Here is an interesting site discussing how bacteria is likely responsible for many diseases, including Crohn's.
http://bacteriality.com/2007/08/15/l-forms/
Dan
http://bacteriality.com/2007/08/15/l-forms/
Dan
-
Welcome to Crohn's Forum, a support group for people with all forms of IBD. While this community is not a substitute for doctor's advice and we cannot treat or diagnose, we find being able to communicate with others who have IBD is invaluable as we navigate our struggles and celebrate our successes. We invite you to join us.
Bacteria and Crohn's and other disease
- Thread starter D Bergy
- Start date
From the article:
L-form bacteria cause inflammation and painful symptoms by taking control of a protein called Nuclear Factor Kappa B. They are able to activate proteins that increase the activity of Nuclear Factor Kappa B, which subsequently moves to the nucleus or center of the cell. Once there, it turns on a variety of genes that cause the release of inflammatory cytokines, proteins that generate pain and or fatigue. These cytokines include interferon gamma and TNF alpha.
Thus, an inflammatory response is correlated with diseases caused by L-from bacteria. “An inflammatory immune response—one of the body’s primary means to protect against infection—defines multiple established infectious causes of chronic diseases, including some cancers, argues Relman. “Inflammation also drives many chronic conditions that are still classified as (noninfectious) autoimmune or immune-mediated (e.g., systemic lupus erythematosus, rheumatoid arthritis, Crohn disease) Both [the innate and adaptive immune systems] play critical roles in the pathogenesis of these inflammatory syndromes. Therefore, inflammation is a clear potential link between infectious agents and chronic diseases.
...There is also little incentive for scientists to study the L-form. Since the bacteria can be killed by simple low-dose antibiotic therapy, drug companies have little interest in investing money into related research. Researchers studying the L-form often find themselves with very little grant money but must still work long, tedious hours in the lab.
As Domingue states, “It is generally agreed among scientists that L-form bacteria are extraordinarily intriguing, interesting tools for biological study, yet the most neglected area of research has been on the role of these organisms in disease, particularly in host-pathogen interactions.”
Again, lack of funding from drug companies for innovative studies. Sounds promising though since someone is working on it.
L-form bacteria cause inflammation and painful symptoms by taking control of a protein called Nuclear Factor Kappa B. They are able to activate proteins that increase the activity of Nuclear Factor Kappa B, which subsequently moves to the nucleus or center of the cell. Once there, it turns on a variety of genes that cause the release of inflammatory cytokines, proteins that generate pain and or fatigue. These cytokines include interferon gamma and TNF alpha.
Thus, an inflammatory response is correlated with diseases caused by L-from bacteria. “An inflammatory immune response—one of the body’s primary means to protect against infection—defines multiple established infectious causes of chronic diseases, including some cancers, argues Relman. “Inflammation also drives many chronic conditions that are still classified as (noninfectious) autoimmune or immune-mediated (e.g., systemic lupus erythematosus, rheumatoid arthritis, Crohn disease) Both [the innate and adaptive immune systems] play critical roles in the pathogenesis of these inflammatory syndromes. Therefore, inflammation is a clear potential link between infectious agents and chronic diseases.
...There is also little incentive for scientists to study the L-form. Since the bacteria can be killed by simple low-dose antibiotic therapy, drug companies have little interest in investing money into related research. Researchers studying the L-form often find themselves with very little grant money but must still work long, tedious hours in the lab.
As Domingue states, “It is generally agreed among scientists that L-form bacteria are extraordinarily intriguing, interesting tools for biological study, yet the most neglected area of research has been on the role of these organisms in disease, particularly in host-pathogen interactions.”
Again, lack of funding from drug companies for innovative studies. Sounds promising though since someone is working on it.
Kind of makes me wonder where all the research money does go. Here is an important link to many diseases, two that are in my family, Lyme and Crohns. yet very little money available to study it more. I understand the drug companies are not going to do it. It would cost them money and may result in eliminating their higher cost symptom treating drugs.
It does not explain where all of the money goes from other entities, not tied to the drug companies. Or maybe all of them are directly of indirectly under their control.
I really have no idea how the research works, I just know that a cure is rarely, if ever found in this manner.
It is interesting that Lyme is sometimes treated with low dose antibiotics with good results. There does not seem to be a comparable Crohn's treatment, although there are likely similar L-form bacteria producing the same inflammatory response.
Dan
It does not explain where all of the money goes from other entities, not tied to the drug companies. Or maybe all of them are directly of indirectly under their control.
I really have no idea how the research works, I just know that a cure is rarely, if ever found in this manner.
It is interesting that Lyme is sometimes treated with low dose antibiotics with good results. There does not seem to be a comparable Crohn's treatment, although there are likely similar L-form bacteria producing the same inflammatory response.
Dan
Usually the Marshall protocol is used in Lyme disease which has sporadic results as you stated. Lyme is more complicated because it often involves co-infections that go undiagnosed, plus the fact that the Lyme bacteria is so difficult to kill after you have had it for a longer time. There also is the battle between the medical community in which one side says there is no such thing as Chronic Lyme and the other more enlightened doctors(in my opinion) that recognize and treat with long term antibiotics. In reality, there are very few people that have used the Marshall Protocol compared to most any other treatment protocol.
I suspect that Chlorine Dioxide would work against most all bacteria in the L-form, but it would take a few months to get all of it. Chlorine Dioxide has the property of being able to penetrate the slime that is used as a protective barrier in many forms of bacteria, at least it does in other applications. When applied to Lyme disease, I think it likely does not work as well against the Cyst form. I am basing this on my own observations of how long it is taking to kill all of my wifes Lyme bacteria. That is probably not an issue with other bacteria, as I do not think most can revert to this form.
So I guess nothing is known for sure, but I am of the opinion that given enough time, all acidic bacteria should fall to Chlorine Dioxide. Bacteria simply do not have much defense against oxidation by a electron scavenger.
Dan
I suspect that Chlorine Dioxide would work against most all bacteria in the L-form, but it would take a few months to get all of it. Chlorine Dioxide has the property of being able to penetrate the slime that is used as a protective barrier in many forms of bacteria, at least it does in other applications. When applied to Lyme disease, I think it likely does not work as well against the Cyst form. I am basing this on my own observations of how long it is taking to kill all of my wifes Lyme bacteria. That is probably not an issue with other bacteria, as I do not think most can revert to this form.
So I guess nothing is known for sure, but I am of the opinion that given enough time, all acidic bacteria should fall to Chlorine Dioxide. Bacteria simply do not have much defense against oxidation by a electron scavenger.
Dan
well what i'm wondering with chlorine dioxide is if it penetrates into cell walls or if it just freely floats in the bloodstream. L-form bacteria are known to live inside of macrophages and neutrophils (possibly basophils and lymphocytes as well?) so i'm wondering if the chlorine dioxide will actually penetrate into the cell to kill these bacteria here as well. i have a feeling it will considering the chlorine dioxide is an oxidizer and freely bonds to red blood cells but whether or not it goes into immune cells is what i wonder about. if so it would still work great and get rid of the root of the problem.
i have a feeling it will take a farely long time to rid the body of the cyst form of lyme because of the bacteria's life cycle and replication process. it would replicate so much bacteria at one time that it would take alot of chlorine dioxide to kill it completely over a long period of time.
i have a feeling it will take a farely long time to rid the body of the cyst form of lyme because of the bacteria's life cycle and replication process. it would replicate so much bacteria at one time that it would take alot of chlorine dioxide to kill it completely over a long period of time.
I could not find the answer to whether it would penetrate WBC or not. But I did find out that WBC last about 13 to 20 days and then they are destroyed by the Lymphatic system. I would think that once destroyed, anything in them would either be destroyed also, or free floating for a period of time, which would make it vulnerable to the Chlorine Dioxide.
So, if you use it regularly for a longer period of time, the regeneration and destruction of the WBC should provide a way to rid themselves of any L-form or any other form of bacteria that could reside in them.
That is the hypothesis. Of course there could be other factors not accounted for.
I think it would work that way, more or less.
I have noticed that the Chlorine Dioxide has a limited potential in what it can kill in one dose. What I mean is it only can kill x amount of bacteria at a time. My wife first had bad back pain when starting out. It took a while to clear that out. Then it moves to out to farther areas in the body. It was her shoulders and fingers next. Now it only affects her ankles. The interesting part is that the ankle swelling and soreness was her first symptom of the disease. I read in a few different places that symptoms of many diseases occur in a certain order, and when you are resolving the disease, the symptoms leave in the reverse order in which they came. I really was skeptical of this orderly progression of symptoms. I really can't be too skeptical any more as my wifes illness and regression of symptoms has followed that exact reverse order.
Is that the strangest thing, or what?
Dan
So, if you use it regularly for a longer period of time, the regeneration and destruction of the WBC should provide a way to rid themselves of any L-form or any other form of bacteria that could reside in them.
That is the hypothesis. Of course there could be other factors not accounted for.
I think it would work that way, more or less.
I have noticed that the Chlorine Dioxide has a limited potential in what it can kill in one dose. What I mean is it only can kill x amount of bacteria at a time. My wife first had bad back pain when starting out. It took a while to clear that out. Then it moves to out to farther areas in the body. It was her shoulders and fingers next. Now it only affects her ankles. The interesting part is that the ankle swelling and soreness was her first symptom of the disease. I read in a few different places that symptoms of many diseases occur in a certain order, and when you are resolving the disease, the symptoms leave in the reverse order in which they came. I really was skeptical of this orderly progression of symptoms. I really can't be too skeptical any more as my wifes illness and regression of symptoms has followed that exact reverse order.
Is that the strangest thing, or what?
Dan
that is definetly strange but i'm glad she is showing improvement. i can't imagine what it is like to have chronic lyme but i tihnk i can come close with the Crohn's. at any rate, lasting improvement is a very good sign and i hope she continues to get better. perhaps the chlorine dioxide is passing through into cells and ridding them of the lyme bacteria afterall.
with the WBC and L-form thing there is some interesting ways that the bacterias work inside the cell. not only does it feed off of proteins that in turn cause the inflammation response (specifically TNF-alpha which is what remicade and humira latch on to and get rid of to help people with Crohn's) it also can make the cell delay apoptosis which is cell death. ironically, this is what happens in cancer as well.. could there be a link? at any rate, depending on whether or not the body is fighting infection or not macrophages usually live about as long as you say and maybe a little longer unless they are killing stuff. i think i remember reading in anatomy books that they can even live for a year or so under certain conditions but i might be wrong. the problem i forsee is that the L-form bacteria might be infecting the baby cells before they mature. this is getting really deep and this is all hypothetical but still whatever.. monocytes form into macrophages and if they are getting infected it could pose problems. i do agree with you, however, that when the cells die the bacterias will have to enter the blood stream or lymphatic system and this is where chlorine dioxide could do some electron ganking. at the very least, it would give the body more stores of hypochloric acid which could also help in naturally fighting these bacterias and any other infection that could arise.
i truly wish pharma companies would study chlorine dioxide more in depth but i doubt it will ever happen... at least not anytime soon. it could prove monumental in disease control especially if it can freely float in the blood stream, lymphatic system, and penetrate cell walls to kill L-form as well and really have no adverse side effects. at least we have knowledge of things like this and this forum to discuss it so we can take control of our own health. i bought some online and should get it delivered soon. i will probably make a log of its effects like the humira and LDN logs.
with the WBC and L-form thing there is some interesting ways that the bacterias work inside the cell. not only does it feed off of proteins that in turn cause the inflammation response (specifically TNF-alpha which is what remicade and humira latch on to and get rid of to help people with Crohn's) it also can make the cell delay apoptosis which is cell death. ironically, this is what happens in cancer as well.. could there be a link? at any rate, depending on whether or not the body is fighting infection or not macrophages usually live about as long as you say and maybe a little longer unless they are killing stuff. i think i remember reading in anatomy books that they can even live for a year or so under certain conditions but i might be wrong. the problem i forsee is that the L-form bacteria might be infecting the baby cells before they mature. this is getting really deep and this is all hypothetical but still whatever.. monocytes form into macrophages and if they are getting infected it could pose problems. i do agree with you, however, that when the cells die the bacterias will have to enter the blood stream or lymphatic system and this is where chlorine dioxide could do some electron ganking. at the very least, it would give the body more stores of hypochloric acid which could also help in naturally fighting these bacterias and any other infection that could arise.
i truly wish pharma companies would study chlorine dioxide more in depth but i doubt it will ever happen... at least not anytime soon. it could prove monumental in disease control especially if it can freely float in the blood stream, lymphatic system, and penetrate cell walls to kill L-form as well and really have no adverse side effects. at least we have knowledge of things like this and this forum to discuss it so we can take control of our own health. i bought some online and should get it delivered soon. i will probably make a log of its effects like the humira and LDN logs.
I like the log idea. When using something experimental, it is a good idea to keep close track of everything for a future reference. It also helps others to know what to expect if they try it.
My only advice is to use it at minimum dose to begin with and slowly ramp up. It can sneak up on you and kill more bacteria than you want in the beginning. After you have used it for several weeks, this does not pose a problem.
The problem is none of us know ahead of time how much of this harmful bacteria we have in us. the sicker you are, the more the reaction. A perfectly healthy person will not react at all to it.
They are selling 10,000 bottles a month, and I still have not heard of any harmful side effects. I hope there are none to report.
If you do get in trouble simply take some juice with added vitamin C and it neutralizes the Chlorine Dioxide.
Good Luck.
Dan
My only advice is to use it at minimum dose to begin with and slowly ramp up. It can sneak up on you and kill more bacteria than you want in the beginning. After you have used it for several weeks, this does not pose a problem.
The problem is none of us know ahead of time how much of this harmful bacteria we have in us. the sicker you are, the more the reaction. A perfectly healthy person will not react at all to it.
They are selling 10,000 bottles a month, and I still have not heard of any harmful side effects. I hope there are none to report.
If you do get in trouble simply take some juice with added vitamin C and it neutralizes the Chlorine Dioxide.
Good Luck.
Dan