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Crohn's Disease Forum » Books, Multimedia, Research & News » Moving on to Nitrates and Nitrites


 
09-17-2012, 12:31 PM   #1
mf15
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Moving on to Nitrates and Nitrites

Not sure where this will go yet. But NO inhibits sulfurtrasforases.
NO is associated with UC,but they are have difficulty if good or bad.
Old Mike
This says bad.
http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs...ournalCode=gas

Increase in nitrate fertilizer.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0705215239.htm

Nitrate free meat porducts probably have more since many use celery juice.
Lots of veggies have nitrate,which is converted to nitrite in the gut.
Now the question might be,are organic veggies any better,if they dont use nitrate fertilizer.
Don't know if they do or don't yet,or if any diff in nitrate in the veggie with or without
nitrate fertilizer.
http://culinaryarts.about.com/od/sea...a/nitrates.htm

Some info,it seems that when nitrate fertilizer used the concentration
in the veggie goes up,really up in the hydroponic veggies you might
get in the winter. Some people get worse in the winter.
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/90/1/11.full

Timeline ammonia Haber process 1913
http://www.yupedia.com/a-timeline-of...ertilizer.html
http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...er-anniversary

Still lots to look at,have not even started yet.
I had no idea that there was a lot of nitrates in veggies.
Better living through chemistry,not.
They may have ruined are whole food supply.
Just a guess right now that all these exogenous nitrates might be driving excess
NO.
At least back in the 80's you were getting a lot from veggies say 2 grams for every kilogram
leafy veggies,including lettuce even up to 4 grams.
http://128.121.182.245/documents/Joji/leafnitrate.pdf

Looks like the average person might eat 75mg a day,other data over 200mg for 60kg person.
http://www.leafforlife.org/PAGES/LEAFVEG.HTM
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/1...40040903586299
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20005300
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18194497
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9443117

Medical dogma may of course be wrong,especially if NO is a problem for us.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15223073

Dont know exactly what this means,nitrates not found in the stool,could mean used or excreated in urine,bacteria ate it.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8146105

Celiac.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9702653

not sure what they mean here.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22464802

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17082222

docs are getting testy again.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19748594

you might want to at leat think about red meat intake.
http://carcin.oxfordjournals.org/content/17/3/515.short

it is also a bacteria killer and may protect from gut infection
http://journals.cambridge.org/downlo...451e4f5abcf862

hopefully not duplicated
http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs...65529509096328

must read
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...8.03612.x/full

Old Mike
09-17-2012, 02:20 PM   #2
David
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My research has taken me there as well. I'll start with this long but amazing read.

Guess who has the highest intake of these nitrates - Europeans - North america wasn't tallied, too bad.

I've always wondered why people with IBD have SO MUCH trouble with salads. Maybe this is why:


Source

And you know all that hydroponic lettuce bring grown in hot houses these days? The nitrate levels of those are off the charts.

Oh my:
stool and plasma nitrate + nitrite concentrations were significantly higher in children with inflammatory bowel disease compared with levels in control children
Source

Corticosteroids inhibit nitric oxide.

Remicade lowers nitric oxide levels.

So does Azathioprine - they say 6-MP doesn't but then there's this.

And here's a tidbit for low dose naltrexone.

So every single decent treatment for IBD interferes with the whole nitrate - nitrite - peroxynitrite - nitric oxide fun.
09-17-2012, 02:39 PM   #3
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In our study, an acute UC was induced in Swiss mice using 3% Dextran Sulfate Sodium (DSS). The preventive effects of "Ultrabiotique®" (a probiotic) and inulin (a prebiotic) on the colitis were investigated. The production of NO was evaluated in the supernatants of peritoneal macrophages (pMφ) cultures. Colonic mucosa histology was subsequently examined. Results showed severe acute UC after administration of DSS. High levels of NO in pMφ cultures were also observed compared to control samples. These findings correlated with a significant destruction of the colonic mucosa.
Oral administration of Ultrabiotique® or inulin decreased the severity of DSS-induced colitis. These treatments lead to a decrease in NO levels in pMφ cultures. A considerable reduction of colonic lesions was also noticed. Our findings suggest the involvement of NO in experimental UC pathogenesis. Pre- and pro-biotics, as discussed herein, seem to have an anti-inflammatory effect.
xx
09-17-2012, 02:44 PM   #4
mf15
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Good article on the peroxynitrate. They talk about arginine,it makes me worse.
I believe that the use of nitrogen fertilizers starting 1913 with the Haber process,making cheap nitrogen fertilizer is resulting in excessive nitrate consumption. IBD in the usa started to increase sometime in the 1920's we have to continue to look at history to figure out what is going on. One reason they might not be able to figure out IBD is that most eat the same foods,even if vegan,I have been trying to figue out for years why some vegetarians get IBD,high nitrate may be one of them. There is no reason for me to believe that our bodies can handle this excessive nitrate load.
Old Mike
09-17-2012, 02:47 PM   #5
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I'm a permaculture farmer.

Wanna know what happens to a plant that gets too much nitrogen?

They get fertilizer burn where the plant becomes dessicated as a result of osmotic stress. Then the bugs eat it. Unless of course you pour pesticides on it.

Bugs tend to leave healthy plants alone, especially when there are plenty of good predatory bugs around due to there being habitat for them and the farmer doesn't kill them with pesticides.

I think something similar happens in humans with IBD. We kill tons of our good bugs, we don't create a good habitat for our immune system/good bugs, and then cause a sort of fertilizer burn of our tissues and the bad bugs invade.
09-17-2012, 03:04 PM   #6
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where is the NO coming from in IBD, think it comes from the active macrophages, so does it matter if you eat this or that
09-17-2012, 03:11 PM   #7
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EXCESS NO is coming from Nitrates in our food and water supply.

NO is a cellular signaling molecule and very beneficial. When there is TOO MUCH and superoxides present, THEN you form peroxynitrite and which can damage cellular DNA and cause cell death.

Read up on peroxynitrite. I think it's a huge key. And interfering with your superoxides so not as much peroxynitrite forms is why I think your tumeric and such helps. Or you take your western meds which inhibits NO so not as much peroxynitrite is formed.
09-17-2012, 03:30 PM   #8
mf15
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Nitrite production starts in your mouth,via breakdown of nitrate to nitrite by bacteria.
At least in UC the there are nitrate/nitrite bacteria present in the colon where excess NO can be produced.
Something is going on with nitrates.
http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs...65529509096328
Old Mike
09-17-2012, 03:35 PM   #9
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Fun facts:

The acidity produced by carbohydrates increases the oral breakdown Mike speaks of.

Stress increases NO production.
09-17-2012, 03:39 PM   #10
kiny
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why they tell ppl to eat all the blueberries for crohn, cause of the polyphenols that stop the oxidative damage, there's a list with food high in polyphenols but idk where I have it anymore
09-17-2012, 03:42 PM   #11
kiny
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list http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/79...expansion.html
09-17-2012, 03:49 PM   #12
David
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Sourcing what I wrote above and addition interesting tidbits:

http://discovermagazine.com/1995/oct/tonguebugs581

The news may help restore the good name not only of mouth bacteria but also of nitrate, which has a long history of bad press. The worry about nitrate--a stable compound of a nitrogen atom and three atoms of oxygen--has been that it can lose an oxygen and become nitrite, a much more reactive compound. Nitrite, in turn, can hook up with food components called amines to form nitrosamines. Studies in rats, as well as some epidemiological studies, have linked those compounds to stomach cancer.
An early test of this hypothesis produced promising results: if salivary nitrite is put in acid, the researchers found, it will indeed convert to E. coli- killing nitric oxide. We proved that if you took bacterial cultures and exposed them to acid, it didn’t do much, says Benjamin. But if you expose them to acid and a little bit of nitrite, it just wipes them out.
1. The "Specific Carbohydrate Diet" cuts down on carbs BIG time and a lot of people with Crohn's do well on it.
The demineralization of teeth (enamel, dentine, and cementum) is caused by organic acid produced from the bacterial fermentation of dietary carbohydrates. The frequent ingestion of carbohydrates may lead to the selection of bacteria that are acidogenic (capable of producing acid from carbohydrates) and aciduric (capable of tolerating acid) and concurrently to a low-pH environment. These conditions favor the solubilization of tooth minerals. The pH at which this demineralization begins is known as the critical pH and ranges between pH 5.0 and 5.5 (275).
Source

So lots of carbs = lots of acid the in the mouth.

2.
Like the human tongue, the rat tongue is covered with tiny fingerlike projections known as papillae. The bacteria that convert nitrate live in clefts between papillae at the rear of the tongue, out of reach of airborne oxygen. They are the kind of bacterium--facultative anaerobes-- that can survive with or without oxygen. We use oxygen to burn up the glucose in our bodies to make energy, Benjamin explains. Whereas if you’re one of these bacteria, you have alternatives. One alternative is to use nitrate. You use that to burn up your fuel. It turns nitrate to nitrite. That’s fine, as long as the nitrite isn’t acidified. If it’s on the surface of the tongue, it isn’t, because the saliva is nice and alkaline.
Source

3. One of the most common extraintestinal manifestations of people with Crohn's is aphthous ulcers. pH is more acidic in people with these ulcers.
Source

NO (nitric oxide) is good for wood!

Source

(penis stuff)

Similarly, Sildenafil citrate, popularly known by the trade name Viagra, stimulates erections primarily by enhancing signaling through the nitric oxide pathway in the penis.
Viagra treat's Crohn's disease.

Use all that nitric acid up elsewhere (penis) and it helps Crohn's. I realize they say it increases blood flow, I'm just making this fit my theory

For example, in one study, the risk of colon cancer increased for certain susceptible subgroups (e.g., those with low vitamin C intake or high meat intake) whose water had nitrate levels > MCL/2 for at least 10 years (DeRoos et al. 2003).
http://ehp03.niehs.nih.gov/article/i...89/ehp.1002878

A significant positive correlation was found between serum nitrate levels in ulcerative colitis and erythrocyte sedimentation rate (ESR) (r = 0.30, p - 0.01), leucocyte count (r = 0.27, p = 0.02), and thrombocyte count (r = 0.24, p = 0.04). Comparing active Crohn's disease patients (median, 37.5 mumol/l; range, 13.2-143.2 mumol/l) with inactive Crohn's disease patients (median, 31.3 mumol/l; range, 14.5-92.3 mumol/l) also showed a significant difference in serum nitrate concentration (p < 0.009). Serum nitrate levels correlated with the ESR (r = 0.26, p = 0.028) and serum albumin (r = 0.38, p = 0.004) as well.
Source: http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs...ournalCode=gas

Plasma nitrate concentration in infective gastroenteritis and inflammatory bowel disease.
http://gut.bmj.com/content/39/3/393.full.pdf+html

Nitric Oxide is Complicated

Vitamin B12 and Nitric Oxide
09-17-2012, 03:51 PM   #13
David
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And more from my research:

1. High intake of carbs = acidic environment

2. High intake of nitrates/nitrites = more nitric oxide and nitrites.

3. acidified nitrite mixed with hydrogen peroxide = peroxynitrite

Under physiological conditions, the production of peroxynitrite will be low and oxidative damage minimized by endogenous antioxidant defenses (1058, 1059). Even modest increases in the simultaneous production of superoxide and NO will greatly stimulate the formation of peroxynitrite; a 10-fold increase in superoxide and NO production will increase peroxynitrite formation 100-fold. Consequently, pathological conditions can greatly increase the production of peroxynitrite. Even the generation of a moderate flux of peroxynitrite over long periods of time will result in substantial oxidation and potential destruction of host cellular constituents, leading to the dysfunction of critical cellular processes, disruption of cell signaling pathways, and the induction of cell death through both apoptosis and necrosis (1334). Hence, the production of peroxynitrite can be instrumental in the development of many pathological processes in vivo.
4.
Only a few chemical groups directly react with peroxynitrite, which favors selective reactions with key moieties in proteins, such as thiols, iron/sulfur centers, and zinc fingers
Crohnies are commonly deficient in iron and Zinc.

This article is so amazing: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2248324/

Disabling of several cytoskeletal proteins by nitration represents a further major cytotoxic effect attributed to peroxynitrite. Tubulin nitration by peroxynitrite or by direct incorporation of free nitrotyrosine has been reported in cell lines derived from intestine (54), neurons (1269), and muscle (199), resulting in the loss of normal physiological functions. Peroxynitrite also disorganizes actin polymerization through actin nitration, and via the nitration of profilin (658, 659), an important actin-binding protein. These effects have been associated with platelet dysfunction (659), disruption of both intestinal (55) and endothelial barrier function (940), as well as impaired migration and phagocytosis of activated polymorphonuclear cells (221).
Supporting a role for iNOS-dependent generation of peroxynitrite in the pathogenesis of IBD, biochemical evidence of peroxynitrite generation (formation of nitrotyrosine) has been shown both in experimental models of colitis (885, 1170, 1464) and in human samples of active Crohn’s lesions, in which massive nitrotyrosine immunostaining has been reported (1170). The formation of peroxynitrite in such circumstances is largely favored, since not only NO but also superoxide are being formed in the inflamed intestines (268, 321), which explains the beneficial effects of SOD mimetics in experimental colitis (268). In addition, it is noteworthy that the direct application of authentic peroxynitrite within the gut elicits a severe, colitis-like, inflammatory response (1052). The pathogenic role of peroxynitrite has been firmly established by studies using pharmacological approaches to reduce peroxynitrite in the inflamed colon. Thus treatment of rats with the iNOS inhibitor and peroxynitrite scavenger mercaptoethylgaunidine markedly alleviated colonic injury induced by intrarectal instillation of TNBS (1456). Also, the peroxynitrite decomposition catalyst FP-15 exerted potent protective effect in mice fed with 5% dextran sulfate sodium (819). Treatment with this compound, when started simultaneously with dextran, largely reduced colon damage and inflammation, as assessed by histological evaluation, and reduced rectal bleeding, weight loss, and colon shortening. Furthermore, FP-15 reduced the colitis-induced increase in colonic malondialdehyde levels, indicative of the ability of the drug to attenuate oxidative stress, and reduced colonic infiltration by activated phagocytes, as determined by reduced myeloperoxidase levels (819).

As in the case of arthritis, there is large evidence that a common final pathway of peroxynitrite-dependent inflammatory changes in IBD depends on the activation of PARP. First, PARP is strongly activated in various rodent models of colitis, and second, pharmacological inhibition of PARP or PARP genetic suppression provided significant resistance against the development of colitis in these models (see Ref. 1230 for recent review). In addition to preventing cell necrosis by inhibiting ATP depletion, it has also been established that the absence of PARP exerted direct anti-inflammatory effects in TNBS-induced colitis as well as in the spontaneous colitis that develop in IL-10-deficient mice, as shown by decreased neutrophil infiltration, reduced release of proinflammatory cytokines and chemokines, and smaller increases in colon permeability (634, 818, 1461). In a recent work in mice challenged with intrarectal TNBS, reduced colon ulceration and apoptotic mucosal cell death were noted in PARP knockout mice and could be correlated with a reduced activation of the MAPK JNK. This was followed by a depressed activity of the transcription factor AP-1 in the colon, together with an enhanced expression of the antiapoptotic protein Bcl-2 (1458). These results represent a further illustration of the very complex interactions occurring in vivo between PARP, cell death, and inflammation, as exposed in detail in section IV.
Adding to the above:

5. Hydrogen Peroxide is broken down by Catalase:
Results:

SOD activity and H2O2 production were significantly higher during active CD but returned to control levels in remission. ΔΨm was inhibited during active CD and, although it returned to control levels, its recovery took longer than clinical remission. CAT activity was permanently inhibited during CD, independent of the disease activity. MDA and 8-oxo-dG were permanently elevated.
Conclusions:

Oxidative stress during active CD depends on H2O2 production. The inhibition of ΔΨm suggests that this organelle is a source of ROS. CAT is permanently inhibited in CD, the biological significance of which is under study. The persistent oxidative damage detected may have implications for the evolution of the disease. Inflamm Bowel Dis 2010
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...21027/abstract

6. http://www.biochemistry.org/Portals/.../SA117P005.pdf

So people with Crohn's don't produce Catalase which deals with H2O2. They take in tons of nitrates and nitrites and carbs which results in creation of excessive NO and peroxynitrite which results in:
Under physiological conditions, the production of peroxynitrite will be low and oxidative damage minimized by endogenous antioxidant defenses (1058, 1059). Even modest increases in the simultaneous production of superoxide and NO will greatly stimulate the formation of peroxynitrite; a 10-fold increase in superoxide and NO production will increase peroxynitrite formation 100-fold.
Which fucks up their world.
09-17-2012, 03:57 PM   #14
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One of the highest H2O2 containing foods is instant coffee. It is a known trigger for Crohnies. One of the highest nitrate containing foods is lettuce which fucks up their world. Juicing and some forms of enteral nutrition, both of which have remission rates on par with prednisone would result in the intake of high levels of catalase and reduced nitrates/ites. All good forms of treatment result in blocking nitric oxide in some way.
09-17-2012, 03:59 PM   #15
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Peroxinitrite and IBD:

http://gut.bmj.com/content/46/3/436.full

In addition to this, in a clinical condition (collagenous colitis) which is never associated with obvious macroscopic ulcerations, even higher levels of NO• than in ulcerative colitis are found.40 These studies suggest that NO• concentrations alone cannot dictate pathological inflammation in the intestine and makes the generation of peroxynitrite in vivo an exciting prospect, one which could explain the deleterious potential of both O2 −• and NO• in IBD.
09-17-2012, 04:00 PM   #16
mf15
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David: I see I have started you on a research rampage like I was on concerning this
subject a few days ago.
Old Mike
09-17-2012, 04:02 PM   #17
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Heheh. I've been working on this a few weeks now. Ever since you posted about sulfates actually. THAT is what sent me on a rampage
09-17-2012, 04:05 PM   #18
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what is he saying, not having enough zinc available impedes SOD as an antioxidant scavenger?

oxidant*
09-17-2012, 04:36 PM   #19
mf15
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IBD is multifactorial and much is related to diet. If related to MAP then perhaps our immune systems are wrecked by the foods. I believe that excessive fortification mainly iron is also a problem along with,veggie oils/linoleic acid,ecesss protein consumption/red meat/bacterial translocation/persorption.excess sulfate/sulfite,nitrate/nitrite.
Probably forgot a few in this mess,carageenan,particulates from toothpaste,surfactants like SLS,high fat diets leading to excessive translocation of bacteria and endotoxin, endotoxin in foods. Epigenetics causing changes in gene expression due to diet.
Corn fattening of animals. Processed foods.
ALso something wrong with excess zinc,can't remember right now what.
Old Mike
09-17-2012, 04:39 PM   #20
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Mike, as long as you mention toothpaste, what do you use instead? I noticed a couple days ago mine contains carageenan
09-17-2012, 04:54 PM   #21
mf15
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I am still working on that,looking for non sls none carageenan toothpaste.
Listerine gel is a possible but I find conflicting ingridient lists on the net.
Check out squiggle. I was just using baking soda,but my teeth become over sensetive,need the fluoride. I am against sls and other food emulsifiers,if they get to the colon they can disrupt the hydrophobic nature of the mucus barrier.
Here is a list of sls free,perhaps some are also carageenan free.
http://www.squidoo.com/toothpastes-w...lauryl-sulfate

Biotene fits the bill perhaps others.
Old Mike
09-17-2012, 05:31 PM   #22
kiny
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http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0612193833.htm

same with the blueberries, cause they think it's stoping oxidative stress

Protective effect of ellagic acid, a natural polyphenolic compound, in a murine model of Crohn's disease.

Oral administration of EA (10-20 mg/kg) diminished the severity and extension of the intestinal injuries induced by TNBS although there was no observed a significant dose-response. In addition, EA increased mucus production in goblet cells in colon mucosa, decreased neutrophil infiltration and pro-inflammatory proteins COX-2 and iNOS overexpression.
09-17-2012, 05:42 PM   #23
mf15
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Kiny: What I believe is going on is that people who have IBD,their detox systems are
overwhelmed with too many foreign chemicals in the body,along with gut bacteria derangement,and gene dysfunction. Dont believe one thing is going to fix it,except in the
case of UC,fecal transplant helps many.
The question might come down to how to fix the gut bacteria.
Answer: Stop feeding them all this excess fertilizer,food additives,bad fats,
chemicals.
Old Mike
09-18-2012, 02:15 AM   #24
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See i read something today. And it kind of made sense. I used a hydrocortisone on my hemmoroids and that pretty much healed it. That is really hitting the spot.
What if for crohnnies the actual cortisone is given via colonscopy on an empty bowel. That would make things heal quicker ( i know its expensive ). Is that not something that would work.?

Also i realised cortiscone is an anti-inflammatory and a very strong one.
10-28-2012, 07:55 PM   #25
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I've kept a daily food/medicine diary on a spreadsheet for the past 14 months. I developed a new Crohn's lesion on my left side after I ate Caesar salad 4 days in a row. I don't normally eat salad at all. I don't know anything about nitrate, so David, can you help me better understand - does the lettuce become saturated with nitrate or is it a residue on the leaves that could be washed off? And so how would you summarize how to avoid the problematic/risky foods? Just stay away from the foods in the high/very high columns?

My son gets lots of canker sores, but he does not have CD, at least not yet. Any suggestions for his diet, given that the canker sores may suggest a risk factor for developing CD, if I understand you correctly?
10-28-2012, 08:18 PM   #26
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Another couple of questions: I drink organic Lakewood pomegrante juice. I see on their web site that it states that the pom's are grown using "No synthetically compounded fertilizers". Does this mean it's safe from the excessive nitrogen fertilizer that you all have been discussing on this thread, or not necessarily?

And on a different note, David, is there a good book that you would recommend regarding the permaculture farming you're involved with? I'd like to understand this stuff better. Mabye I'll have to move somewhere that I can become a permaculture farmer myself someday.


http://www.lakewoodjuices.com/product_detail/id-37/

The Juice from 10-12 Fresh Pomegranates in Every Bottle.

Contains NO water, NOT from Concentrate, NO Additives

Certified Organic by QCS - Florida Organic Growers and Consumers

Certified Organic Fruit and Vegetables - Grown and harvested in accordance with the USDA National Organic Program.
No synthetically compounded fertilizers, pesticides, herbicides or growth regulators. All Lakewood juices are pressed, bottled and vacuum sealed in Certified Organic Facilities.
10-28-2012, 11:01 PM   #27
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Mark,

I'm still learning about nitrates/nitrites and all that jive, but here is my understanding. Please note it may be incorrect so be sure to double check me. In normal environments, soil microbes provide nitrogen to plants in a controlled manner. However, when you apply synthetic fertilizers such as ammonium nitrate to the soil, they are so soluble that the plant just sucks the stuff up like crazy and the nitrate levels of those plants increase dramatically. Do it hydroponically and completely bypass those soil microbes and give plants all the nitrogen fertilizer they can handle and they're just sucking it up like a straw.

My guess is your juice is free from high nitrate levels but that's just a guess.

Thing is, it's grown in Florida where I live. There's really no such things as "organic" here in Florida because they spray everywhere for mosquitoes. They spray terrible synthetic pesticides EVERYWHERE from planes and trucks. And this gets on crops. You ask, "Organic" farmers about this and they say, "I don't do it so it's fine". I got in an argument at a plant show with a well known organic farmer today on this very subject. "People are paying you extra for pesticide free food and YOURS IS NOT!"

I've personally spent hundreds of dollars on huge tarps for when they spray.

I don't even trust organic food at this point because so many organic farmers are not being honest. It's very upsetting to me.

As for diet, gosh, that's so hard. The first thing I'd check is his toothpaste. All I use is salt, baking soda, coconut oil, and peppermint mixed together. It sounds paranoid until you start to read the data out there.

Here's the book I recommend.
10-28-2012, 11:51 PM   #28
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This study presents Vitamin C's efficacy in preventing peroxynitrite induced
oxidations.


It is quite a hefty read though :/

Gianni
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10-29-2012, 12:05 AM   #29
Mark in Seattle
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Well that's some really eye-opening stuff. What food can you really trust any more? Thanks for replying. I've had it on my list to find the natural toothpaste, will have to take that search up again.
10-29-2012, 12:08 AM   #30
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Good natural toothpaste is hard to find. I picked up and put down every single one in our local whole foods. Most have carrageenan and/or SLS.

And yes, it's hard to know what to trust. The last thing I want to do is be paranoid or make others feel that way as I realize nothing is perfect, but the state of our food/water supply is really quite atrocious in my opinion.
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