to be permanently in ketosis.

Having said that i am trying to cut back my carb to 50/70 grams a day to be intermittently in ketosis.
I think most of the studies that i have read about the dangers of Ketosis refer to 'long term ketosis'. whether that is a month or a year i don't know.
Intermittent fasting or even just intermittent carb restriction should be fine.

Some rambling thoughts that i am playing around with in my diet....
The studies i've seen (but can't find at the moment) linking low carb to gut lining problems fall into two areas,-

1-lack of carbs causing a deficiency in mucosal lining.

-Glucose is a vital ingredient for the mucus lining the intestine so and carbs should be either starch or glucose (no fructose).
-Carbs in non-starchy vegetables don't count as they are virtually indigestible
-What is the minimum amount required?

-supplementing with L-glutamine (or L-glutamine rich foods like bone broth, gelatin) seems to decrease leaky gut and help repair
For every anti-glutamine post i see, i see 10 pro-glutamine so i am going to give it a go and stop if i notice negative side effects

2-Lack of resistant starch causing biome to consume Gut mucosal lining.
-Sufficient RS would minimize depletion of mucosal lining
-Resistant starch would not affect ketosis
-Raw plantain (blearghhhh? in smoothies?) has much higher RS than cooked
- I did a while on potato starch but gave up potatoes entirely to help arthritis.
- might be a significant downside for people with SIBO - food for bugs in the wrong places

just ideas......

Thoroughly recommend meditation (although not currently practicing.....)
Check out 'Mindsight' for a simple technique
http://www.drdansiegel.com/about/mindsight/
12-07-2016, 10:56 PM   #68
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Yea, problems related to gut lining is a real concern it seems.
A recent study I posted on research sub-forum: http://www.crohnsforum.com/showthread.php?t=79587

I've read about mindfulness in the past and I think I understood the concept quite well, and it makes the most sense; but it is actually really hard to incorporate into your life (at least that's what I've found).

I think, in terms of mentality and thinking, genetics play a huge role. I've been thinking about this for a long time, and, I'm increasingly believing that this is just true. Of course it doesn't determine everything, we need to do what we can do to progress our lives, research and practice is the way to "liberation" (as your signature says).

I believe AIP diet is the most healthy diet for someone with Crohn's.

I'll prepare bone broth soups again, it's good that you repeatedly reminded me that.

Back to mindfulness, I think it finely explains the most important mental problems. It articulates them collectively, gives good diagnosis etc... But "letting go" of past memories, intrusive thoughts, loop thinking, obsessive thinking, perfectionism etc... is really hard. How to let go? I know there are methods, different practices but I guess one should devout himself completely for some time to this kind of practice (mindfulness meditation) in order to see some progression.

Apart from dietary interventions, I find that eliminating most of the distractors help me. I first removed the tv in my house. I think tv is toxic and stupifying. This was now long time ago.

Nowadays I've been thinking about eliminating internet and music from my life. Music has been addictive to me*, and I can't shake it off easily, so I've removed it from my life.

The same thing also applies to internet. When I'm on the internet, I spend too much time on it, can't control myself. So I'll completely cut internet from my life in around 2-3 days.

My principle is simple: I try my best to have control on something, but if I see that I don't have enough will power to control my actions with that thing, then I cut that thing out of my life (completely).

I don't know, I'm just trying my best to clarify my mental state at the moment...

*It's not surprising that music is addictive:
this study (Anatomically distinct dopamine release during anticipation and experience of peak emotion to music) says:
“Using the neurochemical specificity of [11C]raclopride positron emission tomography scanning, combined with psychophysiological measures of autonomic nervous system activity, we found endogenous dopamine release in the striatum at peak emotional arousal during music listening.”
“These results indicate that intense pleasure in response to music can lead to dopamine release in the striatal system.”
In the BBC news : Music 'releases mood-enhancing chemical in the brain'
"In this study, levels of dopamine were found to be up to 9% higher when volunteers were listening to music they enjoyed."

*************
I'm going to buy the right beef bones and some carrots to make the bone broth today. I do like its taste, and it is the only soup I can drink. To make it, I let it boil for at least 24 hours on a very low heat.

This is the recipe I rely on: http://whole9life.com/2013/12/whole9-bone-broth-faq/
12-17-2016, 08:17 AM   #69
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Hey, I came back for a quick look.

hugh, for the last 9 days I've been drinking bone broth (2 litres every day) and you were absolutely right about it being very good for Crohn's. Its effects are incredible.

I listened to your advice about adding probiotics slowly.

L-glutamine, gelatin, bone broth, etc to feed mucus lining.
Low carb (but not Very LC) to starve bad bugs, and eventually Kraut juice but below histamine tolerance (the idea being that you will degrade a certain amount of histamine, and only have problems if histamine intake/production exceeds histamine elimination/degradation....)

so maybe once things improve lick the back of a spoon that has been dipped in kraut juice, or see if there is research into specific bacteria that degrade histamines and take low dose of them.......
I add 1 teaspoon of organic apple cider vinegar to every cup of bone broth soup. It's been going good.

I'll cut my internet connection today - again. I'm wishing you well.

Edit: this is an excellent article on mindfulness , worth reading.

Last edited by Crohn2357; 12-17-2016 at 11:10 AM.
12-19-2016, 10:37 PM   #70
hugh
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.............
I listened to your advice about adding probiotics slowly.
........
Glad to hear you are doing well.
There is a little research as to which bacteria degrade histamines, do a google but so little research that any strong claims are probably exaggerations
" Species that may be beneficial:
Based on limited research into probiotics and histamine intolerance, the species considered to be beneficial as they are thought to downgrade biogenic amines (of which histamine is one) are Lactobacillus rhamnosus, Bifidobacterium infantis, Bifidobacterium longum, Lactobacillus plantarum, and possibly Lactobacillus reuteri* "

http://www.optibacprobiotics.co.uk/f...ne-intolerance

So at a guess look at baby/infant probiotics
12-21-2016, 03:55 AM   #71
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I started to make homemade vinegar in my house, waiting for it to be done.

In regards to the bone broth soup, for its taste, the key is carrots. If I don't add any carrots in it (while making it) the result would be horrible. I can't even stand the smell of it. It repels me.

But, while making the bone broth, If I add at least 8 carrots (chopped) in, it makes all the difference. The heavy smell disappears, the color becomes golden and the taste becomes great.

Just letting you know.
06-27-2017, 08:06 PM   #72
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hugh, I remember we talked about meditation, bone broth, sweet potatoes... along with many other things in this topic.

--- ---

I've been making bone broth soups, and drinking them ever since you said how beneficial you've found them. You were absolutely right. It does help with Crohn's disease, like a medicine.

--- ---

About two weeks ago I started to research mindfulness meditation more, watched lectures by Jon Kabat-Zinn, and others, and read... I've been practicing mindfulness and mindfulness meditation for the last two weeks and it's, I'm not sure how to define, a liberating approach. In a sense, I feel enlightened and liberated.

--- ---

Now, I have a question regarding safe carbs. You know I have problems with many foods, and I'm looking for more safe carb options.
I know you say yams, sweet potatoes, plantain, and white rice can be considered as good sources of safe carbs.
I've been eating sweet potatoes for a month, and I'm able to digest them without any bodily problems; but they are ridiculously expensive in this damn country. Not suitable to eat in every meal, economically.
Plantains and yams are not on the market here, impossible to find.
White rice is a mystery for me. It always gives me heart palpitations and migraines associated with cardiovascular problems. That's the main reason I can't eat them. It's curious, because I don't have any cardiovascular problems normally.
Well, what else? I know you eat/drink (?) carrots and maybe other veggies' juices. I think I can do that; but I think it will not be a good source of carbohydrate by itself alone.
Because by "safe carbs", I mean more like starches; not primarily monosaccharides or disaccharides. I want my blood sugar to be stable, you know.
Well, what else? I can't eat nightshades, can't eat cauliflowers (fodmap), no seeds, no nuts no fruits, no onions (fodmap), no beans...
If I could eat fruits, it'd help me solve the carb problem much more easily I think.

What else to eat? There is broccoli, celery, cabbage (can't eat this one by itself, you need to add something to it), beetroot (too much nitrate, causing problems), zucchini, Brussels sprouts, spinach, radish (have problems with this), okra, squash/pumpkin (how to eat this by itself, without any additions?)...

--- ---

Can you think of any other veggies? As you can see there are some veggies I can eat, but the problem with them is (apart from their taste), they don't have enough calorie. It's like eating grass. No caloric density unlike sweet potatoes or white rice or green bananas.

I sometimes think that the act of eating and digesting them burns more calories than some of the vegetables' caloric content.

Have any advice? Just say whatever you can think of, I might be able to do/eat at least some of them.

I can see how ketogenic diet would make eating much easier for me; though it has its own very serious problems.

--- ---

Note: I might not be able to post a reply for a about a week; but I'll definitely read your answer, If you write.

Take care.

Edit: I actually find this helpful, hah.

--- ---

I'll try to microwave parts of a squash. It may turn out good.

Last edited by Crohn2357; 06-27-2017 at 08:42 PM.
06-28-2017, 06:32 AM   #73
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Hi, sounds like your making good progress...

--- ---
Now, I have a question regarding safe carbs. You know I have problems with many foods, and I'm looking for more safe carb options.
I know you say yams, sweet potatoes, plantain, and white rice can be considered as good sources of safe carbs.
I've been eating sweet potatoes for a month, and I'm able to digest them without any bodily problems; but they are ridiculously expensive in this damn country. Not suitable to eat in every meal, economically.
Plantains and yams are not on the market here, impossible to find.
White rice is a mystery for me. It always gives me heart palpitations and migraines associated with cardiovascular problems. That's the main reason I can't eat them. It's curious, because I don't have any cardiovascular problems normally.
Safe starch - “any starchy food that (after being properly cooked and prepared!) is low in fructose and relatively free from natural toxins (like lectins, saponins, and gluten and related proteins).”

Doesn't mean you need a lot of it, increase slowly and see if things get better or worse slowly (or increase quickly and see if things get better or worse quickly :-) )
Do you have a level or carbs that you are aiming for?? and then titrate a little each way to see if it gets better or worse?

http://balancedbites.com/paleo-diet-carbs/

Start with what's in season?, squash, great, some sweet, some not, but roasted in any good oil till slightly caramelised or crisp.....
- chestnuts are 'relatively' cheap at the moment, but I could have been out gathering acorns for free, next year ….

Next- Historically, what was the starch source?
Are there any local tubers, try a little bit....

Then- what poor people eat (or sometimes, used to eat before subsidised junk replaced it).
Where are you? What are the labourers eating?
Probably rice and wheat?

Then - Rice, if “safe” but not well tolerated....
Eating small serve of rice with lots of oil will slow down absorption and (to some small degree) level out glucose, and also helps absorption of oil soluble vitamins

Well, what else? I know you eat/drink (?) carrots and maybe other veggies' juices. I think I can do that; but I think it will not be a good source of carbohydrate by itself alone.
Because by "safe carbs", I mean more like starches; not primarily monosaccharides or disaccharides. I want my blood sugar to be stable, you know.
Well, what else? I can't eat nightshades, can't eat cauliflowers (fodmap), no seeds, no nuts no fruits, no onions (fodmap), no beans...
If I could eat fruits, it'd help me solve the carb problem much more easily I think..
Fruit is higher in fructose (the 'bad' sugar). 'safe starches' are carbohydrates composed mostly (if not exclusively) from glucose. -
-can you get/tolerate bananas?
If you are concerned with getting enough carbs then monosaccharides like glucose (rice syrup) can be used in cooking, the dilution/concentration determining how much blood sugar moves.

But better from the food, go to a market and look at what the locals buy.

What else to eat? There is broccoli, celery, cabbage (can't eat this one by itself, you need to add something to it), beetroot (too much nitrate, causing problems), zucchini, Brussels sprouts, spinach, radish (have problems with this), okra, squash/pumpkin (how to eat this by itself, without any additions?)...
Same thing, what grows there or is affordable?,
-eat small amounts of one that you thing is worth trying and slowly increase if all is well

--- ---

Can you think of any other veggies? As you can see there are some veggies I can eat, but the problem with them is (apart from their taste), they don't have enough calorie. It's like eating grass. No caloric density unlike sweet potatoes or white rice or green bananas.
get a realistic idea of how many you are eating. I find that if I eat carbs I feel I need more but if I eat less I want less

I can see how ketogenic diet would make eating much easier for me; though it has its own very serious problems.
So, low carb some days, cycling in and out of ketosis,


--- ---
I'll try to microwave parts of a squash. It may turn out good.
I like squash
https://www.google.com.au/search?cli...E8vN8gfEwa_4AQ
07-03-2017, 12:05 PM   #74
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I would not recommend cycling in and out of ketosis, the body doesn't handle the transfer well for most people. Some people going on a fully ketogenic diet can takes weeks, to a month, where they're stuck in a pre-ketogenic state, their body isn't converting fats into energy like it should and they just end up feeling bad.

I would also highly suggest an indigestible fiber supplement (0 calorie) if doing keto to ensure gut bacteria health while not eating carbs. Psyllium husks have been a godsend to me.

It can also help with bile-acid diarrhea that's a frequent problem for crohn's sufferers, especially eating a high fat diet like keto.
07-03-2017, 09:33 PM   #75
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I'll start of by repeating (not for you Crohn2357, for anyone else who has recently tuned in) [edit - oops, that sounds like me being a smartarse shit, sorry, wasn't having a go at you Instant, i just referenced this thread in the other keto thread.] - Ketogenic diets are probably not where you want to go (especially long term, unless you have neurological issues).

Next, i will repeat "Get thee to a healthy Paleo diet, It is far more important than Ketosis, in fact, forget [another edit, potty mouth] ketosis, moderate to low carb (but not very-low carb paleo- except for a few weeks to become fat-adapted))

Then i will go on to say "This is what works for me, it will work for others but not everyone (for many reasons- It's not right for you, you aren't doing it properly, there are other factors that need addressing simultaneously/beforehand.... etc, etc"

I would not recommend cycling in and out of ketosis, the body doesn't handle the transfer well for most people. Some people going on a fully ketogenic diet can takes weeks, to a month, where they're stuck in a pre-ketogenic state, their body isn't converting fats into energy like it should and they just end up feeling bad.
As i said in the last post, go keto for a month[1], become fat adapted and then reintroduce safe starches at a low level (and play around looking for your personal sweet spot.) Mix it up with low carb days so that you do not loose the 'fat adapted'-ness that you have achieved.

You will (probably)suffer from 'low-carb flu" initially - google it....

Once someone becomes 'fat adapted', that is, able to use fat as fuel, the 'cycling' in and out of ketosis is normal, healthy and easy[2]- many people would cycle into ketosis while asleep (unless they have a sugar IV line?).
If someone has been on a carb heavy diet for a while the body tends to 'forget' about producing ketones (which is just the liver turning fats (and some proteins) into fuel). It is a normal biological function [3]

Fat adapted and ketosis are NOT the same thing, a metabolically healthy person can use glucose AND ketones as required. Ketosis is a fast way of becoming Fat-Adapted, but like all 'fast' fixes there are dangers and pitfalls.
Just reducing carbs to a low level is enough to encourage "Fat-Adaptaed"-ness[2], without the drawbacks of ketosis (bad breath, low mucus production)

I would also highly suggest an indigestible fiber supplement (0 calorie) if doing keto to ensure gut bacteria health while not eating carbs. Psyllium husks have been a godsend to me.

It can also help with bile-acid diarrhea that's a frequent problem for crohn's sufferers, especially eating a high fat diet like keto.
Yes, but be careful while in a bad place, can be an issue for people with digestive issues so start slow and build up.
As health improves tolerance will also improve...
-on a TMI level, my shits have been WONDERFUL since i started adding psyllium.....

This hot dog roll is f#%king amazing, i make round buns and slice them thinly (horizontally) for sandwiches and burgers and it is the bomb
https://cleaversorganic.com.au/recip...gs-pete-evans/

[1]"The bottom line is that fat adaptation to a low-carbohydrate diet can take at least 3 weeks. During that time, you might not feel quite as energetic as you would subsequently. And if someone tells you a low-carbohydrate diet won’t work based on studies lasting < 3 weeks, tell them you’re going to await higher quality, long-term research."
https://medium.com/@davidludwigmd/ad...t-bfd0cd314e4e

[2]"I’d even suggest that true fat-adaptation will allow someone to eat a higher carb meal or day without derailing the train. Once the fat-burning machinery has been established and programmed, you should be able to effortlessly switch between fuel sources as needed."
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/what-...e-fat-adapted/

[3]"Glucose is not the preferred fuel of muscle cells under normal human resting metabolic conditions or even under most normal human movement patterns (exercise). Fat is. Sure, given an unlimited supply of glucose and regular refilling of glycogen stores, skeletal muscle will burn through it during exercise the same way a fire burns through kindling when that’s all you have to offer. The body can shift carbohydrate oxidation to keep up with intake. But skeletal muscle can burn fat with great efficiency (and far less oxidative fallout) at relatively high outputs for very long bouts. Cardiac muscle actually prefers ketones, and the brain can run just fine (maybe even optimally) on a blend of ketones and minimal glucose. Our survival as a species has depended on these evolutionary adaptations away from glucose dependency."
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/a-met...#axzz1za02xNxp

Last edited by hugh; 07-04-2017 at 06:32 AM.
07-06-2017, 03:07 PM   #76
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hugh, thanks for the reply. This link is particularly helpful.

I want to consume moderate to high levels of carbs, that's my aim.

I added green bananas to my diet again. I'm consuming both green bananas, and sweet potatoes as safe carb sources.

--- ---

I didn't know pumpkin is so poor in terms of, everything except vitamin A and potassium? Kind of interesting.
07-06-2017, 06:02 PM   #77
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hugh, thanks for the reply. This link is particularly helpful.

I want to consume moderate to high levels of carbs, that's my aim.

I added green bananas to my diet again. I'm consuming both green bananas, and sweet potatoes as safe carb sources.
More power to ya....
Not sure why but self experimentation is fun.
I am interested to know why.....
Seems that a few people feel that it's got to be either keto or high carb.... personally get best results on a lowish (but way more than keto) level.
07-06-2017, 07:25 PM   #78
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Not sure why but self experimentation is fun.
I am interested to know why.....
Agreed. Maybe because it's one of the very few ways to spend your time meaningfully? I think that may be an aspect of it.
Another aspect is probably related to the Baconian dictum :"knowledge is power."
Yet another: Aristotle said "all men by nature desire to know." , so, fulfilling the desire to know. Sheer curiosity?
Though I think many people wouldn't find self experimentation "fun".

--- ---

When I think about ketogenic diet, it sometimes makes me remember Paul Erdös (1913-1996), the famous Hungarian mathematician. The man took high doses of amphetamines and caffeines daily, nearly all his life. He had done this to increase his cerebral activity, and lived a long, extremely productive life.

If I didn't have Crohn's disease, and arthritis and some others, maybe I still wouldn't follow his approach; but I could consider going ketogenic. I think of ketosis as kind of like a natural "brain on amphetamine" state. That crystal clarity of mind (on ketosis) is amazingly beautiful.

I'm glad I saw your warnings about ketogenic diet being a wrong way to go for a Crohn's patient, especially the warning about the thinning of the mucousal lining. That's very serious for us.

Also, look:
You need your carbs for energy, you need them for protein synthesis, you need them to recover, there is a reason why every malnourished person that comes into ER is treated with glucose IV, you can not recover without them.
I think ketogenic diet is definitely doable if you don't have seriously debilitating diseases like Crohn's. But with Crohn's, it's not smart to go keto.

I'm on high carb because of it's convenience. High carb also helps me gain weight; which is something I want. I feel good on high carb, and that's important. High carb is fine, as long as you're eating real food. One thing I always avoid is "snacking" with carbs. I never do that; I always eat carbs with 200 grams of red meat.

If you find that lowish carb is convenient, makes you feel good, doesn't harm your health... then it's good.

--- ---

Note: DON'T take amphetamines; it'd most probably wreck your intestines, and make your Crohn's flare up. There are many anecdotal evidences for it. People with Crohn's should never take it.
07-08-2017, 08:52 PM   #79
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Being desperate is another impetus for self experimentation I guess.
You know, that hoping for a revelation which many of us have been through...
07-15-2017, 01:21 PM   #80
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I've been suffering from joint pains lately, and wondering if it's related to the sweet potatoes I eat every meal.

the high oxalate content of sweet potatoes could potentially aggravate joint pain in susceptible people, so it may be wise not to over-do them.
From: What is a “Safe Starch”?


---- ----

Edit: http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2011/01...weet-potatoes/
https://www.paleohacks.com/muscle/sw...problems-18316

Last edited by Crohn2357; 07-15-2017 at 11:08 PM. Reason: Additions
07-20-2017, 02:01 PM   #81
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I'm not sure this is accurate:
You need your carbs for energy, you need them for protein synthesis, you need them to recover, there is a reason why every malnourished person that comes into ER is treated with glucose IV, you can not recover without them.
Ketogenic diets have been used as a weight management staple for many bodybuilders for a long time now.
The whole point of the diet is that it removes you of the need for carbs to fulfill those purposes.

When looking specifically at protein synthesis, carbohydrates are not required. Leucine—found in egg yolks, for example—is an essential amino acid and is the primary driver of protein synthesis. That means protein synthesis can occur in the absence of carbohydrates...
In a chronically low-carb environment, the body doesn't follow the normal biochemical rules because it has to change. It becomes much more efficient with muscle glycogen, it up-regulates gene expression of certain enzymatic machinery needed for maximum performance, and it adapts as needed to excel in the presence of far fewer carbohydrates and much less insulin.
The biggest complications that I worry about are those regarding the balance of gut bacteria in response to a high fat, low fiber diet.

Even with fiber supplements you're likely to be on a high intake of saturated fats and this could result in a bad balance of gut bacteria.

Could being the key word.

High carb intake could do the same if it's being cleaved into glucose by certain pathogenic bacteria like klebsiella, in which case keto is the safer of the two.

It's a really complicated issue when you get into gut bacteria.

There's also some speculation on the inflammatory properties of high fat diets - but again this may be a high-fat-high-carb diet and the conversion to keto on a fat-only diet changes that behavior.

Speak of the devil.
This might be the answer haha

http://www.crohnsforum.com/showthread.php?t=81646
“The finding is remarkable because it means that a Crohn’s patient could also have a beneficial effect on their gut bacteria and inflammation by only switching the type of fat in their diet,” said Alexander Rodriguez-Palacios, DVM, DVSc, PhD, first author on the study and Assistant Professor of Medicine at Case Western Reserve University. “Patients would only need to replace a ‘bad’ fat with a ‘good’ fat, and eat normal amounts.”
07-20-2017, 05:12 PM   #82
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I don't have enough knowledge about the relevance of carbs on protein synthesis; but the post you quoted (kiny's post) is originally a reply to SCD diet (which doesn't target ketosis); not to ketogenic diet.

In regards to the gastrointestinal microbiota composition, and the effects of diet on it, I just don't go into that discussion. As I said earlier; current knowledge on this subject is very poor, and everything we would say would feel like a mere speculation to me.

Unless I show some actual symptoms (of, say SIBO, or yeast overgrowth, or microbial infections...) of that kind of problem; I'll not interfere with my GI microbiota through diet, pro-prebiotics, supplements etc.

Altering GI microbiota in Ulcerative Colitis seems to have robust beneficial effects; but I don't think it's true for Crohn's Disease in general.

Maybe hugh will give a different perspective; though I haven't seen him around for a while. I hope the old man is doing fine.

Last edited by Crohn2357; 07-20-2017 at 10:41 PM.
07-22-2017, 06:48 AM   #83
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Crohn2357
“I've been suffering from joint pains lately, and wondering if it's related to the sweet potatoes I eat every meal.”


So many things can be implicated in joint pain, for me it was mainly potatoes
Can you eat different carbs for a month (and not change anything else?)

Instant....
“The biggest complications that I worry about are those regarding the balance of gut bacteria in response to a high fat, low fiber diet.”


If you have crohns then the balance is out anyway.
A high fat (and low carb) diet will reduce gut bacteria and reduce symptoms (caused by your immune system attacking the bacteria and having a war on your mucosal lining.
Then reintroducing “safe” carbs at a later date (once things have settled down, slowly, along with appropriate amounts of paleo fibre and as part of a 'balanced' paleo-template diet, if done well and the gods are smiling) will raise the level of good bacteria.

“It's a really complicated issue when you get into gut bacteria.”

Yes it is, and a lot of effort is made to try and keep it that complicated,

-But it is also pretty simple
“Feed them and they will come”
-the bacteria in your(my/ones, etc.) gut are the ones that do well on what you eat.
-there's' a lot of shit happening down there, avoid radical changes (but give up wheat (anyone who hasn't)).
-eat the food that supports the bacteria you are supposed to have, and don't eat foods that fuck it up
-It's not just food, -Alcohol, NSAIDS, stress, antibiotics, sleep.
Try to move things in that direction whenever and where-ever you can, bit by bit
-But food is the big one....

and this, i had to have a nap halfway through writing it. ("old man"?)

““The finding is remarkable because it means that a Crohn’s patient could also have a beneficial effect on their gut bacteria and inflammation by only switching the type of fat in their diet,” said Alexander Rodriguez-Palacios, DVM, DVSc, PhD, first author on the study and Assistant Professor of Medicine at Case Western Reserve University. “Patients would only need to replace a ‘bad’ fat with a ‘good’ fat, and eat normal amounts.”

[best sheldon voice]
“Jimminy Cricket, those confounded science journalists are trying to bury the truth under the 'official message' – That really gets my gander up”

cant find the original paper/presentation, but every instance of reporting that I have found has been deliberate mis-reporting the results to keep people eating the soylent green...

“Patients would only need to replace a ‘bad’ fat with a ‘good’ fat, and eat normal amounts.”
http://casemed.case.edu/cwrumed360/n...fm?news_id=666

-and we know saturated fats are bad and vegetable seed oils are good, right? Cause that’s what we have been told, but wait... That was cocoa butter and coconut oil? Saturated fats

lets dig in....
“In the new study, a diet of plant-derived “good” fats, including coconut oil or cocoa butter, drastically reduced bacterial diversity in mice with Crohn’s-like disease.”

Wow, plant-derived ‘good’ fats, [y'know, like plant-based diet, and healthy fats, y'know, not those ones that kill ya]

but later....
"Mice fed even low concentrations of coconut oil or cocoa butter also had less severe small intestine inflammation.”
Sooo, does that mean..
-"Mice fed even [only] low concentrations of coconut oil or cocoa butter also had less severe small intestine inflammation.”,

or does it mean....
"Mice fed even low concentrations of coconut oil or cocoa butter [and the other “plant-derived “good” fats"- that shall forever remain nameless(?)] also had less severe small intestine inflammation”.

“Patients would only need to replace a ‘bad’ fat with a ‘good’ fat, and eat normal amounts.”
yeah, ‘bad’ fats, heart disease, cholesterol, saturated fat, 60 years of propaganda.......
yeah ‘good’ fats, heart healthy, plant derived, planet destroying monoculture,
oh, but....
eat cocoa butter and coconut oil,
what about the omega-6 pro-inflammatory vegetable seed oils?
hmmm, could’a been a bit clearer?


let’s try this one......
"In the new study, a diet of plant-derived "good" fats, including coconut oil or cocoa butter, drastically reduced bacterial diversity in mice with Crohn's-like disease. “
https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0622121911.htm

“good fat, bad fat”, got it, “plant-derived”, got it,
don’t need to to read anymore

“a diet of plant-derived "good" fats, including coconut oil or cocoa butter, “
yes, good fats and surprisingly, coconut and cocoa, got it

"Patients would only need to replace a 'bad' fat with a 'good' fat, and eat normal amounts."
right, got the message

and the last line, love it....
“The trick now is to really discover what makes a fat 'good' or 'bad' for Crohn's disease."

because it’s complicated, remember......

i haven’t given up, lets try this.......
“A high-fat diet may cause changes to gut bacteria that could fight harmful inflammation, according to new research presented at Digestive Disease Week.”
https://www.mdlinx.com/gastroenterology/article/917

ohhhh, do tell.....

“Findings shows that a diet of plant-derived fats, such as coconut oil or cocoa butter, markedly reduced bacterial diversity in mice with a disease process similar to Crohn’s. “


so waaaaaait a minute, here’s a good time to ask.....
Has anyone anywhere seen what they did in the study?

-Were they adding fat and eating less carbs?
or
-did they replace the “bad fats” (butter? animal fat?) that they were eating with “plant-derived "good" fats, including coconut oil or cocoa butter."?
or
-did they replace the “good fats” that they were eating with “plant-derived "good" fats, including coconut oil or cocoa butter."?
or
-did they just add “plant-derived "good" fats, including coconut oil or cocoa butter."?

[read next line like that scene in FBDO] [1]
anyone?anyone?anyone

Putting all that aside, obviously wasn’t important.....

my rant.....
plant-derived, yup, reduced diversity? you mean less is good when they are fucking you up inside???????, who’da thunk?,
ok , got it
“plant-derived "good" fats, including......”
check
“reduced activity”
wow, fat did that?
- less carbs? different fat? more fat?

““Ongoing studies are now helping us to understand which component of the ‘good’ and ‘bad’ fats make the difference in the gut microbes and make mice healthier,” Dr. Rodriguez-Palacios said. “Ultimately, we aim to identify the ‘good’ fat-loving microbes for testing as probiotics.”


ohhh, tooo long, lets edit that....
““Ongoing studies are now helping us to [understand which component of the ‘good’ and ‘bad’ fats make the difference in the gut microbes and make mice healthier,” Dr. Rodriguez-Palacios said. “Ultimately, we aim to] identify the ‘good’ fat-loving microbes for testing as probiotics.”

et voila
““Ongoing studies are now helping us to identify the ‘good’ fat-loving microbes for testing as probiotics.”

and right at the end...
“but diet is something we are very hopeful could help at least some patients without the side-effects and risks carried by drugs. The trick now is to really discover what makes a fat ‘good’ or ‘bad’ for Crohn’s disease.”

wow, “at least some”? hardly worth looking at diet then is, lets have a cure....
ohhh wait, it’s a treatment? how long do i have to take this for? what? forever? how am i going to pay for that?

I’d almost given up,
but then i found some hippy-dippy ‘organic’ not-scientific crowd


“Coconut Oil Breakthrough For Crohn's Disease"
"Good fats can bring about positive changes in your gut bacteria, decreasing the symptoms of this debilitating, long-term condition. One caveat, though, is that the fat must be derived from plants"
http://www.organicandhealthy.org/201...or-crohns.html
whose link for “good” fats takes me to mercola, check it out....

heck.... “One caveat, though, is that the fat must be derived from plants”, hell, must be plant derived!!!!
dalek noises in head.... “ca-ve-at, ca-ve-at, ca-ve-at...”

"Scientists used animal models (mice), which were given two different diets. One group was fed “good” fats, such as coconut oil and cocoa butter. The other group was given a “normal” diet.”
ahh, normal diet? sad mouse diet? healthy mouse diet?
whatever

“Mice fed beneficial fatty diets had up to [30] percent fewer kinds of gut bacteria as those fed a normal diet, collectively resulting in a very different gut microbial composition … Mice fed even low concentrations of coconut oil or cocoa butter also had less severe small intestine inflammation.”
same words, same lack of clarity

“Rodriguez-Palacios noted that all (human) patients need to do to glean similar effects in their bodies is to “replace a 'bad' fat with a 'good' fat, and eat normal amounts”
[exhausted tantrum] “but howwwwww?, it’s so difficult, please, tell me howwwwww.........”

“interestingly, a portion at the opening of the intestine, called the cecum, is where Crohn’s disease typically causes the most inflammation, and that was an area positively impacted by coconut oil on the subjects in the study.”

what, coconut oil? not “plant-derived “good” fats inluding coconut oil”,
what the hell are “plant-derived “good” fats” then?

“Rodriguez-Palacios said he believes the findings could help doctors identify beneficial bacteria that could treat patients with ongoing inflammatory bowel disorders and said the next move will be to identify which components in said good and bad fats make the difference in gut microbes”

checkmate......
or as i misquoted earlier.....
““Ongoing studies are now helping us to identify the ‘good’ fat-loving microbes for testing as probiotics.”

and, farkinell, it takes a while to get to this......
"Besides the coconut oil and cocoa butter used in the study as good fats, scientists also used other delicious sources of good fats such as avocados, nuts (particularly macadamias, pecans and walnuts), salmon (and note that wild-caught Alaskan salmon is the healthiest variety) and extra-virgin olive oil.”

Read that list, are they shitting me?, that’s all real food, ZERO ‘plant-derived corporate waste product’ in that list.

I’ll have the “plant-derived” wild alaskan salmon, thanks......


[1] http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/FBDO

Last edited by hugh; 07-22-2017 at 07:05 AM.
07-22-2017, 10:13 AM   #84
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I stopped eating sweet potatoes, and replaced it with green bananas and within 2 days I became much better. Now I don't have any arthritic pain. The sweet potatoes were causing the problem; though I should say, I had been eating a kilogram of them every day for, more than a month.

----- -----

Guys, I suggest you to read this article. It's impressive, and quite surprising (to me).

Researchers are still figuring out exactly why that happens, but possible explanations are the tendency for high-saturated-fat diets to increase the abundance of gram-negative bacteria in the gut (the type of bacteria with endotoxin-containing membranes, an example being E. coli), and for saturated fat to increase the transport of endotoxins via lipid rafts. (But, it looks like there might be ways to offset the endotoxemic effect from saturated fat: at least in rodents, the addition of prebiotics (like oligofructose) lowers the endotoxin response to saturated fat, and certain fibers and phytochemicals appear to do the same! Woot for yet another imperative for consuming veggies with our meat!)

Last edited by Crohn2357; 07-22-2017 at 01:47 PM. Reason: grammar mistake
07-22-2017, 05:40 PM   #85
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Don't eat too much saturated fat, don't eat too little saturated fat...

Good advice, but applies to everything else too
07-22-2017, 06:09 PM   #86
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Then we have the solution to everything in diet when it comes to quantity?


Don't eat too much egg, don't eat too little. "Two eggs in a week is a good quantity, considering your age and cholesterol levels."

"Don't eat too much bread, it will make you fat; but be sure to eat some amount of whole bread, you need to eat bread every day to maintain your energy, and to get vitamins..."

Sounds any familiar?


Don't eat too much olives? I don't think olives would hurt someone (if there is no sensitivity/allergy) if eaten too much.


If only we could know how much is too much, and how little is too little for anything.


Edit:

The tables used in the article were interesting I think, especially the one about the Eskimo diet.

And this, was the most surprising to me:
Even though most contemporarily-studied hunter-gatherers get more than half of their calories from animal foods and as much as 58% of their calories from fat, the average caloric intake from saturated fat among these populations is only 13% (modal range is 10-15%).

Surprised? The fat in wild game meat is much lower in saturated fat than industrially-produced (grain-fed) meat in addition to being lower fat overall (in fact, depending on the source, the fat can be up to about 50% monounsaturated and 30% polyunsaturated, compared with about 50% saturated in some fats from grain-fed animals).

Last edited by Crohn2357; 07-22-2017 at 06:49 PM.
07-22-2017, 07:07 PM   #87
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"Nothing in medicine makes sense, except in the light of evolution"
07-23-2017, 03:23 AM   #88
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The last lines from that post you like....
"It we stick to a Paleo diet rich in phytochemical-rich plant foods (especially vegetables), adequate fiber and prebiotics to support gut health, and reasonable quantities of high-quality meat, seafood, and eggs, we stand the best shot at boosting our health and averting disease!"
https://www.thepaleomom.com/saturate...re-in-between/

Moderation in real foods that you tolerate, avoidance of all fake foods and of real foods that you don't tolerate
08-07-2017, 09:42 AM   #89
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hugh, you said in this thread that you eat "lowish" carb paleo.

I've always had problems with low blood pressure (95/60), and it gets worse after I eat a meal. It's always related to the amount and type of the carbs I consume when my low bp is related to meals...

"Hypotension after meals is a common cause of dizziness and falls after eating. This is most common after large meals containing a lot of carbohydrates. It’s believed to be caused by blood pooling into the vessels of the stomach and intestines."
http://www.webmd.com/heart/understan...ssure-basics#2

I've been eating 150 gr carbs in a day. I'm thinking about cutting it to half, what do you think about that? How much carbs do you consume in a day?
How do you keep your weight up? Eating more meat? more veggies? more fat?

Edit: Do you know any good article(s) about cholesterol? I want to read more about it.
I would listen to podcasts too (if you know any), but prefer a deep, balanced, lengthy article.


I also wonder, what is your personal stance on the cholesterol debate? I'd like to read it very much. Do you care about the amount of cholesterol you eat?

-- --- --

Some links:
http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2011/03...oaring-–-help/
http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2011/03...ow-carb-paleo/
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/cholesterol/

Last edited by Crohn2357; 08-08-2017 at 07:32 AM.
08-09-2017, 05:35 AM   #90
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hugh, you said in this thread that you eat "lowish" carb paleo.
i was low carb paleo but relaxed it when i tried 'perfect health diet'.
Now? low by SAD standards but i eat 'safe' carbs without much thought nowadays.
Every now and then i go keto or VLC just to shake it up.

I've always had problems with low blood pressure (95/60), and it gets worse after I eat a meal. It's always related to the amount and type of the carbs I consume when my low bp is related to meals...
I used to have "Orthostatic hypotension" at times but never really cared that much (low on the list of troubles).
Good that you have noticed the triggers and can hence avoid them.
Another reason to avoid high carb!!!!!

I've been eating 150 gr carbs in a day. I'm thinking about cutting it to half, what do you think about that? How much carbs do you consume in a day?
I no longer measure at all, but i do vary it from lots to very little just for fun 9and to stay 'fat-adapted'
Most of the paleo gurus are upping there carb recommendations bit by bit
Rob wolf is big on how "different carbs affect different people differently" at the moment.
Keeps referencing a study where people at the same carbs and had opposite blood sugar spikes (some spiked on bananas but not on cookies, others spiked on cookies and not bananas.)[1]
he now recommends a 7 day carb challenge- haven’t looked into it but basically, after the 30 day paleo reset you do a different carb every day and see which ones make your blood sugars spike and avoid them.

Both he and Primal guy recommend 100- 125 grams a day but stress that it all depends on who you are and what you are doing.

concentrate on what carbs don't cause hypotension, and TITRATE (move slowly) rather than jump around.


How do you keep your weight up? Eating more meat? more veggies? more fat?
From my sickest, i put on 12kg just by giving up carbs (probably mainly wheat).
It is NOT about how much you eat, it is about how much you digest.
Titrate your carbs down a bit and your fat up a bit and if you loose weight then go back

Edit: Do you know any good article(s) about cholesterol? I want to read more about it.
I would listen to podcasts too (if you know any), but prefer a deep, balanced, lengthy article.
Cant go past chris masterjohn
http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/
Chris Masterjohn on cholesterol & heart disease (Part 1)
https://chriskresser.com/the-healthy...st-episode-11/
Chris Masterjohn on cholesterol & heart disease (part 2)
https://chriskresser.com/episode-16-...isease-part-2/
RHR: Chris Masterjohn on Cholesterol and Heart Disease (Part 3)
https://chriskresser.com/chris-maste...isease-part-3/


I also wonder, what is your personal stance on the cholesterol debate? I'd like to read it very much. Do you care about the amount of cholesterol you eat?
It's a u-shaped curve,
too high = higher mortality,
too low = higher mortality....
Eat as much as i want all the time.
High SDLDL (small dense LDL) is dangerouds but why Small and dense - listen to chris talk to chris


[1] sorry its from this turd rag, but you get the idea
take test to find out which carbs they can eat safely and which they should avoid
https://www.thesun.co.uk/living/3185...-should-avoid/
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