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09-04-2010, 01:20 PM   #1
GoJohnnyGo
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IBD not an autoimmune disease, new research suggests

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Interesting tangent.
09-04-2010, 02:19 PM   #2
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I find this confusing. If your immune system is attacking your body, isn't that still autoimmune? Even if it's via a different mechanism than other autoimmune diseases?
09-04-2010, 04:17 PM   #3
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Thanks for posting GJG. It certainly is interesting!

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09-04-2010, 06:06 PM   #4
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It is interesting and I have to say it is also a bit confusing at the same time.

Thanks for posting this info GJG
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09-04-2010, 06:17 PM   #5
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I found this to be highly interesting and much more plausible than current theories!
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10-17-2010, 06:42 PM   #6
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wow that was interesting. Hopefully some better therapies develop, more targeted and without the weird side effects. thanks for the post GJG!
12-03-2010, 08:41 PM   #7
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I understand what they say but it altogher confusing. If anyone looks at Crohns and other autoimmune diseases, they all have the same symptoms, complications and treatments. Crohns is probably an autoimmune disease, it behaves too much like all the other ones. The TNF alpha blockers (Remicade, Humira, Cimzia) all used to treat Crohns along with RA, UC, psorias, and others. If researchers and doctors WANT to find the cure, they need to stop coming up with 20 different theories as to what is the cause of the disease.
12-04-2010, 06:12 PM   #8
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Im sorry if this comes off wrong tflock but maybe the reason they cant find the cure or even a cause is because they havent found the right theory to work off of. Imagine with say a car thinking god that ticking sound is definately coming from the transmission and trying to fix it when actually the problem is with say a tire, you could research and try 1000 different things with the transmission anf no fix. Same could be said with this, maybe if this is correct, and thats a fairly reputable university then maybe we will have better medicine, less side effects, and with a miracle maybe a cure.
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12-05-2010, 10:42 AM   #9
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It makes sense with what u are saying. I understand their reasoning with so many avenues of research, because they have to make sure. It is just frustrating because the longer no definitive answer or research approach is found, the longer the cure for this is not found. Some articles I have read say that Crohns could possibly be an irreversible change. I am just frustrated by the fact that instead of working to find the MOST probably cause of the disease, researchers explore so many hypotheses to what could cause this. I understand that they have to use more than one theory (and I am glad they do) but most GI doctor will probably tell you that it falls under as a autoimmune disease.
12-06-2010, 04:43 PM   #10
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I may be completely off base here, but I am thinking aloud.

Do they know what causes the other auto-immune diseases, such as psorais, RA, or even Lupus?
If they are all the same type of disease, and have interchangeable symptoms could the route cause be similar to that in these other diseases? and maybe somewhere along the way it manifests differently or in a different part of the body which differentiates the different diseases?

Okay I rambled a little bit, I hope this makes sense.
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12-08-2010, 01:25 AM   #11
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Interesting, first time I've heard of anything like this.
12-08-2010, 03:48 AM   #12
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I also read the article BUT, it doesn't say that IBD is not an autoimmune disease.

It says that based on research on another auto-inflammatory disease (cryopyrin-associated periodic syndromes (CAPS)) they now believe that CAPS disease is regulated by the innate NOT adaptive immune system. They used a special research method and suggested using it for IBD research. The special method is mice with genetic information inserted into a particular part of the genome. Poor mousy

I sure do hope for more research...
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10-14-2011, 07:36 AM   #13
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interesting article
10-14-2011, 08:07 AM   #14
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I think they are barking up the wrong tree as far as Crohn's is concerned, and most if not all other autoimmune diseases.

Pathogens cause disease, and that is true most all of the time. There are many thousands of organisms that are not even yet identified that live in the body. The effects on the body that the ones they know about are not even all that well known.

They may be able to stop the bodies response to these pathogens, and that may lead to a useful treatment, but runs the risk of allowing the pathogen to spread further.

Just my opinion based on my own observations.

Dan
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10-14-2011, 08:08 AM   #15
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it also could mean that some people's autoimmune process is innate and some adaptive. could be why some people do well on biologics and others don't.
10-14-2011, 09:57 AM   #16
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Very interesting. Thanks for sharing this, Johnny.
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10-15-2011, 10:16 AM   #17
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I find this confusing. If your immune system is attacking your body, isn't that still autoimmune? Even if it's via a different mechanism than other autoimmune diseases?
Crohn's seems to be very very different from an autoimmune disease.

One reason is how Infliximab (remicade) works. Infliximab might be promoting the immune system, NOT decrease it like imuran.

I am getting infliximab and one of the tests here in Belgium I had to sign, if it was ok to get one more blood sample each time to test what Infliximab actually does. THey want to know what it actually does, and they think that Infliximab stimulates and normalises the immune system instead of decreasing it, which goes completely against the notion that crohn's is an autoimmune disease.

Same thing happens which Low Dose Naltrexone, which works for Crohn's disease, and this drug ALSO stimulates and normalises the immune system, again completely contradictory to an autoimmune disease.

Doctors were very surprised that Low Dose Naltrexone actually worked on Crohn's btw.

If Crohn's was simply an autoimmune disease, these 2 drugs should be making the disease worse, but they don't, both drugs are one of the most effective if not the most effective against Crohn's.

Last edited by kiny; 10-15-2011 at 12:27 PM.
10-15-2011, 10:39 AM   #18
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Also, I don't know how you are supposed to change that Wikipedia page about Crohn's disease, but it should not say that Crohn's is an autoimmune disease, because that is just one opinion, and likely not the right one, I just don't know how to properly change this. It's been wrongly marked like that for years.

Someone should change it, I pulled out that sentence at one time and it got changed back. It should be more correct.
10-15-2011, 11:29 AM   #19
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Well it's not exactly "one" opinion, it's the widely held opinion by the medical community at this time. I would love to read about the study you have been involved in. Have they published any of their results yet or do they have information about it somewhere? Who is doing the study?
10-15-2011, 11:35 AM   #20
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Well it's not exactly "one" opinion, it's the widely held opinion by the medical community at this time. I would love to read about the study you have been involved in. Have they published any of their results yet or do they have information about it somewhere? Who is doing the study?
Gasthuisberg is where the study is being done and where I go. It's the University clinic of Belgium and works together with the KUL, that's the medical university (where I also study).

The study is private, so the form just gets given to us, but the results will surely be published as they always do.


As far as "it's the widely held opinion by the medical community at this time", well, that's not the case here, and I really wish people would stop spreading this info, it might be for the general population, but here doctors do not seem to put this disease just into one simple category, if they did, LDN would have never been tried on anyone.

If you de facto treat this disease as an autoimmune disease, you are not only depriving yourself of the right medication, you are also perpetuating the idea that we already know the cause of this disease, and we obviously do not at this point in time.

The more studies that are being done, the less sense it makes to say Crohn's is an autoimmune disease.

Last edited by kiny; 10-16-2011 at 03:40 AM.
10-15-2011, 12:20 PM   #21
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Infliximab does not "stimulate and normalise the immune system". It is an anti TNF alpha drug which means it prevents the destructive inflammatory process caused by inflammatory cytokines (TNF alpha.) LDN is believed to be an immune regulator, not a stimulator.
It is an interesting article about the difference in innate and adaptive immune function, and the idea that it might be the innate immune system that has more to do with auto-immune diseases than the adaptive immune system.
(I'm glad people can't randomly change Wikipedia pages!)
10-15-2011, 12:21 PM   #22
kiny
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Infliximab does not "stimulate and normalise the immune system".
Stop spreading fud from Wikipedia. spreading info and denouncing it as absolute truth is TERRIBLE

The truth is we don't know what infliximab actually does, at all, that's why there is research being done so we understand what it does.


There is evidence that infliximab normalises and stimulates the immune system, just like LDN.

There is also evidence to show that it might target MAP.

There is also evidence that imuran might target MAP.


Every single one of those things goes 100% against the idea that Crohn's is an autoimune disease.

Last edited by kiny; 10-15-2011 at 12:40 PM.
10-15-2011, 12:26 PM   #23
kiny
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.
(I'm glad people can't randomly change Wikipedia pages!)
Why, so they can write halftruths as truths?

The fact that Wikipedia says Crohn's is an autoimmune disease while there is a lot of evidence that shows it is not, is horrible.

It does a disservice to everyone, including you if you suffer from Crohn's disease.

Wikipedia is not going to cure us, researchers and people who question everything are.

Farmacy companies would love nothing more than to tell you that crohn's is an incurable autoimmune disease, their worst nightmare is when someone proves it's MAP or something else and proves it's simply a bacteria. It would end their industry overnight and we would all be able to get cured.

If people keep perpetuating the idea that Crohn's can only be an autoimmune disease, then it limits people's ability to think outside of the box and to admit that it could be a bacterial disease or something else.

Last edited by kiny; 10-15-2011 at 01:09 PM.
10-15-2011, 01:31 PM   #24
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Nobody knows the cause of Crohn's and I don't think anyone is trying to say that they do. But it is known that the immune system is involved (at whatever point) and I think that's good enough for me to refer to it as an autoimmune disease. But it may be semantics.

I think it would be absolutely tragic if we allowed ourselves to be pigeonholed and only researched one element, but I don't think that has happened. There is a lot of evidence that supports the idea that it is an autoimmune disease. I think that's why your posts are so fascinating to me. This is the first I have heard about any of this so I will be eager to see the results. I am not sure exactly what they are trying to figure out? It is known that biologics work by binding to TNF-alpha, which thus prevents its action in inflammation. I think this is more a "treat the symptoms than the cause" approach, because it doesn't address why there is an excessive amount of TNF-alpha causing inflammation in the first place. But given that TNF-alpha is a protein of the immune system, I think it is safe to say the immune system is on board. I would also be fascinated to learn how a biologic "targets" MAP. My interest is certainly piqued.
10-15-2011, 01:38 PM   #25
tiloah
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I guess what I'm trying to say is people don't refer to it as that arbitrarily. There is evidence to support it. But if it is wrong, there will eventually be enough evidence against it. I think it may take people a while to come around to a different concept (science can be so slow sometimes), myself included.
10-15-2011, 01:40 PM   #26
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Nobody knows the cause of Crohn's and I don't think anyone is trying to say that they do. But it is known that the immune system is involved (at whatever point) and I think that's good enough for me to refer to it as an autoimmune disease. But it may be semantics.

I think it would be absolutely tragic if we allowed ourselves to be pigeonholed and only researched one element, but I don't think that has happened. There is a lot of evidence that supports the idea that it is an autoimmune disease. I think that's why your posts are so fascinating to me. This is the first I have heard about any of this so I will be eager to see the results. I am not sure exactly what they are trying to figure out? It is known that biologics work by binding to TNF-alpha, which thus prevents its action in inflammation. I think this is more a "treat the symptoms than the cause" approach, because it doesn't address why there is an excessive amount of TNF-alpha causing inflammation in the first place. But given that TNF-alpha is a protein of the immune system, I think it is safe to say the immune system is on board. I would also be fascinated to learn how a biologic "targets" MAP. My interest is certainly piqued.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19437144 is helpful

the idea that crohn's is not an autoimmune disease and might be an immune defficiency, goes hand in hand with the idea that it's a bacterial disease and that it is an MAP infection, it would also explain why some medicine work that shouldn't work on an autoimmune disease, that's why more and more people are trying to get to the bottom of this, it also doesn't mean that MAP is the sole reason, there could be people with crohn's who don't have MAP, and tests show there are. But because MAP is incredibly hard to detect, and because the majority of people do have it in abnormal numbers in their blood cultures, it supports the idea that Crohn's is not an autoimmune disease.
10-15-2011, 01:51 PM   #27
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8AYhnLkf9A

the link before can't be fully read without access so this helps too, there are many MAP / Crohn's publications and a lot of info that disprove this is an autoimmune disease

is it proof? I don't know, because there is no cure yet, but we know medicine that works against infections also works against crohn's, not 100% effective, but then tuberculose also took years before people found a reasonable anti-bacteria
10-15-2011, 03:14 PM   #28
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Crohn's has an immune system dysfunction element to it, so autoimmune may or may not be the right term for it. I fully disagree with the notion that the body is attacking its own tissue because it has gone berserk, or that it is going after some harmless bacteria.

From my own experimentation with the MAP bacteria using an alternative treatment method, I have eliminated a spot of Psoriasis on my shin that has been there since my first Crohn's symptoms over five years ago. Two treatments and the Psoriasis swelled up and died right out, and that was five months ago. It has not come back.

I used many many different method to try get rid of it. Some of the most powerful treatments I have available that will stop about anything else. Nothing worked until I targeted the MAP bacteria with specific frequencies that were calculated to disrupt the DNA of this bacteria. This is not an accepted or approved method of treatment, but I have used it for several years and often enough it kills the pathogen you target.

I also gave myself a nasty pain in my guts at the same time. I stopped using the treatment for MAP, as I have another infection of Mycoplasma Pneumonia that I am getting rid of right now. This infection has me disabled, but I am recovering real fast now after taking Zithromax, and a natural antibiotic and frequency treatments for Mycoplasma.

Once I am fully recovered, I will go after the rest of the MAP bacteria if there is any left.

My conclusion from all of this is that I do have the MAP bacteria, it was the cause of my Psoriasis, but I am not certain it causes all Crohn's symptoms, or that it even causes my symptoms. I do know when I disrupt it, I get pain and swelling in the guts.

That is my experience so far with this bacteria.

Dan
10-15-2011, 03:34 PM   #29
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This thread was reported, thus my response below.

The fact that Wikipedia says Crohn's is an autoimmune disease while there is a lot of evidence that shows it is not, is horrible.
From Wikipedia:

Crohn's disease is thought to be an autoimmune disease, in which the body's immune system attacks the gastrointestinal tract, causing inflammation; it is classified as a type of inflammatory bowel disease.
They're not saying IS, they're saying thought to be.

To everyone:

If you strongly disagree with something someone is saying, the best way to go about convincing them otherwise is to source your information from a reputable source and in a diplomatic, supportive manner, prove your assertion. That lets everyone evaluate the source, educate themselves, and change their thinking if warranted.

We're all on the same team here

Thanks
10-15-2011, 06:41 PM   #30
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Umm. Well this is fun! I could be wrong, but I thought Infliximab was specifically engineered from mouse proteins to block TNFa? Like, specifically engineered to suppress? I don't think it was just some medicine they found to mess with Crohn's, like penicillin or whatever.

But I don't know this for sure, so someone else can look it up if they want :/
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