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Crohn's Disease Forum » Diet, Fitness, and Supplements » Ketogenic diets, any risks?


 
09-10-2017, 03:15 PM   #121
Crohn2357
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Soaking and rinsing the rice before cooking it reduces the arsenic content:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/arti...nic-in-my-rice
http://www.health.com/food/how-to-re...rsenic-in-rice
https://www.treehugger.com/green-foo...t-arsenic.html
09-10-2017, 06:18 PM   #122
hugh
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Crohn2357,
This might interest you,
Robb wolf podcast about salt.....
https://robbwolf.com/2017/08/29/episode-371-dr-james-dinicolantonio-the-salt-fix/
09-10-2017, 09:22 PM   #123
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Thanks, I'll listen to it.

By the way, in the above post, the way they cook the rice to reduce the arsenic content is called "pasta method". From now on, I'll use this method.

Cooking rice with a substantial surplus of water that is thendiscardedreduc-es the arsenic content in rice by up to 70 per cent.
•As an individual consumer it is difficult to influence the intake of inorganicarsenic from food, since there are many sources. Obviously one way is to eatless rice and rice products, but for consumers who eat a good deal of rice aspart of meals or as a whole meal, the way the rice is cooked can also be signif-icant. When the rice is cooked in an excess amount of water, which is thendiscarded when the rice is cooked, the amount of arsenic in the rice is decreased by 40 to 70 per cent. In order to reduce exposure to arsenic, there istherefore good reason to inform that levels of arsenic in rice can be reduced ifthe rice is cooked in excess water that is then poured away when the rice isready. The study shows that simply rinsing the rice before cooking has nogreat effect on the level of inorganic arsenic in the rice. Cooking rice in such away that the water cooks in until the rice becomes dry does not affect the levelof inorganic arsenic in the rice.
•Information that the level of arsenic in rice can be affected by preparation isvery important for companies that produce rice products. Changing the pro-duction of rice products would probably have a considerably greater effect onarsenic exposure than the individual consumer’s preparation of rice. This isbecause exposure to arsenic comes not only from the rice that is cooked athome but also from many other types of products (such as rice snacks, ricedrinks and rice porridge).
https://www.livsmedelsverket.se/glob...management.pdf

This chart shows an 80% reduction of arsenic caused by the combination of soaking the rice and using "the pasta method" of cooking:
09-11-2017, 08:28 AM   #124
Crohn2357
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Crohn2357,
This might interest you,
Robb wolf podcast about salt.....
https://robbwolf.com/2017/08/29/epis...-the-salt-fix/
hugh, this is a GREAT podcast. Thanks again for sharing with me.
09-11-2017, 08:35 PM   #125
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InstantCoffee, feel free to give further ideas on the rice, if you have any. I'd appreciate it.

Secondly, what's your take on the broth - lead contamination topic?

Do you drink bone broth?
No opinion, not informed on the topic enough. I feel like I can get all the same benefits without the lead contamination risk from other sources though. Basically the same way I feel about rice. I'm gonna stick with oats.
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09-13-2017, 05:46 AM   #126
Crohn2357
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I feel like I can get all the same benefits without the lead contamination risk from other sources though.
What are those sources?

L-Glutamine? Collagen Hydrolysate?

I've thought the cross reactivity issue could be problematic. So I've always stayed away from it. But some research shows that if you're eating gluten free diet then it may not be an issue:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18224563
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16373275
The majority of non-celiac gluten sensitivity patients (93.2%) showed the disappearance of anti-gliadin antibodies of IgG class after 6 months of gluten-free diet; in contrast, 16/40 (40%) of celiac patients displayed the persistence of these antibodies after gluten withdrawal. In non-celiac gluten sensitivity patients anti-gliadin antibodies IgG persistence after gluten withdrawal was significantly correlated with the low compliance to gluten-free diet and a mild clinical response.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24524388

Be careful with wheat contamination.

------ ------ ------ ------

Edit: Here is a graphic showing some gluten cross-reactors:
https://thepaleomomcom-xt0mxgicgroc....eactors-01.jpg

From: https://www.thepaleomom.com/gluten-c...-giving-it-up/

------ ------ ------ ------

http://paleofoundation.com/19-gluten...eactive-foods/

Last edited by Crohn2357; 09-13-2017 at 04:53 PM.
09-13-2017, 12:57 PM   #127
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"Better than wheat, worse (and more work to improve) than rice."

Says Mark Sisson.

Comment section has different opinions on oats.

This is Mark's article about rice.
09-23-2017, 12:45 PM   #128
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His basis is demonizing phytates and the possibility of cross-reactivity.
Phytates, however, are not inherently bad as they have been linked to reduced incidences of digestive cancer.
https://www.youtube.com/user/Nutriti...query=phytates
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgihTBZrOvY
09-23-2017, 05:03 PM   #129
hugh
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His basis is demonizing phytates and the possibility of cross-reactivity.
Phytates, however, are not inherently bad as they have been linked to reduced incidences of digestive cancer.
https://www.youtube.com/user/Nutriti...query=phytates
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgihTBZrOvY
One big problem with the internet is that you can find 'experts' with wildly conflicting views quoting scientific papers that seem to support their views.
I have a pretty low opinion of vegan propaganda, so NutriotionFacts.org is pretty low on my personal list of reliable information. I mean seriously, what else is a vegan gonna say?

As usual the truth is a bit more nuanced,
Phytates do interfere with nutrient absorption so if you are nutritionally chalanged you may do well to limit or avoid them. Having said that almost all 'antinutrients' can have a beneficial effect [1].
Like almost everything it is a 'U' shaped curve.
Somewhere between too much and too little, good luck working out what that is....
Personally, oats make me squirt from the wrong end so I don't eat them

[1] http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/096399699390069U
09-24-2017, 08:09 AM   #130
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Vegans and paleo need to have a battle royale, I'll just assume the winners are right because their diet made them stronger. Both of them lean pretty strongly on conflicting studies.

Both oats and psyllium husks have the effect where they pull cholesterol to make bile and both have extremely positive effects on my digestion, can't explain it but I think there's something to it, and I don't think it's the fiber because plenty of other fiberous foods have no benefit, or are harmful to my digestion.
09-30-2017, 09:17 AM   #131
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hugh, I bought the L-Glutamine supplements.

Have you tried it yet? I understand that the dosage used for Crohn's Disease is higher (around 30 grams a day) than the doses used in the physical training area.

How much grams of l-glutamine would you (do you?) use in a day? For how long would you keep taking it?

Back to the neurotoxicity concerns...

Glutamine: A Trojan Horse in Ammonia Neurotoxicity
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index...rocytes.38680/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4714775/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11754523

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2566647

BTW, have you seen this new Cochrane review?
Currently there is insufficient evidence to allow firm conclusions regarding the efficacy and safety of glutamine for induction of remission in Crohn's disease. Data from two small studies suggest that glutamine supplementation may not be beneficial in active Crohn's disease but these results need to be interpreted with caution as they are based on small numbers of patients. This review highlights the need for adequately powered randomised controlled trials to investigate the efficacy and safety of glutamine for induction of remission in Crohn's disease.
10-01-2017, 08:53 PM   #132
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Not something I have thought about too much.
Saw the review, but there is science to say it helps with leaky gut and digestive issues.
Bound to be many threads on the forum, haps on the interweb
10-02-2017, 02:29 AM   #133
hugh
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hugh, I bought the L-Glutamine supplements.
Have you tried it yet? I understand that the dosage used for Crohn's Disease is higher (around 30 grams a day) than the doses used in the physical training area.
How much grams of l-glutamine would you (do you?) use in a day? For how long would you keep taking it?

ack to the neurotoxicity concerns..
If i were testing it on myself i would follow these guys advice to the letter.....

L-Glutamine: 7 Surprising Do’s and Don’ts for People with Leaky Gut & Autoimmunity
"Too much, too soon of any supplement can cause issues and L-Glutamine is no different. The best way to use this supplement is to slowly ramp the dosage up over a few weeks. This allows the body to grow comfortable and reduces the chances of overwhelm."
"Last reminder, if you experience any negative reactions, stop the supplement or reduce your dosage right away. More on why this happens below, but for now take a few days at a lower dosage, or off, and then try again. If you still react, then it’s probably not right for you at this time. "

https://scdlifestyle.com/2015/09/l-g...dos-and-donts/
10-02-2017, 01:20 PM   #134
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Thanks. Instead of using it daily; I will use it if my intestines get worse, because of the neurotoxicity concerns.

The claims look incredible on the paper; but one important thing most of the times the paleo writers lack is discussing the counter arguments.

Neurotoxicity is a big deal, and I don't want to mess with it. I'll stick to drinking bone broth to heal my gut - it does a wonderful job; and it is probably safer, in terms of any kind of toxicity.

Primum non nocere.

Last edited by Crohn2357; 10-02-2017 at 03:54 PM.
10-02-2017, 05:24 PM   #135
hugh
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I will use it if my intestines get worse, because of the neurotoxicity concerns.
Not sure the concerns are real, like many of these things. I'm sure it is a good theory there might not be much behind it....
"Conclusion
Intravenous glutamine in clinically relevant doses leaves cerebral glutamate unaffected. "
https://link.springer.com/article/10...134-006-0375-3


The claims look incredible on the paper; but one important thing most of the times the paleo writers lack is discussing the counter arguments.
I'm not sure how many times the article I linked to warned to take it easy and stop at the first hint of trouble.. .

Last edited by hugh; 10-02-2017 at 08:38 PM.
10-03-2017, 01:22 AM   #136
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"Conclusion
Intravenous glutamine in clinically relevant doses leaves cerebral glutamate unaffected. "
https://link.springer.com/article/10...134-006-0375-3
I read the full text of that study. It would be much better if it were not done on patients with head trauma. This is not a reliable study to depend on for individuals with no brain trauma, like us.

From the Discussion:
The normal interstitial concentration of glutamate in the brain is less than 10 μmol/l [12]. Among the patients
studied, there was one clear outlier in interstitial glutamine
concentration, and in addition four patients had clearly elevated
concentrations of glutamate. However, these elevated
levels of glutamate were totally independent of intravenous
administration of glutamine, and they did not change over
time. High interstitial glutamate concentrations in individual
patients have been reported in most studies involving
interstitial glutamate concentration measurements in brain
injury patients [10, 11, 12, 13].
This is only one study, and they say there are no others. Still, better than nothing.

Not sure the concerns are real, like many of these things. I'm sure it is a good theory there might not be much behind it....
From the same text:
Case reports have been published in which high concentrations of
glutamate in the interstitial fluid adjacent to brain injury
were found in neurosurgical patients [10, 11, 12, 13]. It
has been suggested that a high concentration of glutamate
may be associated with cerebral swelling and a high
intracranial pressure (ICP). However, the mechanism
behind the possible relation between high interstitial
glutamate concentration and high ICP is still obscure [13,
14]. Nevertheless, there is a fear that exogenous glutamine
supplementation may increase interstitial glutamate concentration
intracerebrally in brain injury patients, resulting
in detrimental effects upon outcome.
I'm not sure how many times the article I linked to warned to take it easy and stop at the first hint of trouble.. .
To warn to take it easy and stop at the first hint of trouble is not discussing the counter arguments. No one needs "experts" to say that; this is common knowledge for many people. The problem is, if these people are experts, than they should research, find, collect and discuss the counter arguments in the same article as best as they can, with an objective mind. This is how you analyse.
10-04-2017, 01:27 AM   #137
hugh
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I think we have been here before....
Yes, getting it from food is best.

To warn to take it easy and stop at the first hint of trouble is not discussing the counter arguments.
I'm open to looking at the counter arguments but there is very little out there (and i'm not referring to paleo websites) other than liver and mania issues.

No one needs "experts" to say that; this is common knowledge for many people. The problem is, if these people are experts, than they should research, find, collect and discuss the counter arguments in the same article as best as they can, with an objective mind. This is how you analyse.
I look forward to the 'collection' of counter arguments as i haven't seen any (other than those mentioned above).
Other than cautioning you to take it easy and stop at the first sign of trouble what else should they do?
-Trawl forums looking for anecdotal evidence to support the recommendation for caution that they already made?
10-04-2017, 01:35 PM   #138
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"Mania issues" are not the primary problem, they're just symptoms of the underlying problem, which is neurotoxicity, and who knows what it does to your brain.



"cautioning you to take it easy and stop at the first sign of trouble"

That is not enough on its own. You may have serious physiological problems but they may not show any sign of trouble at all.
Observations of the symptoms (the observable effects) are not reliable on their own, in my opinion. I think they should acknowledge people about the risks (neurotoxicity, for example) by stating them explicitly in the same article. Not because they are true (it doesn't matter if they haven't been falsified yet), but because these counter thoughts exist, and some people may benefit from knowing them.



"what else should they do?
-Trawl forums looking for anecdotal evidence to support the recommendation for caution that they already made?"

They can google these keywords to see some of the papers: "glutamine toxicity pubmed" , "glutamine neurotoxicty pubmed". This is just one thing, among many, they can do. It's their job to know how to search for the claims of potential dangers on any health advise they make.

Last edited by Crohn2357; 10-05-2017 at 03:21 AM.
10-05-2017, 01:52 AM   #139
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"Mania issues" are not the primary problem, they're just symptoms of the underlying problem, which is neurotoxicity, and who knows what it does to your brain.

"cautioning you to take it easy and stop at the first sign of trouble"

That is not enough on its own. You may have serious physiological problems but they may not show any sign of trouble at all.
Observations of the symptoms (the observable effects) are not reliable on their own, in my opinion. I think they should acknowledge people about the risks (neurotoxicity, for example) by stating them explicitly in the same article. Not because they are true (it doesn't matter if they haven't falsified yet), but because these counter thoughts exist, and some people may benefit from knowing them.

"what else should they do?
-Trawl forums looking for anecdotal evidence to support the recommendation for caution that they already made?"

They can google these keywords to see some of the papers: "glutamine toxicity pubmed" , "glutamine neurotoxicty pubmed". This is just one thing, among many, they can do. It's their job to know how to search for the claims of potential dangers on any health advise they make.
I'm struggling to find anything other than the theory that excess glutamine promotes hepatic encephalopathy in people with liver disease, which is serious, but still just a theory.

Glutamine is the most abundant amino acid in the blood and is continuously circulating so we are obviously able to regulate uptake as required (unless we aren't able, which is your point). With a healthy liver it appears that ammonia build-up is not an issue, but the science is way over my head and, to be honest, out of my interest range.
As evidence appears and theory turns to knowledge i am sure websites will be updated.....

It is still a conditionally essential amino acid so i'm still going to eat foods containing large amounts of glutamine (but not take glutamine supplements), and not feel in the least bit worried about it, just like i'm going to eat bone broth and not worry about lead....
10-05-2017, 03:31 AM   #140
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It is still a conditionally essential amino acid so i'm still going to eat foods containing large amounts of glutamine (but not take glutamine supplements), and not feel in the least bit worried about it, just like i'm going to eat bone broth and not worry about lead....
Agreed.
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