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Crohn's Disease Forum » General IBD Discussion » Interested in these bacterias/parasites - Cryptosporidium, Cyclospora, Coccidia


01-31-2008, 05:08 AM   #1
Brando
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Interested in these bacterias/parasites - Cryptosporidium, Cyclospora, Coccidia

Cryptosporidium - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptosporidium

Cyclospora - http://www.medicinenet.com/script/ma...articlekey=570
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclospora_cayetanensis

Coccidia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coccidiosis

just some quick references to these parasites. was taking a look at this website written by a doctor about sodium chlorite / chlorine dioxide therapy.

http://bioredox.mysite.com/CLOXhtml/CLOXilus.htm

i guess my question is how easy is it to culture these parasites in a lab and is it a "usual process" to culture for these in particular when you have gastrointestinal disorders? also, how easily are they killed when treated with antifungal/antibacterial medicines (i got the levaquin/flagyl regimen in the hospital for Crohn's problems) ?

just curious really if there could be some resistances developing and it possibly being an infectious agent that Crohn's/Colitis people are harboring. could be one of those easily overlooked things.

Last edited by Brando; 01-31-2008 at 05:24 AM.
01-31-2008, 07:34 PM   #2
D Bergy
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I never thought about resistant bacteria being a factor, but I think it is something that should be explored. We get so many antibiotics nowadays even in the food chain that this is an intriguing theory.

I do not think any cultures are checked for in routine Crohn's diagnosis. I could be wrong, but I have never heard of it. Possibly some things may be looked for in a biopsy. It is another good question you have raised.

I guess the sheer number of possible bacteria frustrated my efforts to kill any particular species. I am very suspicious of the "sticky E-Coli" variant, that is supposedly associated with the MAP bacteria. Just because of my own experience of getting ill twice, while treating for that particular bacteria. While others that tried to duplicate my illness using the same method had no reaction. If they would have had Crohn's possibly they would have.

Cryptosporidium, is not an unusual lab test. I know I have heard of this testing before. I do not mean it is something checked for as a routine type test, but that it is not particularly difficult test in general. I think it is a fecal test. They also test lake water in some areas around here for this.

Most of these parasitic type infections take care of themselves. But as I had those small tapeworms three years after exposure to fleas just proves that is not always the case.

Good thinking. Now you have given me something else to ponder.

Dan
02-01-2008, 05:12 PM   #3
Brando
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my reasoning here comes from 2 things. there are alot of people with crohn's who while in a bad flare of course get put on antibiotics and it tends to help them out. i'm just thinking here that it could possibly be a multiple infection, although subclinical, it could be that there are a few different bacterias infecting at the same time and the body is doing the only thing it knows to do and send a ton of WBC to the site which then causes inflammation. although it is keeping it under control it isn't totally getting rid of everything. and the antibiotics help but dont get rid of everything either. could it possibly be because the antibiotics are just not causing enough damage or because of resistances? who knows.

another thing is what researchers are now finding out to be true with HIV. although most of the current drugs seem to keep it at bay in the blood, they have found that HIV is present in massive numbers in the intestinal tract. this is mostly because the drugs cannot penetrate into the intestinal tract to fight the virus there and would explain why they can't irradicate the virus completely. what if the same is true with crohn's? I'm not saying we all have HIV but what i am saying is that maybe all the antibiotics we take dont penetrate well enough to irradicate everything. most people with Crohn's have mucosal problems too meaning the bacterias can penetrate into layers of the smooth muscle they aren't supposed to be. this could also explain why it is harder to culture some of these bacterias because they are deeper in the tissues than they are supposed to be.

this could also be why people with Chronic Lyme Disease get relief from antiobiotics but dont get entirely better or cured. possibly the bacteria replicate too fast to be completely erradicated or maybe the treatments dont work as well as pharma companies would like us to believe.

this is why the chlorine dioxide therapy looks promising for alot of infections. it can easily penetrate into all tissues and it zaps the bacterias and viruses as well. this also could be why people have success with DMSO and melatonin because it can penetrate easily as well and is relieving the stresses of the toxins being let off. also probiotics helping alot of people suggest that they are also able to get passed the mucosal lining and are killing these bacteria as well and repopulating where the bad used to be if they are indeed deeper in the tissues.

this is really just a bunch of guessing but from my point of view seems reasonable. i could be completely wrong about alot of things here as i really dont know enough about intestinal bacterias and parasites and how they live. even so i'm not willing to accept that crohn's is not caused by an infectious agent. there is too much evidence suggesting that it is just based on antibiotics and them helping the disease.

Last edited by Brando; 02-01-2008 at 05:20 PM.
02-01-2008, 05:35 PM   #4
Brando
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also D Bergy I'm curious to know if you've had any Crohn's related issues after taking the chlorine dioxide supplement? Also interested in knowing if your wife is doing better now with her Lyme Disease after taking it or is she showing signs of it coming back? I've been trying to keep up with your posts on healthsalon as well.
02-01-2008, 08:21 PM   #5
D Bergy
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I had no symptoms after I got done with the first round of Chlorine Dioxide. I took it for about three weeks working up to a max dose of 15 drops. But, six weeks after I stopped I had some real small indications it was still there. Like the slight sensation in the Illeum, and stool that was occasionally a 8 instead of solid 9 or 10.

I went back on it for a short while and was 100% by the time my LDN arrived. I started taking just the LDN alone for the first month. While I had no problems as far as BM was concerned, I still could, on occasion feel the sensation in the Illeum. Not pain, but you should not feel anything if you are 100%.

Then I decided that it is reasonable to expect that the LDN will help out my immune system, but probably not reasonable to expect it to regulate it perfectly. So I decided to use the Chlorine Dioxide every week to clean up any remaining pathogenic bacteria. I have not had any sensations other than sometimes when I eat a lot, I can feel food moving trough the surgical area. I am assuming this is scar tissue that I am feeling because it is infrequent.

I am actually healthier at this point than I was before my Crohn's symptoms. But, I am eating much better, avoiding stress and generally taking better care of myself. I do credit most of my improvement to the Chlorine Dioxide. The LDN should help keep me where I am at. I am planning on taking the Chlorine Dioxide every week, for the rest of my life. I really do not feel it is harmful the way I am using it. I would not want to use it every day for the rest of my life. Just because it is not something that you would consume normally.

While my diet is healthier, I eat whatever I want, with the exception of Onions and Milk. Other than that, nothing bothers me. Nuts, Fiber, does not phase me at all. I have no restrictions other than the Onions and Milk.

My wife is through the rough part of huge bacterial kill off and misery from it. She now feels better than she has in years. If we stopped today, it would come back in a few weeks, as it is such a tough bacteria to get rid of. She will have to use it for about 18 months daily to totally kill it all. There is an English doctor that has been doing just this using Chlorine Dioxide. I recently found out about how he is using it for Lyme, Fibromyalgia, and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome.

So if it sounds like a nutty thing to take, I am in good company. Actually, if you look at how it works, it is the perfect solution for cleaning out the intestinal tract.
Not only that, it is carried in your blood stream to take care of any other pathogens you may not even be aware you have.

I am convinced by both of our results that this stuff does what is claimed for the most part. I have not heard of one serious side effect other than Cancer patients having bad reactions from so much Cancer being killed too fast.

The standard warning still applies. It is experimental and there is always the possibility of an unforeseen side effect or unique bad experience.

A little common sense will keep most people out of trouble.

Dan
02-02-2008, 02:05 AM   #6
drew_wymore
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Is the Chlorine treatment available OTC? I would love to give it a shot and see what happens.
02-02-2008, 02:49 AM   #7
Brando
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www.miraclemineral.org if you are interested.

the author wrote 2 ebooks. the first is free and tells about how he disvoered it and what it does etc. while the second ebook costs $9.95 and he explains how to make the sodium chlorite formula yourself. a 5 ounce bottle is like a full years supply worth. there are some people that sell it online for like $20 a bottle but considering if it works, that is a full years supply for $20. check for "MMS" on ebay or in google. just make sure you get it from someone reputable.. i think www.healthsalon.org has some links to people who sell it.

Last edited by Brando; 02-02-2008 at 02:52 AM.
02-02-2008, 07:52 AM   #8
drew_wymore
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Thanks Brando. A very interesting read. I am going to give it a shot and see what happens. It doesn't seem like from D Bergy's posts that its toxic or anything dangerous.
02-02-2008, 03:08 PM   #9
Brando
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well it definetly is one of those do it at your own risk type things because there have been no official studies done with it. alot of people will go ahead and say it is bad just because of this but there are a few things that it is already used for (used in cattle, horses, chicken etc. for the same purpose we are talking about; used to sanitize raw meat; used as a water disinfectant). the only difference is that what is going on if you want to take it the way the author suggests is the original formula is sodium chlorite activated by citric acid. when it activates, it sustains a reaction for 2-3 hours and constantly produces chlorine dioxide once ingested. you can read about how it works on bacterias in the link i posted above as it can explain it alot better than i can. the author suggests using it along with paradophilus to get an even better effect. it's definetly worth reading the ebook.
02-02-2008, 07:02 PM   #10
D Bergy
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If you try it, use small doses and work your way up. Especially because we do have Crohn's. It will produce the big D if you have bad bacteria in your intestinal tract. It will stop when it is gone in a normal scenario. It quit for me also, but given that many normally have D, it may be hard to distinguish what the cause is. I was pretty stable when I started

You may have to use it for a week, then quit for a week, and keep repeating until you have no D and then use it steady for awhile. In another words, you are going to have to put some thought into how you use it due to our unique circumstances.

I have used experimental treatments for a few years now, and stay away from risky ones, or potentially harmful ones. But always err on the side of caution when using something new. Even my frequency treatments produced pain in my intestinal tract that has never happened to anyone else, ever. It just shows that on an individual basis, anything is possible. This is true for any treatment, but do not forget to watch for anything that does not jive with what should be happening.

Read up on it well before use. You need to know what reactions it normally produces so you know what is going on.

All I can say is it kills bacteria and viruses(not as easily though) and parasites from my own experience. I have had no adverse reactions or negative effects from it.

Dan
02-03-2008, 09:25 AM   #11
D Bergy
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I have added one more piece to my Crohn's puzzle. It appears that the sensation in my surgical area is not caused by the scar tissue itself. This morning I had a cup of coffee and got the same sensation. Certainly a liquid should not cause a reaction from friction or bulk since there is no resistance going through. I know coffee has aggravated my Crohn's when my symptoms were bad. I was hoping this was only because everything was inflamed at the time. This seems to be something that I react to no matter what my condition is. Although, I react much less at this point in time.

Neither the LDN or the MMS has changed this aspect of my Crohn's. If I reacted to some food such as Onions, Milk or Coffee before, it has not changed as a result of my treatment. So I am adding it as another part of my treatment, that food reacted to in the past must always be avoided regardless of treatment.

I would like to keep drinking coffee, because I work shift work and rely on the caffeine to keep me awake. But reality is I should not drink it at all.

In my case, I think there is a total of three known elements to this disease.

1. Improper Immune response. This should be more or less corrected by the LDN.

2. Pathogenic bacteria in the intestinal tract that may be somewhat reduced by the LDN. Any remaining bacteria should be eliminated by the MMS.

3. Negative reactions to certain foods, possibly allergies. Hard not to notice the connection to Celiac Disease in this respect. Gluten should be a suspect in the cases of other people with Crohn's. I have no reaction to Gluten, but others may.

Avoidance of these foods is my only option at this point. I am going to investigate why this happens in general. I have not found a solid cause for this reaction before, but I will still try to find an answer. Hard to believe this also is not tied to an improper immune response. If it is, then the LDN does not correct this aspect of immune function. Or, at least is has not in my case.

No wonder we have such a hard time with this disease. It is not as simple as it appears. There seems to be several aspects to it. I still believe, the whole of the disease is related to improper Immune response. LDN apparently only addresses part of this improper response, but not all of it. At least that is what I make of it based on what I know today.

Of course, I am only going by my experience, and what I have learned from other sources. I do not write anything in stone, and this should be taken in that context.

Dan
02-03-2008, 03:15 PM   #12
Kev
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I'm going to jump in with both feet (and watch me immediately put one foot in my mouth, then make room for the second... but, after all, I could use the protein)..

I think, no... I actually 'know', that when I saw those photos of the inside of some patients colon who had been on LDN for 12 weeks, and compared them to the ones taken of his/her original colon condition, I immediately computed it to mean that 12 weeks of this drug would give me a healthy colon once again. I am coming up on 10 weeks; and I know my colon has improved tremendously. So much so, and so quickly, that I have accerbated my internal hemmerhoids to such an extent that they are posing me problems... something my prior bowel condition was not affecting. However, despite a healthy surface appearance, I strongly believe it simply looks better than it 'really' is. Sheer wild assed guess on my part. I think the healing process takes time... the total healing process that is. Babies are born with pristine GI tracts, yet suffer many digestive issues that require slow, gradual changes to their diets. Anyone who has ever tasted baby food, or changed an infants diaper, will often wonder what is going on in there. There may be a long term 'celiac' like syndrome at play even after there is no outward (inward) sign of inflammation, scarring, other 'blips'.

I would hope, that given years, MAYBE, just maybe, a normal diet is possible. I would also anticipate that regardless of that; tempting fate with foodstuffs of a type known to cause issues for people with normal, healthy digestive tracts is just asking for trouble. I know healthy people who have to watch out for certain foods. It may be a natural aspect of various foods; caffeine, berries, fruits and veggies, etc., that some things just aren't meant to be overindulged in, or indulged in at all. Hey, I wouldn't exactly love it, but I could come to terms with that deal. The wear and tear of time is also a factor. Despite our relative biological ages, WE have to face the fact that the 'real' age of parts of our anatomies that have, as part of our disease, been aged beyond their years, is something we have to accept, face and deal with. I consider myself a mid 50's individual with a colon of a 70 something. Now, if I behave myself, follow a sound, sensible (for me) diet, take my meds... maybe, just maybe, I can slow down the process in my GI tract to some future point where that age gap narrows. Maybe even throw the statistical 'life expectancy' charts for folks my age with IBD out of whack, least for a while. Don't like dwelling on the prospect of packing it all in by age 66. It can be a pretty bleak prospect... w/o going into the whole wish fulfillment id. I would hope that anyone who is currently on a med regimen that is working for them to stop and think about my long winded ramble. Just cause a med is coping with or masking your 'big' symptoms, I don't think it's wise to play russian roulette with your GI tract. i've never heard of anyone undergoing a successful GI tract transplant.

OK, that's my 2 cents worth (or is that two feets worth.. Hmm, they taste bad)
__________________
KEV

Dx'd July, 2006
Meds: Flagyl, Cipro, Pred, AZA.. to no effect
Low Dose Naltrexone Nov 2007 - May 2014
Remicade June 17th, 2014

Last edited by Kev; 02-03-2008 at 03:25 PM.
02-03-2008, 04:02 PM   #13
D Bergy
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Join Date: Apr 2007
I have read the same thing as you have regarding 6 to 12 months of LDN for it to work. It is hard to remember that when you are actually taking it. I have to constantly remind myself of that even though I am symptom free except for the occasional sensation here or there.

My biggest fear is having to go in for another resection. I only have so many feet of guts, and once gone, there is no chance of being completely normal after that. That is why I am striking coffee off of my list. This is a tough one for me, as it is very ingrained in my daily routine. I do not drink nearly as much as I used to, but I am going to have to give it up altogether.

I guess the fear of more surgery drives my search for a solution. I think I have found it, but I do not want to get sloppy in my habits and bring on a flare just because I am being stupid with my diet.

I think you may be right that at some point in the distant future we can maybe get away with eating a forbidden food. Actually, in my case, I should not even care since my restricted list is quite short. It does take time to heal years worth of damage. I know this in my head, but it helps to have someone remind me of that. I think I have even posted to that effect before.

I am glad you are feeling better Kev. I hope you update your LDN thread soon. In a weird way, I get more confidence in my own results when you are improving also. Herd mentality, or what! I also hope others that are not getting good results using other methods can use LDN and get some improvement also.

Dan
02-03-2008, 06:12 PM   #14
Brando
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just stumbled across this site:

http://www.mdheal.org/parasites.htm

seems to shed some light on a few things we have been talking about. could explain why a variety of medicines including the LDN work and seem to help. it would appear that parasites like giardia etc. wont necessarily cause you problems but can still be part of your flora. this would explain why it doesn't kill you when you have colitis/Crohn's and why antiobiotics/antifungals seem to help. it would also explain why immunosuppression would help by cutting down the immune response. parasites are still there but the immune system is being regulated. could also explain why some people have great success with some therapies at first and then after a while they stop working. these parasites aren't kept in check well enough and they begin to damage the tract even more.

on the other hand it would help to explain why LDN, probiotics, and other things that would upregulate the immune system would help as well. they would help destroy some of these parasites ridding them of your intestinal wall where they are causing problems. it would just take a long time to heal which is why it would take LDN 6-12 months to work right.

Last edited by Brando; 02-03-2008 at 06:14 PM.
02-04-2008, 01:58 PM   #15
D Bergy
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You boiled it all down quite nicely. It sounds like a reasonable assumption. That is more or less how I look at it.

If it is correct then treating the source of the problem, such as the immune system and getting rid of bad bacteria and parasites should provide lasting remission. No reason why it should not work forever. "he says thinking no reason I am aware of".

That is what I have been shooting for and why. We think along similar lines on this disease. I hope the line of thinking is mostly correct.

I like the doctor in the link. He seems to really know his stuff. I reread his articles every once in a while.

Dan
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