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12-23-2007, 11:22 PM   #1
Sojourn
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New Theory on Crohn's

How Bacteria In Cows' Milk May Cause Crohn's Disease

ScienceDaily (Dec. 13, 2007) — Scientists at the University of Liverpool have found how a bacterium, known to cause illness in cattle, may cause Crohn's disease in humans.

Crohn's is a condition that affects one in 800 people in the UK and causes chronic intestinal inflammation, leading to pain, bleeding and diarrhoea.

The team found that a bacterium called Mycobacterium paratuberculosis releases a molecule that prevents a type of white blood cell from killing E.coli bacteria found in the body. E.coli is known to be present within Crohn’s disease tissue in increased numbers.

It is thought that the Mycobacteria make their way into the body’s system via cows’ milk and other dairy products. In cattle it can cause an illness called Johne's disease - a wasting, diarrhoeal condition. Until now, however, it has been unclear how this bacterium could trigger intestinal inflammation in humans.

Professor Jon Rhodes, from the University’s School of Clinical Sciences, explains: “Mycobacterium paratuberculosis has been found within Crohn’s disease tissue but there has been much controversy concerning its role in the disease. We have now shown that these Mycobacteria release a complex molecule containing a sugar, called mannose. This molecule prevents a type of white blood cells, called macrophages, from killing internalised E.Coli.”

Scientists have previously shown that people with Crohn’s disease have increased numbers of a ‘sticky’ type of E.coli and weakened ability to fight off intestinal bacteria. The suppressive effect of the Mycobacterial molecule on this type of white blood cell suggests it is a likely mechanism for weakening the body’s defence against the bacteria.

Professor Rhodes added: "We also found that this bacterium is a likely trigger for a circulating antibody protein (ASCA) that is found in about two thirds of patients with Crohn's disease, suggesting that these people may have been infected by the Mycobacterium."

The team is beginning clinical trials to assess whether an antibiotic combination can be used to target the bacteria contained in white blood cells as a possible treatment for Crohn’s disease.

The research was funded by Core and the Medical Research Council and is published in Gastroenterology.

Adapted from materials provided by University of Liverpool.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1210104002.htm
12-24-2007, 10:33 AM   #2
Kev
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Well, Merry Christmas and pass the eggnog.. Oh, on 2nd thought, skip that last request. Actually, I recall seeing this somewhere else, recently. A preliminary post or something. Think I recall saying the in again/out again MAP theory was in again

However, this latest take on it differs significantly with earlier theories on the old johnes/crohns connection.. in relation to the change in white cells, and how it may be at the root of the issue. Be interesting to see what this all leads to.
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12-24-2007, 04:50 PM   #3
drew_wymore
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It is interesting in theory. But before I was diagnosed I never ever drank any type of dairy, including ice cream etc. So unless there is a latent effect that sits waiting until some trigger releases it..
12-25-2007, 04:15 PM   #4
D Bergy
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There are several suspect bacteria involved in Crohn's and the milk connection keeps coming up every now and then.

I tried to kill various specific bacteria using different methods. When treating for E-Coli the treatment made me ill for about 24 hours. I did it twice with the same result. I do not know if it was the treatment method or the destruction of the E-coli that caused the reaction. It is interesting that it caused this reaction since in a normal person it does not cause any reaction. I will have to take a closer look at this E-Coli connection as my frequency treatments are not known to cause the reaction I had. Just the sheer coincidence of it all is quite interesting.

I had no luck targeting individual bacteria, probably for a multitude of reasons. I decided that there was no practical way I could get rid of any particular bacteria, and I did not even know for sure which one to get rid of.

Then I decided that if I could kill all of the bacteria in my intestinal tract, I might get somewhere. Some time later I found out about Chlorine Dioxide and how it is used for disinfecting water. It is unstable, and breaks down into water and salt in a couple of hours, but it will kill any bacteria that is of a higher pH than the body's normal bacteria in the mean time.

It worked well for me, but it certainly is an unproven remedy for Crohn's. No one else has ever used it for this disease to my knowledge. There is also the danger of some unforeseen problem it could cause to someone with bad intestinal damage.

If anyone does decide to experiment with this, I would use it in conjunction with a probiotic to fill the intestinal tract with good bacteria to prevent the re-establishment of the bad bacteria you have removed.

This is not for anyone uncomfortable with an experimental treatment. This is only for those that can accept the risk involved in any experimental treatment. It is a practical way of ridding bad bacteria from the intestinal tract.

Dan Bergman

Last edited by D Bergy; 12-26-2007 at 01:49 AM.
12-26-2007, 03:15 AM   #5
Sojourn
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Interesting Dbergy. So did you begin to improve after this experimental treatment?

If this "new" theory is true, I still don't understand why Crohn's is more prevelant in developed countries like the U.K. and the U.S. I guess the milk is different but it didn't say anything about pasteurization.
12-26-2007, 04:03 AM   #6
D Bergy
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No, I did not notice any improvement, but after the second time I quit because I was not sure that it was not the treatment itself causing an adverse reaction. It should not have been able to cause an adverse reaction and others duplicated my frequency treatment and had no reaction.

It is certainly possible that it is just a huge coincidence, but the reaction is so unusual that it makes me wonder if E-Coli could release toxins when killed like a few other bacteria do. No way of knowing what the cause was. I think I will try the same experiment again, now that I am fairly sure I no longer have this bacteria.

I posted my results of this experiment a while ago here, but I only get errors when trying to access the old thread.

Dan Bergman
12-26-2007, 08:08 AM   #7
Mazen
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Is this bacteria also found in goat's milk? I seem to tolerate goat's yoghurt better then cow's yoghurt!!!
12-26-2007, 09:59 AM   #8
Kev
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Hey, are we talking bacteria here, or virus? I thought one of the issues in the old MAP scenario was they were dealing with a T cell virus, that hid inside good cells (like perhaps in the case of the damaged white cells they are currently talking).. It would be akin to chicken pox or even HIV... Thought the proposed treatment in the old MAP scenario involved ongoing treatment for a period of three years to try to rout out all of these bad virii. Or am I hallucinating again?

I mean, not to rain on anyone's parade, but altho identifying the agent which is the culprit would be a major breakthrough, it wouldn't lead to immediate cure. I mean, they know what causes AID's (HIV), but that can't get rid of it.. and they have known about it for over 20 years now. Neither would a homemade cure..
12-26-2007, 02:59 PM   #9
D Bergy
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Mycobacterium paratuberculosis is the Milk bacteria that they are referring to. In a nutshell they are saying it prevents the white blood cells from killing a pathogenic strain of E-Coli, another bacteria, in the intestinal tract.

I do not think there are any viruses involved with the Milk bacteria. But Chicken Pox is a viral condition.

This would explain why antibiotic treatments for ulcers seem to help Crohn's disease. They just were accidentally killing the E-coli and or the Mycobacterium.

It also would explain that sickening sweet smell of the stool. Mannose, a form of sugar, being produced by the Mycobacterium paratuberculosis, may be what that is all about. Speculation of course.

Interestingly, D-Mannose, another sugar, is often used to dislodge sticky bacteria in the urinary tract. I looked at a study in which they concluded that some pathogenic forms E-coli are not subject to this effect from D-mannose. Rules out that approach. I never tried it, but thought about it.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...?artid=1833778

If the latest theory holds true, it would not be all that difficult to kill off the E-coli. I am pretty sure I killed most it off with the Chlorine Dioxide. It is used specifically to kill E-coli in other applications, so it is not as if it is not capable of doing so. Getting all of it, may take some time. The Mycobacterium is so difficult to culture, I am guessing it can be killed also without any extraordinary methods.

AIDS is a whole different animal in which absolutely no AIDS pathogen has ever been seen under a microscope. It is even debated whether such a virus even exists. Viruses are usually much more difficult to get rid of.

I agree that it would not lead to an "official cure" anytime soon since years of wrangling would have to take place first. Just as it did with the discovery of H-Pylori as the cause of ulcers. Lots of money and stake holders involved with disease management. They do not give up their territory easily. It is not all about science.

A homemade treatment is already available that would work for the bacteria in question. At least the E-coli.

It is easily enough to test by several means, if a doctor would prescribe the correct antibiotics. Or, by doing what I did.

Dan Bergman
12-27-2007, 03:06 AM   #10
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HIV does exist as a physical entity, a professor of mine lead the team which put the first vaccine into humans a few years ago. AIDS however is simply a syndrome cause by the breakdown of the immune system by HIV. The problem in treating HIV is that all strains known to date (excluding the results of my professor's clinical trials) have been post-infections trains. These strains are highly mutated from the strains of a recently transmitted strain as they discovered in analyzing their clinical trial results. The reason vaccines thus far have been ineffective most likely lies in the fact the antibodies being formed simply do not properly match with the surface proteins being targeted on HIV when transmission occurs. Instead they are targeting the surface proteins of an HIV that has already been highly mutated(the reason for this is unknown but there are a number of odd disulfide bonds in these proteins that do not exist in the known structures of HIV). Future efforts will most likely involve analyzing these newly found results to hopefully produce an antibody that targets the proper protein structure to allow blocking of transmission. Sort of off-topic but I thought it would be good to share since it came up.

As for the bacteria, it is most likely one of many causes that lead to autoimmune disorders and might ultimately lead to a cure or more effective treatment for some people. It really depends on what the trigger for a person's crohns disease was and what the underlying cause is. Until we understand autoimmune disorders, we can only hypothesize ways to treat them and examine every single possibility in the quest to find a cure. I salute your willingness to try something new and while it might not have worked for you, it could work for someone else if they are brave enough to try.
12-27-2007, 03:28 AM   #11
D Bergy
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I am not an expert on HIV, but from what I have heard, the only thing indicating a pathogen is an antibody. I believe someone actually has offerd to pay a sum of money to anyone that can produce a viable virus. Mostly because they are disputing that there is one.

Thanks for the explanation. I never have delved into that disease.

While the frequency treatments did not work for E-coli, possibly because it reproduces too fast, they have worked for H-Pylori and Lyme disease, so I was not too disappointed.

The Chlorine Dioxide worked very well for getting rid of symptoms. I did not have a great deal of symptoms to resolve but what I had were gone after use. This also is working on Lyme disease better than anything else we have used.

I have used many different treatment methods and most have little or no effect.
But when a good one is found, it usually can be applied to several different diseases. Not officially though.

Dan Bergman
12-27-2007, 03:53 AM   #12
saidinstouch
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Yeah there are definitely sequenced HIV proteins directly from the virus itself. You learn something new everyday, I sure know I learned a lot about HIV in taking my class on biotechnology and I learned a lot about common misconceptions(I.E. HIV rarely causes super-infection...in other words, once you have HIV you rarely contract a second strain from another person due to some innate protection garnered by contracting HIV and that sex workers in Africa actually develop immunity to the disease so long as they are active in the industry and within a short time of quitting the industry develop HIV). There is a professor at UC Berkley that believes AIDS is not caused by HIV, but most experts in the field think he is full of hogwash though some of his evidence can be somewhat compelling when taken out of context.

The funny thing with science is the biggest breakthroughs often come through serendipity, I mean look at penicillin? Probably one of the most important discoveries in medical history happened by complete chance. As long as people keep trying new ideas, a very small percentage are bound to make a breakthrough that changes the face of medicine at least for some people.

I wish our science was advanced another 10-20 years because in that time we will learn so much more than we did in the last 10-20 years and will likely have answers to many of the questions we currently are asking. I know I am looking forward to playing a roll in the future of pharmaceutical development barring any more crohns related setbacks.
12-27-2007, 04:56 AM   #13
Mazen
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Active Manuka Honey is said to destroy bacteria in the stomach. Dr. Peter Molan of the Waikato University, New Zealand found in his over 20 years of manuka honey research, that Active Manuka Honey seems to naturally destroy staph aureus, streptococcus as well as h. pylori, the bacteria responsible for stomach ulcers!

So maybe it can help also with Crohn's. I'll try to order some and see if it helps

http://www.manukahoneyusa.com/h-pylori.htm
01-26-2008, 02:20 AM   #14
killerzoey
 
So...basically this is the MAP (Mycobacterium avium paratuberculosis) theory but with a different bacteria?

I think it's fascinating that they are finding that certain bacteria exist in Crohn's sufferers in greater percentages than in the general population. But what if there are many, many of these bacteria yet undiscovered, and their presence isn't causally correlated with Crohn's? Maybe if our immune response is askew then we allow ourselves to be colonized by all kinds of things that normal people do not, and their presence isn't necessarily a cause of the illness but rather one of many secondary effects. And maybe the reason anti-MAP therapy has seemed to work short-term is it annihilates the baddies in a scatter-shot fashion temporarily but then it returns because the immune system is still awry. Just a thought.

But if the mechanism they describe is the cause of some people's Crohn's, it will be fantastic if they can figure out how to reverse it. I'm starting to see that there are probably many triggers for Crohn's and the scientists have their work cut out for them figuring out how they all work and how to treat each type.

Last edited by killerzoey; 01-26-2008 at 02:26 AM.
01-26-2008, 10:33 AM   #15
Kev
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Yeah, it's confusing, and I'm the first to admit the deeper I try to delve into it, the more confused I get (like, yeah, that's a big surprise). One of the things I found really confusing was some of the latest reading I did on MAP. My understanding was that it's a bacteria (the extent of my knowledge consisting of the concept that bacteria were huge in comparison to virus/virii, and relatively easy to target via an anti-biotic - that's pretty much it in a nutshell). However, some of the info I gleaned from various reading that despite looking for the prescence of MAP bacteria in huge numbers in IBD patients, scientists were finding it hard to find them at all... leading some in a recent study to place this theory off the front burner. Then, I read where a theory advanced that in patients who MAP bacteria were theorized (perhaps even really discovered) to exist, what 'they' (the researchers) were discovering were inherant changes to the structure of white cells... tying in to an earlier theory that perhaps MAP was hiding/entering white cell structure (altho i'd assumed bacteria were huge in comparison to white cells - perhaps explaining my confusion re bacteria AND virii).. Now, the rest of this dribble is my paraphrasing, taken from my memory, (not too dependable to begin with) and could (probably) based on my TOTAL misunderstanding of the whole process/correlation/inter-connection of MAP. If you allow for that (and please, anyone who has read these same articles who has a better memory or take on those articles, jump right in N straighten me out) my 'synopsis' of it is that somehow the introduction of MAP bacteria has an ability to change the structure/function of the white cells... causing them to both leave the bad guys/fight the good guys AND to cause more inflamation in our bodies than they should. Think one of the premises of this was caused by them finding both affected AND unaffected white cells in their research in any of the typical subjects. That led them to theorize that the white cell situation was not global (stemming from a mis wiring situation in our brains telling "normal" white cells to go on a rampage) but either from the 'limited' production of 'bad' white cells (along with good ones) OR somehow/someway MAP (or something associated with it) was causing/creating/changing good whites cells into bad. I think that's what they were saying/theorizing.. or I could be hallucinating all of this. Thing of it is, EVEN if I got this dead bang on accurate, the scientists MAY be full of ...... (well, you know, that stuff commonly associated with crohn's). I am delighted to read of the latest theories in the struggle against this disease, but as time goes by, and a theory is lauded, then derided, then praised again, I sometimes picture in my head the IBD researchers as in the fable about those 3 blind men and the elephant... and in this case, seems like those 3 scientists are named Curly, Larry AND Moe! (theres one for the young ones to ponder).
02-06-2008, 11:45 PM   #16
sh!+_stains
 
Hi guys. I am 24 and diagnosed when I was 15, and I live in Ottawa Canada. I am currently on a quad antibiotic treatment (clofazimine, clarithromycin, rifabutin and ethambutol). I have taken these four for two years now and had great success at the start and then a small flare around the 18 month mark (October '07) and have since gotten better again. For some the antimicrobial antibiotics can be pretty much a cure, for others like myself they can be the best treatment option used so far but still fall short of a cure, and for others they may not work very well. Still, regardless of mixed results with antimicrobial antibiotics, there is much scientific evidence with regard to the MAP theory and I believe in it and believe that much more research funding needs to be directed towards conclusively settling the hypothesis.

If it interests you to read more on the MAP theory, there is a good website at www.crohnscanada.org , which has many resources such as scientific papers, newspaper articles, radio interviews, videos and etc. Also at the site is a link to a new video that was posted on Youtube recently, I'll paste the links here for convenience:
Trailer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmHcN_qeJZk

Part 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pYuf...eature=related

Part 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRt5s...eature=related

Part 3:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUg1h...eature=related

Part 4:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XScG...eature=related

Part 5:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TBd-...eature=related

Well, nice to say hi to everyone and I hope some of the stuff I have posted hasn't been posted already. If you would like some articles I could email them directly to you.

-David
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