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Crohn's Disease Forum » Treatment » Glutamine and glutathione


08-27-2007, 01:02 PM   #1
Brando
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Join Date: Feb 2007
glutamine and glutathione

found some interesting literature on glutamine. glutamine is regularly used by bodybuilders and athletes pre and post workout because supplementing it helps to speed up the bodies healing process after muscle breakdown. also, glutamine is an amino acid used heavily in the intestinal tract and has been shown to have immunomodulatory effects and has been shown to decrease intestinal permeability in leaky gut syndrome cases. it does a number of things really but one of the major ones that is associated with Crohn's is it working to protect and heal mucousal lining. along with glutathione which is a potent anti-oxidant, it can have some very beneficial effects.

website for info: http:www.pdrhealth.com/drug_info/nmd...lgl_0125.shtml

specific part of the article with what glutamine does:
MECHANISM OF ACTION

Supplemental L-glutamine's possible immunomodulatory role may be accounted for in a number of ways. L-glutamine appears to play a major role in protecting the integrity of the gastrointestinal tract and, in particular, the large intestine. During catabolic states, the integrity of the intestinal mucosa may be compromised with consequent increased intestinal permeability and translocation of Gram-negative bacteria from the large intestine into the body. The demand for L-glutamine by the intestine, as well as by cells such as lymphocytes, appears to be much greater than that supplied by skeletal muscle, the major storage tissue for L-glutamine. L-glutamine is the preferred respiratory fuel for enterocytes, colonocytes and lymphocytes. Therefore, supplying supplemental L-glutamine under these conditions may do a number of things. For one, it may reverse the catabolic state by sparing skeletal muscle L-glutamine. It also may inhibit translocation of Gram-negative bacteria from the large intestine. L-glutamine helps maintain secretory IgA, which functions primarily by preventing the attachment of bacteria to mucosal cells.

L-glutamine appears to be required to support the proliferation of mitogen-stimulated lymphocytes, as well as the production of interleukin-2 (IL-2) and interferon-gamma (IFN-gamma). It is also required for the maintenance of lymphokine-activated killer cells (LAK). L-glutamine can enhance phagocytosis by neutrophils and monocytes. It can lead to an increased synthesis of glutathione in the intestine, which may also play a role in maintaining the integrity of the intestinal mucosa by ameliorating oxidative stress.

The exact mechanism of the possible immunomodulatory action of supplemental L-glutamine, however, remains unclear. It is conceivable that the major effect of L-glutamine occurs at the level of the intestine. Perhaps enteral L-glutamine acts directly on intestine-associated lymphoid tissue and stimulates overall immune function by that mechanism, without passing beyond the splanchnic bed.

The anticatabolic/anabolic activity of supplemental L-glutamine can be explained by its effect in sparing skeletal muscle L-glutamine stores.
08-27-2007, 01:27 PM   #2
Brando
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Join Date: Feb 2007
info on glutathione. it is most notably a powerful antioxidant that can possibly work together with glutamine.

http://www.pdrhealth.com/drug_info/n...glu_0126.shtml

both of these can be found in health stores like GNC. this, along with probiotics and some extra magnesium, calcium, vit. d, and zinc have put me into full remission.. not saying it will work for everyone but maybe it's worth a shot.
08-27-2007, 02:01 PM   #3
D Bergy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
I would be interested in everything you take and how much of each if you care to share the info.

How were your symptoms before and after you started using your supplements?

Thanks for the info on Glutamine and Glutathione. I will have to look into these when I get a chance.

Glad you are doing well.

D Bergy
08-27-2007, 11:41 PM   #4
Brando
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
a list of what i take:

primal defense - started with 1 per day increasing to 3 per day over 2 weeks. chose this one because it has salivarius in it as well as acidophilus and a few others. only other one i have yet to try is a probiotic with Saccharomyces boulardii and Streptococcus thermophilus which i think could be beneficial if you happen to have anything growing inside that these 2 strains in particular fight off. i know sacc works on other yeasts specifically.

glutathione - 1 50mg pill twice daily usually before breakfast and before dinner

glutamine - 1 teaspoon (8g) of "Mega Glutamine" GNC brand before breakfast and before bed. if i workout i take it post workout as well. i take mega glutamine because it has some other stuff in it like some antioxidants added to the formula.

a calcium, magnesium, vit.d, and zinc softgel (all one pill) before breakfast. contains 200iu vit. d, 1g calcium, 500mg magnesium, 10mg zinc. mainly take this because i dont eat dairy and can use the calcium and because prednisone has a tendency to deplete you of all these minerals. unless you eat a superbly balanced diet it is hard to get the daily required amount of these also. it also helps with cramping, specifically the magnesium

i also take Lactaid with the first bite of my food usually in the morning. i'm severly lactose intolerant and it helps because if you eat even the slightest bit of lactose containing food, it will sit in your digestive tract and not get broken down and irritate it. gives me cramps etc.


noticed the first huge improvement when i started taking the primal defense. it didn't cure it but it took alot of inflammation away. having the right flora helps with healing the mucousal lining and i think i was having huge problems with that. magnesium pill helped some with cramps and just general health. when i started taking the glutathione and glutamine a few months ago, it really kicked it in the butt and helped me the rest of the way. i noticed almost immediate effect. it says that glutathione doesnt absorb well but i think it just doesnt make it to the blood stream because the intestinal cells that need it take it in directly.. the glutamine does a number of things but the antioxidant effects along with the healing properties go hand in hand. i had no cramps to speak of after taking these and very little to no inflammation after the first couple weeks.. think it slowly healed it up to a point where it is manageable now.
08-28-2007, 04:18 AM   #5
old hat
 
Glutamine had some promise in animal models of IBD but the results of the (so far limited) clinical trials in humans has been disappointing.
http://www.nature.com/ejcn/journal/v.../1602243a.html
Glutamine-enriched total parenteral nutrition in patients with inflammatory bowel disease
Background: Studies in animal models of inflammatory bowel disease (IBD) suggest that supplementation of total parenteral nutrition with glutamine (gln), a conditionally essential amino acid in catabolic conditions, increases gln plasma concentrations, reduces intestinal damage, improves nitrogen balance and may improve the course of the disease. However, human data supporting this assumption are missing.

Methods: A total of 24 consecutive patients with an acute exacerbation of IBD (19 Crohn's disease; five ulcerative colitis) and scheduled for total parenteral nutrition (TPN) (>7 days) were randomised. Parallel to a standardised anti-inflammatory therapy, the patients received either a TPN with 1.5 g/kg body weight of a standard amino acid or an isonitrogenic, isocaloric TPN with 1.2 g/kg body weight of a standard amino acid and 0.3 g/kg L-alanine-L-glutamine. Primary end points were gln plasma concentrations and intestinal permeability assessed by urinary lactulose and D-xylose ratio.

Results: Gln plasma levels did not differ significantly in either group throughout the study. Intestinal permeability did not change within 7 days either with or without gln supplementation (-lactulose/xylose ratio: 0.010.05 (gln+) vs 0.020.1 (gln-)). The observed changes in inflammatory and nutritional parameters, and also disease activity, length of TPN and hospital stay, were independent of glutamine substitution. Five (41%) patients in the gln+ group and three (25%) patients in the gln- group needed surgical intervention.

Conclusion: Although limited by the sample size, these results do not support the hypothesis that glutamine substitution has an obvious biochemical or clinical benefit in patients with active IBD scheduled for total parenteral nutrition.
--------------
Results for patients in remission have been similar in clinical trials
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...2737499d71c3e1
Glutamine metabolism in Crohn's disease: a stable isotope study
Abstract

Aims: To determine whether chronic intestinal inflammation alters glutamine utilization, six 31 6 yr-old patients with Crohn's disease and an age-matched group of 6 healthy subjects received 7-h intravenous infusions of -[5,5,5-2H3]leucine, along with an infusion of -[1-13C]glutamine delivered intravenously for the first 3.5 h, and via a nasogastric tube for the subsequent 3.5 hrs. None of the patients was receiving any nutritional supplement or antiinflammatory drug. All were in remission (Crohn's disease activity index < 150) and in a near-normal nutritional status.

Methods: We used plasma 2H3-α-ketoisocaproate to determine leucine appearance rate (Ra), and plasma 13C-glutamine and breath 13CO2 to determine glutamine Ra and oxidation, respectively. The fraction of enteral glutamine undergoing uptake in the splanchnic bed was determined from the difference in plasma 13C-glutamine enrichments between the intravenous and nasogastric 13C-glutamine infusion periods.

Results: Neither leucine Ra, nor plasma glutamine concentration (52640 vs. 53050 μmol/l), glutamine Ra (36419 vs. 35524 μmol kg−1 h−1), or splanchnic glutamine uptake (615 vs. 652%) differed between groups. In both groups, glutamine oxidation rose when the glutamine tracer was supplied enterally, compared with the intravenous route (706 vs. 392% in patients; 692 vs. 381% in controls), but did not differ between groups.

Conclusion: When in remission, patients with Crohn's disease have normal rates of proteolysis, and glutamine production, utilization, oxidation, and splanchnic uptake. The data suggest there is no obvious requirement for glutamine in patients with quiescent Crohn's disease.
08-28-2007, 07:10 AM   #6
Brando
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
have you tried it old hat?
08-28-2007, 07:44 PM   #7
D Bergy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Thank you both for the information.

I hope this continues to work for you Brando. It is strange that some people have a good reaction to the Probiotics and others like myself, could tell no difference.

Maybe it is the combination of what you are taking that is producing the improvements. Who knows, but as long as it is working may as well stick with it until it doesn't.

Dan Bergman
08-29-2007, 12:47 AM   #8
old hat
 
Brando said:
have you tried it old hat?
Any apparent results (or lack of results) would be scientifically meaningless. An uncontrolled 'experiment' with a sample size of one person (me) tells me nothing about the actual effectiveness of this stuff.

Personal experience is actually a very poor method of evaluating any treatment. That includes my personal experience.
08-29-2007, 10:42 AM   #9
Brando
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
old hat said:
Any apparent results (or lack of results) would be scientifically meaningless. An uncontrolled 'experiment' with a sample size of one person (me) tells me nothing about the actual effectiveness of this stuff.

Personal experience is actually a very poor method of evaluating any treatment. That includes my personal experience.
not saying i don't agree with you because scientifically you are right. however, drugs like methotrexate and 6-mp are proven to work by studies and there are plenty of people everywhere including this forum that have taken them to no avail. one scientific study for glutamine doesn't convince me it isn't helpful especially considering it's role in the intestinal tract naturally. it is entirely possible that through a series of events, the intestines become so sick that they can have trouble even absorbing stuff like glutamine along with other things like vitamin b etc. which further deteriorates the condition.

i happened on this because i like to at least try to stay active and physically fit. i think it is vital to be active to keep this disease in check and glutamine is a product i take to help with healing skeletal muscles after muscle cell breakdown which plenty of studies have shown to help. why can't the same be true for intestinal smooth muscle especially since this particular amino acid is a huge source of fuel for it? i noticed my condition improve by taking this supplement and i thought i would share it with you guys and girls. if you don't want to take it you aren't going to hurt my feelings at all.

Last edited by Brando; 08-29-2007 at 11:01 AM.
08-30-2007, 01:11 AM   #10
old hat
 
It is hypothetically possible. Many things are hypothetically possible. Many promising avenues of research do not pan out. That is the nature of scientific inquiry. Is the scenario you decribe correct? Maybe but I can find no evidence supporting it or the use of Glutamine for people with IBD. Anecdotal evidence, whether it come for you, me or someone else,

Smooth muscle is different in composition than skeletal muscle and CD is primarily a problem of the intestinal mucosa and not a muscle problem.

You are feeling better? Great. You are feeling better because of taking this amino acid? Maybe and maybe not.
08-30-2007, 06:07 AM   #11
Brando
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
old hat said:

Smooth muscle is different in composition than skeletal muscle and CD is primarily a problem of the intestinal mucosa and not a muscle problem.
of course the composition is different. this still does not mean the needs for this particular amino acid have changed because of the type of muscle.

Brando said:

During catabolic states, the integrity of the intestinal mucosa may be compromised with consequent increased intestinal permeability and translocation of Gram-negative bacteria from the large intestine into the body. The demand for L-glutamine by the intestine, as well as by cells such as lymphocytes, appears to be much greater than that supplied by skeletal muscle, the major storage tissue for L-glutamine. L-glutamine is the preferred respiratory fuel for enterocytes, colonocytes and lymphocytes. Therefore, supplying supplemental L-glutamine under these conditions may do a number of things. For one, it may reverse the catabolic state by sparing skeletal muscle L-glutamine. It also may inhibit translocation of Gram-negative bacteria from the large intestine. L-glutamine helps maintain secretory IgA, which functions primarily by preventing the attachment of bacteria to mucosal cells.
there's your possibilities for why it helps with mucosal problems. and yes it is a muscle problem because most of the time all layers are inflammed not just the inner mucosal lining.

old hat said:
You are feeling better? Great. You are feeling better because of taking this amino acid? Maybe and maybe not.
are you suggesting that i am lying? it sounds awfully close and i do not appreciate it.
09-02-2007, 01:37 PM   #12
Kev
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Halifax, NS, Canada

My Support Groups:
Brando... Can I ask why you jump to the assumption that Old Hat is accusing you of lying? My take on his question is not that you are lying about improving, just that he is questioning the actual cause of your improvement. After all, your regimen is not a simple combo of a few items, but a complex one involving many and a specific combo of type, brand, etc.. and as for Old Hat, it's scientifically correct to say that anecdotal evidence is really not evidence at all.. in the 'scientific' community... BUT, in the 'real' community of us (and you are a member) living with this, finding something that works for us, even if it's just one of us, 'annecdotal, first hand evidence' is more often than not 'good' enuff' (at least till something better comes along). This damn disease is soooo unpredictable, so hinky, so individualistic at times it boggles the senses. I think the first and foremost rule (OK, of thumb) is finding what works for 'you'... (as in each of us individually). questioning it as in a healthy exchange between members as to what works for each of us is one thing, but to 'question' it on the basis of pros Vs cons of scientific enquiry is another. I have a regimen that was working for me, and I freely offered that up to those on here who were asking that, but to take my 'regimen' and present it up to a 'scientific' community and debate it's merits or weaknesses... hey, no way, I have enuff grief on my hands already. We aren't doing clinical research here.
we are simply sharing our stories. Having said that, I only close my so called 'open mind' on these exchanges WHEN I see someone on this board proferring a 'cure' or 'miracle treatment' w/o disclaiming that they aren't medically trained or qualified to make those statements considering that not all of the visitors to this site ARE adults.. Esp. those that do so solely for remuneration of some type or other. figure the 'grown ups' on here are old enuff (hopefully wise enuff) to look after themselves, whereas some may be of impressionable ages where they may source some of the OTC remedies off of a website w/o knowing the risks, advising either their doctors, parents or whatever. Ok, so I will step down from my soapbox.. Just felt that someone needed to step in and say.. 'what the hey'.. 'reality check time'.. or something along that line. Like, if I post my regimen, and swear by it (which I did when it was working), I would welcome any questions from those considering trying it too, and also those who, by the nature of their questions, raised questions in me that I had not considered, perhaps something that I overlooked, perhaps a better way of getting my results, or perhaps alerting me to a potential booby trap I had yet to see... Those are all good, legitimate exchanges. Asking me to present it as if it were a medical treatise up for review by JAMA or similar? Get real, OK?
C'mon. If my methods worked for me, congrats to me. If they didn't or don't for you, I'm sorry. I'll rebate the fee in full that you paid for taking my advice
OR, perhaps in the open exchange, between you, me or whoever, one of us will see WHAT it may have been that started working for you, or stopped for me, or so on, and so on. Isn't that one of the goals of these exchanges? The truth is that we can learn from one another, and this is a great opportunity. It is too valuable to be possibly compromised by getting in a 'whole' scientific debate process (downward spiral) every time you venture to share a 'method' EVEN if my method & results fly in the face of your methods & results, right?
__________________
KEV

Dx'd July, 2006
Meds: Flagyl, Cipro, Pred, AZA.. to no effect
Low Dose Naltrexone Nov 2007 - May 2014
Remicade June 17th, 2014
09-02-2007, 05:20 PM   #13
old hat
 
My education is as a biologist so I am also part of the scientific community in a way. I am also well aware of the pitfalls inherent in judging whether or not something works by personal esperience.
regressive fallacy
http://skepdic.com/regressive.html
post hoc fallacy
http://skepdic.com/posthoc.html
and more. Everyone (including me) is subject to them. Very intelligent people have been fooled by this sort of thing over millenia. It continues to happen today and it will continue to happen in the future. This isn't an ivory tower academic issue. It is very much a concrete, real world problem

Discussion here is about a chronic illness with potentially extensive comorbidity. Imo, it is a serious topic. Information here should be reviewed in a serious way including weighing the available scientific evidence whether it is positive or negative. People should have this information when they evaluate information here and I try to provide it as objectively as I can if the OP did not. I don't think people should just see glowing testimonials and sales pitches.

Scientific methods are not my methods. They are methods that have been developed by many people over a long period.

I don't doubt that Brando's condition improved or think he is lying. I am sure he is being honest. There is just no way for anyone to know what caused that improvement. Careful, clinical records of multiple patient outcomes provide some evidence but data from properly deisgned trials is the gold standard. This data does not support reccommending glutamine. It just doesn't.

I consider this a very important issue.
09-02-2007, 06:43 PM   #14
Kev
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Halifax, NS, Canada

My Support Groups:
I can't fault your logic, but (and this isn't based on any scientific data, as I have none to support it) I feel there is an all too real possibility or potential for people to stop posting, to not express their ideas, opinions, home remedies, etc "FREELY"out of fear of being met with a bombardment of 'pure' science. Science has it's place, scientific evidence it's merits, but this isn't a science community. We aren't scientists or doctors comparing case notes or studies. We are people who share a serious illness. That sharing, that disease gives us a first hand knowledge, a stake in this community, that those of the scientific or medical community will never have, will never experience in the first place. I agree that this disease is a serious topic. I know that first hand. I also know that trained experts in this disease, people of great experience and extensive practice, and who rely completely on scientific evidence, have been wrong in my diagnosis, treatment, follow up. And I'm not alone in this. I don't necessarily distrust scientific evidence, but I also don't surrender to it without reservation. The knowledge gained from scientific methodology is only as good as... well, as todays knowledge. Time and again we've witnessed yesterdays knowledge tossed to the curb with the acceptance of todays info which will only last till tomorrows breakthrough. All done very scientifically. I am not advocating tossing out the baby with the bathwater. Info garnered from scientific journals, medical websites, university studies, all have merit. I for one was eager to jump on the MAP studies... good people behind it, some good doctors, hospitals, universities involved, even duplication from other parts of the globe... If I had been asked to participate in clinical trials that were of some risk to me, or to break open my piggy bank to contribute funds, I would have... BASED in large part on the posting from the initial scientific trials/research. Would have been perfectly logical on my part, with science playing a big factor in my decision making process. Still wouldn't have helped.

I, for one, really respect the threads that you post old hat, and all of the info you bring to the table. But I maintain the individual right to accept or reject something taken from the scientific community w/o having to prove that 'my' reason for doing so falls in line with the rationale of the scientific community as a whole, or a person who occupies that community and this one as well. In short, science used to say that the wings of the common bumble bee were too small to lift the bee's body into flight... whereas the poor, illiterate bee, remaining oblivious to the scientific communities data, just continued to fly.
09-03-2007, 08:37 AM   #15
DarrylP_Ajax
 
I have been taking Glutamine long before i got Crohns (been supplementing with it for a little over two years) i can definitly say it helps in repairing fatigued muscle, but other then that i cant say it helped with controlling my crohns or anything.
09-26-2007, 10:15 PM   #16
D Bergy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
I was re reading some links saved and found this stuff concerning Glutamine and Glutathione.

(4) Glutamine is an important substrate for the maintenance of intestinal metabolism, structure and function. Patients and experimental animals that are fasted or fed only by a parenteral route develop intestinal villous atrophy, depletion of SIgA, and translocation of bacteria from the gut lumen to the systemic circulation. Feeding glutamine reverses all these abnormalities. Patients with intestinal mucosal injury secondary to chemotherapy or radiation benefit from glutamine supplementation with less villous atrophy, increased mucosal healing and decreased passage of endotoxin through the gut wall[140-143].

(5) Glutathione (GSH) is an important component of the anti-oxidant defense against free radical-induced tissue damage. Dietary glutathione is not well absorbed, so that considerable quantities may be found throughout the gut lumen following supplementation[144]. Hepatic GSH is a key substrate for reducing toxic oxygen metabolites and oxidized xenobiotics in the liver. Depletion of hepatic glutathione is a common occurence in Leaky Gut Syndromes contributing to liver dysfunction and liver necrosis among alcoholics and immune impairment in patients with AIDS. The most effective way to raise hepatic glutathione is to administer its dietary precursors, cysteine or methionine. Anti-oxidant supplementation for Leaky Gut Syndromes should therefore include both GSH and N-acetyl cysteine. Because protozoa are more sensitive to oxidant stress than are humans and because most anti-parasitic drugs and herbs work by oxidative mechanisms, high dose anti-oxidant supplementation should be witheld during the treatment of protozoan infection, especially during treatment with Artemisia. (6) Flavonoids are potent, phenolic anti-oxidants and enzyme inhibitors with varied effects depending on the tissues in which they act. Quercetin and related flavonoids inhibit the release of histamine and inflammatory mediators. Taken before eating, they may block allergic reactions which increase permeability. Catechins have been used in Europe to treat gastric ulcerations. The flavonoids in milk thistle (silymarin) and in dandelion root (taraxacum) protect the liver against reactive oxygen species[145].

Here is the link to the site. I think i may have posted it before, but not sure.

http://mdheal.org/leakygut.htm

Dan Bergman
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