Share Facebook
Crohn's Disease Forum » General IBD Discussion » Remission & immune system


07-10-2012, 06:19 AM   #1
Cat-a-Tonic
Super Moderator
 
Cat-a-Tonic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Madison, Wisconsin

My Support Groups:
Remission & immune system

Hi all, I'm just curious if anyone experiences the same thing. I'm in remission and most of the time my guts are fine. They get a little grumpy if I eat the wrong thing, get too stressed, etc. But for the most part I've been having nice solid poos and few if any symptoms for awhile. Then yesterday I started coming down with a cold, and as soon as I felt it come on, my guts started getting worse. I've been experiencing looser stools, painful cramping, urgency, gas, nausea, and just a general unsettled feeling in my lower abdomen. I can recall experiencing something similar the last time I had a cold (which was back in October '11).

Anyone else in remission and your guts also respond badly to getting a cold? I'm assuming it must have something to do with IBD being (presumably) an auto-immune illness and the fact that my immune system turned on to fight this cold, although I don't really know. This does seem to be a pattern when I get a cold, though. Anyone else experience something similar?
07-10-2012, 06:37 AM   #2
kiny
Senior Member
 
kiny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Crohn isn't an auto-immune disease, the theory that makes most sense atm is that it's a an immune deficiency where a pathogen takes advantage of a weakened immune system, the body isn't able to deal with the pathogen and can't remove it, macrophages try to kill the pathogen and the macrophages relsease an excess of TNF-alpha and other cytokine which causes the inflammation, the inflammation becomes excessive and goes out of control.

People with crohn have a weakened immune response to bacteria, that's been shown many times by injecting a harmless bacteria into them.

The idea that crohn is autoimmune has no proof, you will find 0 documents that can prove our own body is reacting against us for no reason or as some sites still say for whatever reason "attacks our own intestine", our own body isn't attacking our intestine, there's just an excessive reaction to some pathogen and the secondary effect is the inflammation being released from macrophages in response to the pathogen.

The people who claimed it was autoimmune and were proven wrong have consistently been moving their goalposts, redefining what autoimmune meant at first, and they now include "environmental factors", which means nothing.

The only connection to your cold and crohn you could say is that you're probably more likely to get a cold as a crohn's patient, since you have a weakened immune response.

There are other reasons that might explain crohn, which I guess you could call "environmental", but the autoimmune theory idea is over, it's not that. Crohn is not an autoimmune disease, no matter how many times some people keep saying it without any proof, it doesn't make it any more true. Antibiotics are working for crohn, the autoimmune theory is over.

Last edited by kiny; 07-10-2012 at 07:11 AM.
07-10-2012, 10:21 AM   #3
JDTM
OMG LDN BBQ
 
JDTM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Providence, Rhode Island

My Support Groups:
Hi Cat, hope you start to feel better soon pal. I haven't had Crohn's long enough to comment on this, as I haven't really been sick yet (beyond having Crohn's and related symptoms, I mean).

Anyways, sorry to hijack the thread, but I want to quickly reply to kiny. You might be proven correct one day, and on a personal level, I'm currently taking antibiotics and I think it's making a difference, so I agree that bacteria certainly have something to do with IBD. Maybe a lot, in fact. But the fact that Crohn's disease is so closely linked to other autoimmune disorders, and the fact that there is a demonstrable genetic component as well leads me to believe that it's not that simple. Antibiotics also don't work for everyone.

I appreciate your contributions to the board, and I've been reading up on some of the studies you've brought to the forum, and I'm truly thankful for them. That said, poor Cat is feeling sick and just looking for some advice -- this might not be the right place to have a debate on etiology.
__________________
Hi, I'm Jesse!

Current meds:
Lialda (4.8g)
fluoxetine (40mg)
naltrexone (4.5mg)

Previous meds:
Dexilant (too pricey!), Xifaxan (short course), budesonide (tapered off), Pentasa (had to switch in January 2016), omeprazole

Supplements:
multivitamin
2000IU vitamin D-3

Diagnosis:
gastritis & duodenal ulcers, August 2011
Mild Crohn's in terminal ileum, February 2012
5cm of narrowing w/ no signs of active inflammation, May 2014
07-10-2012, 11:09 AM   #4
Rebecca85
Senior Member
 
Rebecca85's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Nottingham, UK
I always had the opposite effect- when I was 'almost' in remission, a cold or similar would give me a few days of being able to eat just about anything I wanted with no consequences. Now I am pregnant, the same has happened. I put it down to my immune system being 'distracted' by something else so lessening the auto-inflammatory response.
__________________
Crohn's in the terminal ileum, dxed Jun '10

125mg azathioprine
4g Pentasa
07-10-2012, 01:04 PM   #5
Cat-a-Tonic
Super Moderator
 
Cat-a-Tonic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Madison, Wisconsin

My Support Groups:
Rebecca, that's interesting. I was ill for a year before my GI put me on Entocort and I eventually got into remission - during that year I was so ill with IBD (still not officially diagnosed, but have been told by 2 docs unofficially that it's IBD), I didn't have one single cold nor virus. Not sure if that's just coincidence or if my immune system was just so revved up that nothing else could get past it, or what. Now in remission I am well most of the time except apparently when something else activates my immune system.

Jesse, thank you. I am feeling somewhat better although I haven't eaten much today, just some toast & tea so far. I'm not feeling super terrible (I did call in sick to work so that I could rest most of the day and then hopefully this won't get worse) but it's really annoying to have to deal with cold symptoms (throat & sinuses right now) and also gut symptoms at the same time. As the old saying goes, when it rains it pours!
07-10-2012, 01:13 PM   #6
Manzyb
Forum Monitor
 
Manzyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: San Diego, California

My Support Groups:
hey cat I notice that when I get a cold or any other little virus or infection, my symptoms seem to be worse. I've not been in remission, I don't know if it would be like that if I was, but regularly, if I have something, my symptoms increase in severity.

I hope you get to feeling better soon!! and YES when it rains it does freaking pour!!! big hugs
__________________
Diagnosed with CD in 1999 at 15.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?...14&ref=tn_tnmn


Sadie turns 2, 4/5/13!
07-10-2012, 03:09 PM   #7
Tenacity
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Houston, Texas

My Support Groups:
JDTM471706 said:
;the fact that Crohn's disease is so closely linked to other autoimmune disorders, and the fact that there is a demonstrable genetic component as well leads me to believe that it's not that simple. Antibiotics also don't work for everyone.

That said, poor Cat is feeling sick and just looking for some advice -- this might not be the right place to have a debate on etiology.
I agree 1000%.

Interesting how people can be on deaths bed with crohns, and then chemo stops all their symptoms within days. Read up on this. Sometime you gotta do more than just look at studies and argue what they say, because it "makes sense to you". If it was just map, this thing would of been solved within the last 20 years.

Hope you start to feel well soon cat! I know how awful it is battling crohns and a cold... starts some Tylenol cold and zycam
07-10-2012, 03:15 PM   #8
kiny
Senior Member
 
kiny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
If it was just map, this thing would of been solved within the last 20 years.
Johne's disease has existed for over a century without it being "solved" because it's an intracellular bacteria that is hard to detect and hard to kill. E coli has existed for how long? And no one has solved all the diseases related to E Coli.

Why do you think it would have been solved within the last 20 years?
07-10-2012, 03:19 PM   #9
JDTM
OMG LDN BBQ
 
JDTM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Providence, Rhode Island

My Support Groups:
Guys, don't make me pull this car over. ;)

By all means, discuss, but consider starting a new thread.
07-10-2012, 06:50 PM   #10
Ihurt
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: United States

My Support Groups:
I have IC which is a disease that causes inflammation/ulcers in the bladder. To this date doctors have no real proof to what causes it. I do know that they tried to say that IC is not caused by bacteria, yet many are getting relief(including myself) from antibitoics.

It is a very high possibility that crohn's is caused by a bacteria. There are studies being done right now that have found that certain bacteria have developed what they call Biofilms that protect them from being detected and killed. These little bacteria are becoming extremely evolved, they have been for years, just that the scientists and researchers are kind of way behind in times unfortunately. It took them years and years to finally discover gastric ulcers were caused by the bacterium helicobactor pylori. So yes, there is a very good chance that crohn's is caused by a bacteria, just they have no real proof aside from results of some getting well on antibitoics. But here is the catch-all, you cannot kill "ALL" the bacteria in the gut no matter what you do so you would have to be on antibitoics long term and consistently in order to keep the disease away or from coming back. This is obviously not a great solution. Peopel with lyme disease feel nomal when they take antibitoics( some have to have a pic-line in for months), but as soon as they stop the antibitoics, all symptoms return.

Autoimmune just means your immune system in not working up to par and is in a whirl-wind and does not how to work anymore, it is either not working well enough or it is working too much or both. That is when people get dx with these diseases like lupus, crohn's, scleroderma, etc...... Remember that alot of these diseases just have names slapped on them instead of just saying your immune system has lost it's balance and is not working right anymore. And of course there is a reason for the immune system being impaired whether it is a bacteria or virus attacking the immune system, that is what they need to find out....






Johne's disease has existed for over a century without it being "solved" because it's an intracellular bacteria that is hard to detect and hard to kill. E coli has existed for how long? And no one has solved all the diseases related to E Coli.

Why do you think it would have been solved within the last 20 years?
07-10-2012, 07:05 PM   #11
InChristAlone
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Enoch, Utah
Okay, let's get back to Cat.
Hi Cat,
Sorry you are not well. I have the same issue when I start to get a cold. I am a teacher, so atleast once a year I get hit hard and of course all the Crohn's stuff comes on with a vengence! Get rest. Praying you feel better soon!
__________________
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" Phil. 4:13
07-10-2012, 07:36 PM   #12
Cat-a-Tonic
Super Moderator
 
Cat-a-Tonic's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Madison, Wisconsin

My Support Groups:
Thanks ICA. I couldn't imagine being a teacher, it seems like I have to avoid children or I get sick. In fact, we had friends over Saturday evening and they brought their toddler, I would bet that I caught this cold from the toddler - he didn't seem ill but his nose was running quite a lot which I just figured was a kid thing. Anyway, thanks. I've been resting all day and am feeling somewhat better. I still feel like I have a cold, but fortunately the guts have somewhat rebounded and I'm doing better.
07-10-2012, 08:55 PM   #13
Manzyb
Forum Monitor
 
Manzyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: San Diego, California

My Support Groups:
Glad you are doing a little better!

Darn kids, they are little buggers I catch stuff from Sadie all of the time!

My mother-in-law told me to take a combo of 1 pseudofed (sp?) and one benadryl. The pseudofed will help unstuff your nose, and the benadryl will help dry it all out. It worked pretty well for me Also, if your nose is really stuffy, Afrin always helps out a bunch too. Not sure what you are taking or can take for the cold! Just a couple of suggestions.

I'm just getting over a really bad chest cold that I got from dear daughter. I totally sympathize with you right now. Get lots of rest and hopefully you can eat some good comfort food
07-10-2012, 10:02 PM   #14
ZM1019
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Florida
Cat, colds in general don't bother my digestion but flu definitely will. I no longer take anything for either because medication definitely causes me problems because of the starch and probably cellulose in them. So I end up toughing it out as the lesser of two evils. I'm sorry you feel so badly. I hope you are better soon.


As for the whole ulcer, chrohn's debate, bacteria isn't the only cause of ulcers. See below from the Mayo Clinic site:

Your digestive tract is coated with a mucous layer that normally protects against acid. But if the amount of acid is increased or the amount of mucus is decreased, you could develop an ulcer. Causes include:

A bacterium. A common cause of ulcers is the corkscrew-shaped bacterium Helicobacter pylori. H. pylori bacteria commonly live and multiply within the mucous layer that covers and protects tissues that line the stomach and small intestine. Often, H. pylori causes no problems. But sometimes it can disrupt the mucous layer and inflame the lining of your stomach or duodenum, producing an ulcer. It's not clear how H. pylori spreads. It may be transmitted from person to person by close contact, such as kissing. People may also contract H. pylori through food and water.

Regular use of pain relievers. Certain over-the-counter and prescription pain medications can irritate or inflame the lining of your stomach and small intestine. These medications include aspirin, ibuprofen (Advil, Motrin, others), naproxen (Aleve, Anaprox, others), ketoprofen and others. Peptic ulcers are more common in older adults who take pain medications frequently, such as might be common in people with osteoarthritis. To help avoid digestive upset, take pain relievers with meals. If you have been diagnosed with an ulcer, make sure your doctor knows this when prescribing any pain reliever. The pain reliever acetaminophen (Tylenol, others) doesn't cause peptic ulcers.

Other medications. Other prescription medications that can also lead to ulcers include medications used to treat osteoporosis called bisphosphonates (Actonel, Fosamax, others).

My erosion of the esophagus/colon and my ulcers were caused by Alleve. I was tested for every bacteria associated within two months of onset and nothing. I was very sensitive from the first one pill dose of over-the-counter Alleve I took and it ate holes in me. Then I became allergic to it. It was that simple. I'm not even sure anyone knew it did that back then but every doctor I've seen in the last two years has pointed to it because I have no bacteria in testing and I had onset right after taking it. It ate holes in me, caused my body to overreact to even trace elements of starch (so they feel like glass cutting me up) and somehow along the way something triggered CD, which according to my GI and the pathologist is just starting. So there we are. My body is attacking itself because there is nothing there to attack - it just believes there is. My brain is signaling the attack on a non-existent enemy.

And my erosion and ulcers were not healed by antibiotics. I never have taken them for any of this. I stopped eating any trace of starch and took Omeprazole. My recent colonoscopy/endoscopy showed all of that had healed. Now I just have to work on the Crohn's. And there's no infection or overpopulation of bacteria that they could find. My GI talked about how it could hide and that's why she took multitudes of biopsies and tests (just as they did two years ago). There's nothing. - Thank God for that too. At the rate I become allergic to antibiotics, I would be in very big trouble if that was my treatment.

We all have a right to believe about this what we want. Right now I have to go with what my multitudes of tests showed me. It's the best I can do. As far as I'm concerned, whatever works for someone is great.

At this point I just hope that Cat feels better soon.
07-10-2012, 10:52 PM   #15
ellie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Sydney Australia

My Support Groups:
Glad you're feeling a bit better Cat - wishing you a speedy recovery!
Interesting conversation evolved out of your initial post, too. My impression is that the immune system seems to be somewhat "dysregulated" in CD.. Not "autoimmune" in the usual sense of the word, but since most of the treatment options tend to suppress the immune system, we're collectively prone to catching anything going around. I'm currently just on Sulphasalazine, and only seem to catch one out of every 5-6 colds/ viral bugs that the rest of the family get. And it generally tends to be more short lived. But give me a course of antibiotics for it and the colon will soon start to grumble!!
Hope you're well again soon Cat



HD
07-10-2012, 11:04 PM   #16
ellie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Sydney Australia

My Support Groups:
Another thought re possible infectious agents in CD - in the same way Creutzfeldt-Jacob disease Is caused by prions which have been relatively recently identified and against which normal sterilizing procedures are of uncertain efficacy, then it's not beyond the realms of possibility that some form of infective agent activates CD in genetically predisposed individuals. Just a thought.. (the earlier suggestion of a separate thread on this topic sounds good!)


HD
Reply

Crohn's Disease Forum » General IBD Discussion » Remission & immune system
Thread Tools


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:54 PM.
Copyright 2006-2017 Crohnsforum.com