A diet for effective muscle and weight gain please!

a diet for effective muscle and weight gain please!

hi,

i posted the thread 'a question for body builders' recently and had an amazing response. despite being in the middle of a UC flare-up, i've managed to continue my weight training and my flare-up is slowly calming down, which is great news.

although i've managed to gain some weight during this period, i'm seemingly stuck at 71.4 kilos, and i don't know if it's the UC making it difficult for me to put weight on, or if i'm not eating enough, or both.

i got some great advice from benson in the last thread, but i'm wondering why i'm still not gaining weight (clearly i'm not following it properly!). when i've eaten more my belly just seems to bloat a bit before dying down again after a few days.

so what would be the perfect diet? what kind of meals contain enough protein and carbs and fat and when should i eat them? how many protein shakes should i be drinking? is too much bad/ineffective?

all my hard work at the gym isn't paying off and just adds to the sinking feeling this frustrating disease sometimes gives me - i hope someone out there knows what i mean! :ymad:

thanks

Umm I know what does work.. but I don't think it is the correct or a good way of doing it. I had a case of hyperthyroidism.. I was 79lbs and 3 months pregnant. So I did everything that doctors suggest to lose weight, expect the opposite. Like:

Chew your food fast and try to eat a lot before your stomach has time to scream at you it is full

Always eat a big meal RIGHT before going to bed

Eat large meals a few times a day instead of smaller meals many times a day (though probably not a good idea with crohns)

Don't fill up your stomach with liquids prior or during a meal.... drink more inbetween meals

For every extra helping of meat / protein add an extra helping of carbs


... Again I don't think I would recommend doing this but I do know for a fact it did keep me at a healthy good weight. Unfortuantely my Crohns makes me gain weight (the disease does not the meds) and I can't lose it.

I have to leave right now but I will post tonight when I get home some things. But real quick if you are flaring you may not be getting the nutrients you need from your food.

Well Lardossen, I will post more tomorrow in depth (sorry, bad day today)...but if you have UC, then since it's isolated to your colon, you should be getting most of your nutrients, because the colon is primarily for reabsorption of fluids that were secreted during digestion. So, your small intestine is healthy I assume (due to your dx of UC), and that's where calories are mainly absorbed with the macronutrients...Therefore it could be a classic case of you being conditioned to a certain "fullness" level...meaning your body and mind are accustomed to getting full at a certain level, as you start to force just a bit more food in, this problem can be minimized, as you slowly become used to more food, and don't feel as bloated. It happens the other way too, quite often, when people who were used to eating a lot and being obese go on a strict diet of hypo-caloric eating, they often get full easier and quicker than they used to, and have a hard time downing the same quantity they used to. This happened to several people I helped drop fat from.

Protein shakes are great, but you can go overboard, if you replace too much food with them, you're no longer "supplementing", which is what they are for. You're replacing...as long as you're getting most of your protein from real food, you're good. When I'm at full steam with my routine, I was going for about 200 grams protein a day, and 40 was from shakes (2 20 gram shakes/day), but I made sure to also vary my remaining sources, lean beef, eggs (mostly whites), white chicken, lean dairy (I am fine with dairy in remission), and lots of fish.

Another idea of the top of my head may be that you are using your "weight" to gauge progress....and yes, provided your scale is accurate you may be static at the same kilos (I'm an American I feel like I'm talking about cocaine when I say that...lol)...therefore you could actually be gaining muscle, which is what you want to gain, and losing some fat or even water (or gaining water in the muscles, especially if you supplement with creatine), so your gains could be in disguise as a plateau...try measuring your arms, a good marker...if you continue to stay at the same 71.4 but your arms grow, and you are working out hard, most likely (but you'll have to be the final judge) you're putting on muscle and dropping something else. I'll return, but hopefully this triggers some thoughts for you.

Sorry about the earlier post I was leaving right as I was typing so I forgot that you had UC.

Okay here are some things to start with:
Eat several times a day. If you are getting bloated by the amount you are eating then you are eating too much at one time. Eat five small meals a day instead of three. Eat a high protein, high carb diet so you have the fuel you need to workout. Have a protein shake after each workout. Are you lactose intolerant. If you are not then message me and I will give you a website that has a good protein shake that is pretty easy on the intestines(I don't want to spam the forum so anyone who wants any info or to check them out please pm me).

Protein shake do not need to be taken before workout and you will get the most benefit out of them 30 minutes after a workout.

With each meal have a protein. Eat meat with each meal.

Remember to take a day of rest. I think I'm missing some stuff but I'm really tired. Hopefully Benson comes in to fill the rest of the info.

Good luck and I'm glad to hear you are doing better. Also, if you provide us with some meals that you do, your workout routine, and stuff like that we could help you a little more.

Here's my .02 cents. Eat more 5-6 meals/day. Protein intake should be around 1-1.5 g/lbs lean body mass. Post workout, eat a protein/carb meal. (Protien shakes work well here because it's quick and easy). Use something like fitday to track the # of calories you are consuming. If you want to gain muscle you have to be eating above maintenence. There are several good fitness sites that give you more specific info. Check out jp fitness or elitefts. Check out books by Alan Aragon and Lyle Mcdonald. Hope this gives you a starting point.

To add, the answer to WHAT you should be eating, in this case, greatly depends on what your UC will allow/tolerate. Great protein sources in general often come from meat sources, they typically contain a greater spectrum of amino acids, and while you can be vegan/non-meat-eating and build great muscle (Mike Mahler is a very muscular veggie), it takes more planning and strategy to get each and every amino acid, as many have unique benefits/functions. For meats, lean sources are best generally, but in your case, having issues with adding mass, you could virtually go on a free for all (and only lighten up on it if you see TOO quick of gains, as if you gain too fast, it's likely a lot of fat unless your getting some, ahem, illegal assistance)...but eat any and all meat sources and plant sources....nuts, seeds, whole grains...all have decent protein counts...

Carbs would follow the same premise, as much as you like...in your case for any of the three macronutrients (protein, carbs, fats) that should apply, the only 2 issues I could see you needing to address with some cutback is if either your disease gets out of control too much, or if you actually start gaining too much fat (which is likely to happen anyways, the amount will depend on a few things: the quality of your large food intake, your genetics, and the quality/intensity of your workout routine)...

Fats, try to keep to mono and poly, and if possible, try to keep lower the saturated fats (and if possible still, NO trans fats), but I've seen studies showing fat intake of the non-trans fat type (all others) being linked to testosterone levels, and of course the more of that stuff you have the better. Fats are where your calories are...only 4 calories per carb and protein gram, and 9 for each gram of fat...so, you have 125% MORE calories extra from fat grams, so that's where you can pack them in.

Like I initially said, try to measure your bodyfat with some calipers and/or take some measurements of some body parts, like your upper arm or thigh and shoulders (horizontally at widest portion for shoulders, and at the same/widest portion for the thighs and arms, and measure the same way for future comparisons).

Also like Jeff said post your routine and perhaps some food/meal samples, or a sample of what you eat in a day. The bloating you speak of, is it UC related and painful, or does it seem it's from your eating habits?

guys - thanks for the replies, again, really helpful and appreciated.
sorry for not replying for so long.
jeff, benson - particular thanks.

benson, re your question: the bloating is a weird thing - it's not painful and seems to occur randomly. i think it must be food related and depends on how much/what i eat, but i haven't been able to figure out a pattern yet. somtimes i can eat a big meal and my stomach looks normal, other times something smaller and it bloats hideously! a friend once said that maybe that's just my body shape, but that would be a killer as all the hard work i've put in to look in shape (i'm seeing a nice difference) is wasted as i walk around with a pot belly

my routine: mon, wed & sat.
not sure of exact muscle groups....
2 x Back
2 x Chest
Biceps & Triceps
Shoulders x 3 (different areas)
Upper Legs x 2
Calves
Lower Back & Stomach

all 3 reps of 15 (the last rep to failure, not much past 15), toyed with lower reps at higher weights before but not doind it at the moment as my instructor said 3 x 15.

sometimes i divide this workout (12 machines plus stomach and lower back) into two programs and alternate them, recently i'm doing them all in one.

food:

breakfast - porridge with banana (good for my UC i've found)
or sometimes 2 eggs and bread

lunch - sandwiches with ham/salami and tomatoes etc.
or what i didn't eat for breakfast from the above two.
or soup and bread
or guacamole (good source of the right fats i think) with bread

snacks - probiotic yoghurts, protein/weight gainer shakes with a bit of creatine
(to the recommended amount),
bananas/apples

dinner - pasta dishes, not always with meat tho
fish with cous cous and salad
stir-fries
chilli

i often drink a protein/weight gainer shake before i go to bed as i was advised once. but i'm thinking does this get a chance to digest properly? or does it sit as sugar carbs in my stomach and therefore not give me the kind of weight i want??

i'm open to feedback and advice on anything, as ever...thanks.

How much time a week could you workout? If you could workout 6 days a week it would be better because you could put more into each workout. The seventh day would be your rest day. This way you do more exercises with each muscle group.

Day 1:
Back

Biceps

Day 2:
Chest

Shoulders

Triceps

You can workout legs everyday but give yourseld two rest days instead. For legs I would recommend pistils and lots of jumping.

When you are done a workout then you can have a protein shake but wait a half hour after working out to drink it because that is when you will see the most effectiveness. Don't drink them before going to bed because it doesn't do much for you then.

thanks jeff - i'll try working out 6 days a week for a couple of weeks and see how it goes. i teach english here in germany and it's kinda quiet at the moment so i have enough time to train most days

not sure about finding those shakes you recommended over here tho, i'll try the internet!

I'd agree a little more frequency is best, but you may want to go for a 4 day routine, like the one I optimized (this isn't as detailed, but retains the basic structure from the one I utilized just before this recent flare a year ago, it's good to start with and modify as you go using it's principles):

Day 1: Upper push + biceps (bench press, military press/shoulders, + biceps)
Day 2: Lower push + traps (squats, leg extensions, and leg presses + traps)
Day 3: off
Day 4: Upper Pull + triceps (weighted pullups/pull downs, rows (cable, machine and/or barbell) + triceps)
Day 5: Lower Pull + abs (lower body "pull" ie: leg curls, stiff legged deadlifts, standard deadlifts + ab work)
Day 6: off
Day 7: off (or I did just cardio here, but if you're trying to put on weight, cardio will just burn up valuable calories)

I don't believe that pistols or jumping would put on mass, they'll work on the fast twitch fibers in your legs that will aid with jumping movements, but are actually more likely to burn calories (mimicking jumping rope) than to damage the fibers enough to promote growth

I did periodic cardio 3 days a week with all this while trying to cut fat, but if I was trying to put on muscle solely, I'd just do cardio maybe twice a month, just for some mix up and heart health....this routine above is a modified "push/pull" routine, doing push movements and then pull movements broken up, due to their similarity in muscle involvment....you isolate the tri's shoulders and chest on upper push...you isolate the back (lots of muscles there), biceps, and forearms (which are used in other days too) mainly in upper pull....you isolate the quads, glutes, and calves (somewhat isolated) with lower push....you isolate the hams, glutes (again some), and lower back (again some of it) and a little of the calves again on lower pull....the modifications I made were primarily the abs, traps, bi's and tri's work that you see added to each of the 4 days...the benefit of this was I could work the bi's VERY hard on the day when the tri's were getting hit from all the benching and pressing with the upper body, the bi's had nothing going on that day, so they could be hit hard, AND again on the day they were doing the back's exercises, so they got hit nicely twice a week (smaller muscles heal faster, the smaller the quicker, and also the smaller the volume of work that's needed to work them too)...same thing applies with the tri's, I'd work them HARD on the day the back was doing a lot with all the pulls and rows and all, they were fairly fresh then...and the abs could be worked out almost any other day if you need an extra day, but I'd do weighted crunches with them. If you want to hit the abs the best, you need to add some weight, such as a 25 lb weight plate or so to start, to each situp, because heavy resistance is what makes 'em pop the most and become more rigid (after you lose the fat that's on top of them of course, but that's another goal/regimen)...the traps are the muscles that connect from the neck down to the tops of your shoulders, and are best worked with shrugs (pretend you're touching your shoulders to your ears as best you can, that's working the traps, with heavy weights at your side of course)...and they are worked nicely from deadlifts, so I'd do them on the day I worked the lower push instead (deadlifts are lower pull)...so everything was hit nicely at a good rhythm.

The reason I suggest this routine is it's great for adding mass or cutting, and hits things a decent way. Again, called a push/pull routine, it has some drawbacks that can be patched up depending on individual needs/goals, such as a lagging bodypart, but when you're needing to add mass, this works very well. Each day, I'd do around a total of 10 sets for each main movement, but that's closer to an advanced caliber...you should start off maybe a little lower, but if you can handle more that's fine. I did reps ranging from 3 to 15 or so, depending on bodypart, set, and a few other factors.

Why did your instructor say to do reps of 15? I just ask because that's a tad high, especially on large muscles, like the chest, quads and back. Mass ranges are closer to 8 or so, maybe 10 for many occasions, and strength is closer to 3-8 or so. Abs and whatnot are good for more, upwards into the 20's, but with weights on you it's okay to settle for 10 to 20 if you're failing. The goal you have will govern the reps you do, the lower are more for strength, the higher are more for endurance, and in the middle is for size goals (with some strength mixed to prevent plateaus)...if you're doing 15 reps, you have to use a low enough weight that you're making it all the way to 15 reps in the first place, thus it's kind of presumed it's not heavy enough to really use all the muscle fibers. The heavier something is, the more fibers your CNS (Central Nervous System) calls into play. Working more fibers = damaging more fibers = growing more fibers...

Btw, failure is a great tool, just don't overuse it, if you go to failure on too many for too many workouts you'll eventually "over-reach" and then "overtrain" and you could get sick, or injured, and lose much ground.

On the bloating, sounds like it could be the disease, but without pain I don't know. Whatever it's from, even if it's your natural design, adding mass and size to your frame will mask it well.

On your diet, I'd say you need a bit more protein, try shooting for 1 gram/lb of bodyweight, or about 2 grams per kg, see if that helps.....other than that the food choices are great...for more on diet I just helped out a young British bloke in a thread on our forum here:

http://www.crohnsforum.com/showthread.php?t=3528


As for calorie level, it's hard to guage your level because of serving size, but there's some info in the thread I linked above, which I believe follows your issue quite well. As for the protein shake, "within twenty to thirty minutes after finishing your workout" is what I've always preached, but if Jeff's schooling has lent him some newer studies/info that states not until 30 minutes (would you mind sharing Jeff? ) for maximum efficiency then ??? I'm not sure, I've always drank the shake when I got home from the gym, typically 20 minutes after or so, and have always read/heard don't go past 30 minutes if possible, you need that shake ASAP....on the shake before bed, you're fine to drink anything before bed, it won't sit in there, and if it's a weight gainer shake, and has some healthy fats in it, it'll be even better to slow digestion. You're trying to gain muscle, so food before bed is fine, you're going 8 hours without anything after that still, so you don't want to get "catabolic" and have your muscles digest themselves for nutrition. That's another thing to keep in mind when you're awake, never go too long without food, for the catabolic effects I just mentioned. Anyways, a regular protein shake will digest fast (don't bombard it with sugar whatever you make unless it's a postworkout shake, when the sugar actually is "healthy" at that point to prevent catabolism) so you best not have one prior to sleeping, it'll be gone too quickly, you want some protein/food that'll last a while. This is where the classic cottage cheese or something slow digesting like that (the 'casein' in cottage cheese is a VERY slow digesting protein source) will be great. You may not necessarily gain fat from the excess sugars if you have them just before bed, but you'll increase the chance of it, try to center your calories in the first 2/3's of the day, but if you didn't get them in, don't worry, you're trying to put on muscle/weight, so it's not too bad to have a heavy meal late in the day, as long as you don't start gaining unwanted fat.

You're right, guacamole (avacodos, actually) have the good fats mostly, so that's correct.

I know that's a lot, sorry, this is all very detailed info for me, I kind of live it (well, lived it, want to live it again, almost became a personal trainer or a sports nutritionist)...


btw Lardossen, the whole time I've been typing this, I've been listening to a German song I stumbled across that reminds me of my workout sessions because of its style, what's this guy saying? ---- http://youtube.com/watch?v=Vfi5C0wMPLw

Figured this might help, I haven't seen it in a long time, but stumbled upon again:

http://www.exrx.net/Lists/Directory.html

Benson what I have learned about waiting about 30 minutes is that during a workout the digestive system takes a backseat to the rest of the body, especially during hard training sessions, and so you want to give your intestines time to awaken, for lack of better terms. It takes about 20 to 30 minutes to do so. That is what I have been taught on the subject. I'm moving again right now so I can't find anything on my stance but that's what I was taught.

That makes enough sense I guess, I knew that digestion was put on hold during a workout, but had supposed that it woke up soon enough that your food that WAS sitting in there would be waiting for it to "awaken" after the 20 min. or whatever lapsed. But what you said makes sense.

That's also the reason why should not drink cold drinks, water or gatorade, during workouts and after because it slows digestion. You want to wake it with some warm water and keep drinking until you pee after a workout. Then have some gatorade and a protein shake.

Sorry to butt in guys, but I've been looking for a good protein shake supplement (I'm wanting to keep it lactose-free), and came across Herbalife's Formula 1 nutritional shake mix. It's supposed to replace a meal to help lose weight, but will supposedly have the opposite effect if taken in conjunction with a meal. Anyways, the reason it caught my eye is because it has 20g of protein per serving. Do you guys recommend this powder? Here's a link to the product.

http://www.herbalife.com/catalog/catalog.jsp?cid=792835&pid=1152988361610

There's no "butting in" in a forum especially when you're on topic. IMO, it's decent, but are you thinking of substituting it all day for all meals, or in addition to meals? Sounds like in addition. It's mostly from soy protein it appears, with some vegetable protein (peas have a few grams and they've got some pea protein in the ingredient list)....depending on your gender, you should be cautious with soy proteins because the phytoestrogens can biologically mimic the effect of extra circulating estrogen, and when estrogen goes up, testosterone will inversely go down in the body...so it has to be consumed sparingly mainly in males. Otherwise it appears nutritious and balanced, healthy fats and low sugar...once a day wouldn't be too bad (takes 2 scoops it says for 1 serving of 20 grams) in addition to real food. It's also costly, looks to be over 3 dollars per serving, which isn't too bad if it's replacing meals, but as a supplement that can get costly in addition to food costs.

For lactose free protein I get Isopure because it's moderately priced for what you get, and high in whey protein, good with vitamins/minerals. I'm not intollerant to lactose normally, but for some reason during flares it worsens symptoms, and then I can drink tons of milk without trouble when I'm in remission. If I never had problems with lactose at all, I'd go for some cheaper protein like Optimum Nutritions stuff.

Benson, thanks for the great info. I'm a guy, BTW, but it's probably hard to tell from my screen name. :smile: I was definetely going to use it as an addition to meals, no substiting here. I've lost about 25lbs during the past few months due to being in/out of the hospital and having the runs, so I'd like to put some muscle back on. I already purchased a couple of containers of the product since my doc said it was ok to take, (50% off too!) so I guess I'll just take it once a day or so like you suggested so I won't start growing breasts, lol!

I was never lactose intollerant before either, but apparently it does cause symptoms to worsen during flares. So, where can I get Isopure locally?

Most places I've seen Isopure locally it was quite costly, but Vitamin Shoppe, GNC (both costly stores in general). Half off your stuff makes it a better deal.

Yeah, with your user name, I figured males and females can get "krabs". :shifty-t:

LOL, it's just a nickname that stuck with me through highschool I guess. My name is Sebastian, like the crab in the disney movie the little mermaid, hence the nickname.

Anyways, back on topic: I ended up making a trip to the local GNC and bought a canister there of the dutch chocolate Isopure (pretty tasty stuff BTW), plus I bought their gold card for a 20% discount every first 7 days of each month. Not a bad deal, especially since it's supposed to be 55 servings per canister compared to the 12 for the Forumla 1. Thanks again for the recommendation!