"@hugh You're mixing many things together that I like to keep split. You are mixing three things together.
-a self-directed response invoked by an autoantigen resulting in autoimmunity
-a response against indigenous gut flora
-a response against pathogens"
I'm not sure how you can separate them, It's like pulling one piece of cotton out of the Bauer tapestry and saying “Look. Yellow”
There are many of the microbes and other gut flora that can be classed as 'opportunistic pathogens', They are a normal part of a healthy gut flora but become pathogens when their numbers are out of control or when the immune system is compromised, -stress, malnutrition antibiotics, even a simple breach (leaky gut)).
Autoantigens are a different beast but only that they are a few more steps along in the chain.
"It might help explain my previous post, one of those is causative in crohn's disease, not all 3. You can support one of those 3 but you can not support all 3 at once. The book about Elaine regarding SCD deals mostly with the gut flora, not with autoimmunity or a directed response against a pathogen."
I assume that no.1 is the one that you feel is causative- the 'self directed response' but in my thinking that's not the cause, that is a result of toxins, damaged immunity, opportunistic pathogens, malnutrition.
It's the
endproduct of a cascade that begins (in part) with food.
It's a while since I read 'BTVC' but as I understand it, Elaine proposed that since di- and polysaccharides could not be (as) readily absorbed in the small intestine they were available for 'bad' bacteria to breed, and in her theory it was by-products of the 'bad' bacteria that caused damage to the villi, so my interpretation is that these acidic and toxic wastes from the out of control party in the gut (along with lectins from grains, legumes -the thinking from paleo) causes permeability (allowing access to gut bacteria and bacterial proteins and eventually leading to autoimmunity).
Elaine stopped there because if it is stopped at this stage then the rest doesn't happen,
If it isn't stopped there.....
“Malnutrition impairs the immune response to toxins and slows the healing of intestinal injuries. This makes the intestine even more leaky and damaged.
Damaged immunity allows bacteria to penetrate the gut mucosa and infect intestinal cells, and to enter the body and create systemic infections including intracellular infections of immune cells. The immune response to these infections creates an inflammatory environment which makes the gut even leakier. The infections also weaken the ability of the immune system to heal the gut.
Entry of toxins and bacteria into the body leads to autoimmunity. Food toxins conjugate with human proteins and provoke antibodies against the human protein; bacterial proteins that are ‘molecular mimics’ of human proteins engender antibodies that strike both the bacterial and human proteins.”
http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2010/07/ulcerative-colitis-a-devastating-gut-disease/
There's been quite a bit of research suggesting that once the permeability is addressed then ALL aotoimmune diseases stop.
A new paradigm replacing that old one “your body has turned on itself, we don't know why but you will have it forever” - which should always be translated as doctorspeak for ”we don't know”
"Personally I am not convinced that we somehow lost tolerance for the indigenous gut flora, it's an explanation with a number of flaws which I and many people have explained in the multimedia section (crohn's disease is transmural, it features patchy inflammation, loss of tolerance to the gut flora isn't a feature found in any other diseases etc)
The immune system has specific barriers in place that prevent an overreactive response against the content of the gut lumen, there are many checks the adapative immune system goes through before it is activated, may I also remind that I know of no other disease in history where loss of tolerance to the gut flora has ever been a feature."
This is getting a bit long and it's late but i'm gonna press on.
I don't mind if you are not convinced, and wish you well in your management of your health.
'Indigenous gut flora' refers to one of the most complex and little understood ecosystems in existence,
A healthy balance is crucial for both nutrition and immunity.
The main purpose of the whole immune system is to regulate the contact between the world outside the body (including inside the gut) and the world outside the body.
The mucosal layer supported by a healthy gut flora are the first level of a three tiered system and are constantly monitored by the second layer, the innate immune system, which is a generic response to whatever makes it through the physical barriers.
The third layer, the adaptive immune system learns to deal with the situations not covered by the first two
but over-activity can lead to pathological inflammation and/or autoimmunity.
My thought is rather than focusing on the failings of the overstressed last line of defence, time and effort is better spent on the repairing or preventing the breakdown of the first line of defence, the gut lining and associated flora.
As far as “
no other disease in history where loss of tolerance to the gut flora has ever been a feature” is concerned......
WHAT!!!!, that's a whole 'nother 10 pages......
The words 'loss of tolerance" are a bit confusing,
You're looking for a direct one step, bacteria in/disease out, not steps in between?
Abnormal microbia are linked to so many diseases, Crohns and colitis, lupis, obesity, diabeties (1 and 2), hashimotos, autism, asthma and on and on, cause? result? coincidence? i don't know
If your looking for a simple 'person with gene X has excess bacteria B that is causing antibody Y leading to autoimmune disease Z then I don't think it's ever going to happen.