Crohn's seems to be very very different from an autoimmune disease.I find this confusing. If your immune system is attacking your body, isn't that still autoimmune? Even if it's via a different mechanism than other autoimmune diseases?
Gasthuisberg is where the study is being done and where I go. It's the University clinic of Belgium and works together with the KUL, that's the medical university (where I also study).Well it's not exactly "one" opinion, it's the widely held opinion by the medical community at this time. I would love to read about the study you have been involved in. Have they published any of their results yet or do they have information about it somewhere? Who is doing the study?
Stop spreading fud from Wikipedia. spreading info and denouncing it as absolute truth is TERRIBLEInfliximab does not "stimulate and normalise the immune system".
Why, so they can write halftruths as truths?.
(I'm glad people can't randomly change Wikipedia pages!)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19437144 is helpfulNobody knows the cause of Crohn's and I don't think anyone is trying to say that they do. But it is known that the immune system is involved (at whatever point) and I think that's good enough for me to refer to it as an autoimmune disease. But it may be semantics.
I think it would be absolutely tragic if we allowed ourselves to be pigeonholed and only researched one element, but I don't think that has happened. There is a lot of evidence that supports the idea that it is an autoimmune disease. I think that's why your posts are so fascinating to me. This is the first I have heard about any of this so I will be eager to see the results. I am not sure exactly what they are trying to figure out? It is known that biologics work by binding to TNF-alpha, which thus prevents its action in inflammation. I think this is more a "treat the symptoms than the cause" approach, because it doesn't address why there is an excessive amount of TNF-alpha causing inflammation in the first place. But given that TNF-alpha is a protein of the immune system, I think it is safe to say the immune system is on board. I would also be fascinated to learn how a biologic "targets" MAP. My interest is certainly piqued.
From Wikipedia:The fact that Wikipedia says Crohn's is an autoimmune disease while there is a lot of evidence that shows it is not, is horrible.
They're not saying IS, they're saying thought to be.Crohn's disease is thought to be an autoimmune disease, in which the body's immune system attacks the gastrointestinal tract, causing inflammation; it is classified as a type of inflammatory bowel disease.
That is correct, however, there are other TNFa blockers that are ineffective against Crohn's Disease. This study showcases the differences between one TNFa blocker that doesn't work and Remicade.Umm. Well this is fun! I could be wrong, but I thought Infliximab was specifically engineered from mouse proteins to block TNFa? Like, specifically engineered to suppress? I don't think it was just some medicine they found to mess with Crohn's, like penicillin or whatever.
isn't that weird? how certain ones work, and others don't, but they seemingly do the same thing?That is correct, however, there are other TNFa blockers that are ineffective against Crohn's Disease. This study showcases the differences between one TNFa blocker that doesn't work and Remicade.
In the end, they're not completely sure why Remicade works, it's theoretical at this point.
why wouldn't there be?why would there be a hereditary component if it was just a bacteria?
that's right, my dad had Crohn's tooi know a few people with crohn's though, my dad and me included, and they seem to be a relatively healthy lot. my dad and i almost never get sick. you would think that most people with a regular, strong immune system would be able to fight something like that off. because if it's that prevalent (apparently in dairy and red meat) then a lot of people with weaker immune systems would be getting crohn's, right?
there are other people trying anti-map treatment too http://www.centralfloridafuture.com/news/professor-patents-test-for-possible-crohn-s-disease-cure-1.2646645#.TpqUlrIR9Bki did a little googling of that john hermon-taylor, the one that started the research on the MAP link. supposedly he's been raising funding for research/vaccine since 2001. haven't read anything about it in the last 3 years. does he just not have $$ or is the research not going well? i read something that when they do the MAP treatments that it works in about 50% of patients, although some have relapses. no % on relapses. that seems like about the same success rate as imuran or the biologics.
There are many more tests that show that crohn's is an immune deficiency than there are that confirm that crohn's is an autoimmune disease, in fact, I don't know of a single study that showed that crohn's is an autoimmune disease.I find it incredible that individual views, backed by perhaps a small amount of information
lol, whatever, it's there black on white, I could link you 1000 studies and you would still say I'm wrongYou've missed the point entirely kiny. I can't say it any clearer other than that your research is heavily biased and very incomplete
but if it reproduces that slowly, why would you have flares and remissions? wouldn't it be more likely you would have a gradual increase in symptoms?MAP also reproduces really slowly, it might explain why people have ups and downs and are able to be 'crohn free' for years
the idea currently, as you can read from the study from Anthony Segal, is that the first phase is the bacterial infection (MAP is the most likely candidate, but not the only one), because our immune system is "defect" see NOD2 gene, this causes the initial inflammationbut if it reproduces that slowly, why would you have flares and remissions? wouldn't it be more likely you would have a gradual increase in symptoms?
i'm no scientist. i'm just curious.
isn't overcompensation of the immune system the hallmark of autoimmune? if it were an immune deficiency then you would also be at risk for other illnesses. again, the people i know that have crohns are generally very healthy, aside from their guts.the idea currently, as you can read from the study from Anthony Segal, is that the first phase is the bacterial infection (MAP is the most likely candidate, but not the only one), because our immune system is "defect" see NOD2 gene, this causes the initial inflammation
the second phase is that our body overcompensates, which is the immune response
(this is not an autoimmune disease, this is a immune deficiency in phase 1)
why flare ups can be short or long, even though the MAP bacteria reproduces so slow...I don't know
you areif it were an immune deficiency then you would also be at risk for other illnesses
I don't know every treatment, but you can clearly see humera and infliximab and LDN are the best treatments so far, just talking to people with crohn's in our clinic confirms this studyoh, and even what you say is true about the biologics somehow helping to "kill" this particular bacteria, what about all the other immunosuppressants that people do well on? imuran, 6mp? again, shouldn't these make symptoms worse?
when I had a flare up I went to the hospital and they had to take blood samples before they gave me infliximab, I had very low blood pressure and just getting one blood sample was very hardYou bring up a good point about blood circulation. People with Crohn's tend to have more blood clots, and in general seem to have "sticky blood". Thick blood provides a place for pathogens to avoid being destroyed by the immune system and even antibiotics.
I think an important part of a treatment program is to thin out the blood to eliminate this problem. One of many reasons I take Krill Oil, Tumeric, and Ginger on a daily basis to make the blood more viscous and thin it out some. These will also lower your blood pressure somewhat. No real downside to using any of these, but many possible benefits.
Dan
this happens all the time, the reason is a lack of water in the blood, and getting samples can be really hard, I know because I take blood samples myselfAnd are we supposed to believe that nurses can prick people but they won't bleed if their blood is too thick. I give up!
While it's neat and I like the idea, you can't post something like this and claim it showcases that "X is clearly better".I don't know every treatment, but you can clearly see humera and infliximab and LDN are the best treatments so far, just talking to people with crohn's in our clinic confirms this study
imuran, I took this also, seems to be far less effective as inflixmab, however, both used together seem to be better than only infliximab, is it because imuran stops infliximab antibodies? not sure
Well, what I said that studies show that infliximab, humira and LDN are clearly superior to other meds.While it's neat and I like the idea, you can't post something like this and claim it showcases that "X is clearly better".
My ONLY interest here is that people get as correct of information as possible. My issue with your posts is you're utilizing these studies incorrectly. For example, you post an abstract above stating:Well, what I said that studies show that infliximab, humira and LDN are clearly superior to other meds.
People asked to post more info and don't take any pubmed or serious publications serious because each time I link them one or tow people act like it isn't true.
If those people do not believe me that is fine, those same results can be found at pubmed and lancelot.
I just don't have the time atm to find them all and to sort them all.
The idea that I should find a publication for every single sentence I post here is ridiculous. No one did that in this whole tread BUT ME and each time I do people claim the researchers are wrong or I am wrong for posting it.
There is no helping some people.
When I click through to that study, what do I get if I read it?liny said:Another study:
"Crohn's disease: an immune deficiency state."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19437144
You're linking to that study stating that it claims Crohn's Disease IS an immune deficiency state. All that abstract says it that they're reviewing it. Where are the conclusions of the study? For all we know they found that it in fact was NOT an immune deficiency state.study said:A substantial body of data has emerged in recent years to suggest that the primary defect in Crohn's disease is actually one of relative immunodeficiency. This review considers the evidence for such a phenomenon in contrast to alternative prevailing hypotheses and attempts to address some of the potential paradoxes that it generates.
Please link me to the study to read.you read the abstract, not the study
you need to make an account, show you're a member of a school or university or tell them in writing you want accessPlease link me to the study to read.
I assume you have access since you're using it as a source. Please post the conclusions of the article.you need to make an account, show you're a member of a school or university or tell them in writing you want access
If you're referring to me, I was not attacking Kiny. As I stated earlier in the thread, it is my job to ensure that the best possible information is being presented on this forum. There is a tremendous amount of misinformation on the internet and it is harming people. I have zero problem with MAP being postulated as a cause of Crohn's Disease or anything else that was opined in this thread. In fact, I think it's wonderful! But putting forth one's opinions also means you open yourself up to peer review on this site so that the mere opinion can be separated from fact. And whether you're able or unable to backup your assertions allows other people to make educated decisions based upon fact rather than opinion, something incredibly important when it comes to one's health.I kinda like we had a bit of attacking going on here. I enjoyed Kiny's responses to flowergirl's questions. There's no real need for "i give up!" and hating on someone's opinions. Furthermore, I don't find any real reason to be upset because kiny posted his opinion, on things that he found, and tried to help flowergirl. Even if you disagree with the validity of his chart, it's just a theory.
Flowergirl: You asked all the questions I had intended to Seeing as I was too lazy to actually look at anything, I just kinda read what you posted, and what kiny said in return. Very interesting. hahai hope i wasn't the one offending. i was just sort of thinking out loud. i have no answers. my theatre degree does not lend itself to scientific pursuits. :tongue:
Oh dear, I hope no-one is actually being taken in by that completely non-scientific 'study' chart of effectiveness . . . Flowergirl, your queries (which remain unanswered) are excellent.
And are we supposed to believe that nurses can prick people but they won't bleed if their blood is too thick. I give up!