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Crohn's Disease Forum » General IBD Discussion » Do you believe crohn's is purely genetic?


 
10-18-2012, 11:37 PM   #31
Gianni
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Obviously that is exactly what you wanted to tell us... about your diet, just like you have without me in the last 6 posts. Which is ok, absolutely - its your side of how you view this whole disease. I was actually trying to help you, believe it or not. I assumed this thread was in responce to a forum member asking you (in another thread) to make a genetic vs diet thread. Your answer was "noted" shortly followed by this thread. So please dont play coy and make me look bad. I WAS trying to help get it started with a valid question that ive always had. But... i will stay away - Ive got no opinion on genetics. No one thinks its "just genetics". There are most likely more components then we believe there are. Way more.
Yeah this thread got away from me... sorry bout that... I guess this thread is open to just about any topic now.

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10-18-2012, 11:43 PM   #32
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Yeah this thread got away from me... sorry bout that... I guess this thread is open to just about any topic now.

Gianni
Just for the record I did think you brought up some good points.
10-19-2012, 12:40 AM   #33
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As long as we're making observations, your posts come off to me as someone who lacks the imagination to entertain the idea of a different pool of knowledge not popularly accessed. In my previous threads you refused to reply to my sources of nutrition not being traditionally taught in medical school, nor did you respond when I brought up my opinions on suppressing inflammation and extraintestinal manifestations. You are headstrong, as am I, but I don't think someone holds the power to critique someone if they had not at least entertained the ideas presented.
I was diagnosed when I was a child and pretty much grew up with the disease. I don't know everything and am open to new ideas but I'm not a novice either. Over the years of joining this forum my posts seem to now lack emotion or creativity and depth due to the repetition of responding to the same questions and ideas over and over. Diet and nutrition are nothing new. Eating healthy is one of the first things we learned in school where I'm from all the way down to preschool. So in my mind anything having to do with diet being healthy and good for you is common knowledge to the point of being common sense. I'm certainly not lacking in imagination and I'm always learning something new on this forum. Quite honestly I've learned something new everyday since I joined the forum be it a new diet, possible side effects to simply learning about the members here etc.

We have a tagging system now on the forum which is a wonderful tool where you can mention someone's name and they'll see your post (I often get tagged when people are feeling just plain "crabby" :P). Being a monitor on the forum I'm not always able to head back to threads I've already responded in, especially when I feel there's no further debate on the matter. The Administrator, forum monitors and moderators are quite busy simply trying to keep up with all the new threads that come in. If I don't respond to you where you feel a response is needed (or if you simply want me to read a post) then tag my name in your post and I'll head back there. I've tried my best on the forum but am not able to come back into every thread I've posted in.
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Currently in: REMISSION Thought it was a flare but it's just scar tissue from my resection. Dealing with a stricture. Remission from my resection, 17 years and counting.
10-19-2012, 01:18 AM   #34
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Eating healthy is one of the first things we learned in school where I'm from all the way down to preschool. So in my mind anything having to do with diet being healthy and good for you is common knowledge to the point of being common sense.
Yes I also did learn about nutrition in school at a young age but I wouldn't exactly call those 5 food groups healthy seeing as processed sugar was actually one of them.

According to the governments nutritional standards taught in elementary schools today,

A bowl of Lucky Charms with Low-fat Milk and a glass of orange juice from concentrate for breakfast; Cheese-flavored crackers (Cheez-It) for a morning snack; A cheeseburger on a whole-grain bun with French fries and a can of Coke for lunch; Chocolate pudding and grapes for an afternoon snack; and chicken nuggets with a biscuit, green beans from a can for dinner with low-fat ice cream for dessert.(excerpt from "Forks Over Knives")

Is a completely healthy day's worth of food (according to the USDA).

I don't believe what I am suggesting is "common sense" as I am proposing that food is much more powerful than generally thought. Obviously this nation has a skewed opinion on what is healthy when you take a look at the average diet.

You claim that the importance of diet is common sense to you, yet you voted diet to be "somewhat important" on my other thread because you felt like diet only helped because liquid diets don't aggravate symptoms... so I'm a bit confused now.

We have a tagging system now on the forum which is a wonderful tool where you can mention someone's name and they'll see your post (I often get tagged when people are feeling just plain "crabby" :P). Being a monitor on the forum I'm not always able to head back to threads I've already responded in, especially when I feel there's no further debate on the matter. The Administrator, forum monitors and moderators are quite busy simply trying to keep up with all the new threads that come in. If I don't respond to you where you feel a response is needed (or if you simply want me to read a post) then tag my name in your post and I'll head back there. I've tried my best on the forum but am not able to come back into every thread I've posted in.
I brought it up because we were actively engaged in the conversation or debate but when I brought up a credible source as evidence the conversation died, and it came off as you didn't want to entertain the idea and rather shrug off something that didn't agree with your preconceived notions.

I understand you are busy as you are almost always the first person to greet new members as well as ease the concerns of troubled members, and I know everyone appreciates that.

Gianni
10-19-2012, 01:58 AM   #35
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Yes I also did learn about nutrition in school at a young age but I wouldn't exactly call those 5 food groups healthy seeing as processed sugar was actually one of them.
We were showed the food pyramid (and since then its changed, I posted a thread about it a while back, maybe I can still find the link, can't find the thread, should be in the Members Only section pages back but here's a link to My Plate: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0602145249.htm). The old food pyramid was total crap and we all knew it. Candy shouldn't be up there. :P That's not even really food. The new one they have now is a lot better than the old one but still has too much grains in my opinion. There's just no way grains are as important as vegetables but I addressed this in my old thread.

According to the governments nutritional standards taught in elementary schools today,

A bowl of Lucky Charms with Low-fat Milk and a glass of orange juice from concentrate for breakfast; Cheese-flavored crackers (Cheez-It) for a morning snack; A cheeseburger on a whole-grain bun with French fries and a can of Coke for lunch; Chocolate pudding and grapes for an afternoon snack; and chicken nuggets with a biscuit, green beans from a can for dinner with low-fat ice cream for dessert.(excerpt from "Forks Over Knives")

Is a completely healthy day's worth of food (according to the USDA).
Ya I could care less what they make up to try and sell more crappy products. My school, teachers, parents and doctors all knew better. Obviously none of the stuff listed above is healthy (we were taught the food pyramid but went in depth on the meaning of each section and what was actually a healthy diet). When I say "healthy" I mean food in its rawest form where it contains the most nutrients. Any packaged product was listed near the top at my school (the stuff at the top was the stuff to avoid).

I don't believe what I am suggesting is "common sense" as I am proposing that food is much more powerful than generally thought. Obviously this nation has a skewed opinion on what is healthy when you take a look at the average diet.
I keep hearing this but I'm confused. What is the "average diet?" You bring up the USA a lot, yet the people on the forum are from everywhere around the world. Not to mention the USA is made up from people from all around the world and we serve food from all cultures and even consume imported products. Why constantly bring up the (what I assume you're referring to) the American stereotype diet of hamburgers and fried cheese when not only are many people on here not from the USA but most can't even eat that stuff because they have IBD. I don't understand why you assume we all eat poorly.

You claim that the importance of diet is common sense to you, yet you voted diet to be "somewhat important" on my other thread because you felt like diet only helped because liquid diets don't aggravate symptoms... so I'm a bit confused now.
I said diets are important during a flare. When I think "diet" in reference to Crohn's I think of foods that wont bring on more symptoms, to avoid your trigger foods and obvious trigger foods (fried food, fatty food, spicy foods, fiber, nuts, seeds, etc). When we're talking diet in reference to Crohn's we're talking about making a flare worse or causing a flare in general. I'm still of the opinion that food does not cause flares (again this is not only based on what my doctors say but my own personal experience). That doesn't mean I promote eating unhealthy food or that my doctors said unhealthy foods are ok. Just like smoking is bad in general for everyone with or without IBD (not talking about Colitis, that's a different topic and its the nicotine that helps not the act of smoking) so is fried food. That's common sense at this point.

When you mentioned "diet" I didn't think you meant choosing a salad over a fried mayonnaise ball. I know I'd get diarrhea from either one but I'd prefer the salad.

I brought it up because we were actively engaged in the conversation or debate but when I brought up a credible source as evidence the conversation died, and it came off as you didn't want to entertain the idea and rather shrug off something that didn't agree with your preconceived notions.
As I said I'm very busy with the forum but as I've also mentioned I'm one of my grandpa's caregivers so sometimes I'm not physically or mentally capable of posting on the forum and threads that die don't get my attention right away unless there's less than 3 posts (gotta make sure everyone gets the help they need).

I understand you are busy as you are almost always the first person to greet new members as well as ease the concerns of troubled members, and I know everyone appreciates that.
Thank you
10-19-2012, 06:21 AM   #36
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Well those methods show great alternatives to picking each individual kernel out... did you watch the vids?
And yeah don't juice the pith, its gross, although the pith is a great cold remedy
Gianni
Yeah man I watched the videos, I have no problem opening them up, been doing it since I was six. The problem is, it's a pain in the ass and takes forever. I was looking for an easier way to attack this fruit in the juicer. Anyway, you slice it really must be worth it because I have been opening them up and eating them for the past 35 years.

I was a lot like you are when I was 21, I wish I was that young again. I enjoy our debates as well, and never take anything personal. I have noticed that it's hard to make any headway on some points. It seems like I am always putting you on the defensive and that is not my goal. All I can say for now is to just keep that fire burning inside you.

I don't suppose you read my theory on what I have discovered about the genetics behind my particular case of IBD? Or why other cases respond the way they do to certain therapies? Apparently, (at least in some cases) the mono-clonal antibody (MAB) treatments aren't effective because the defect causing the specific form of IBD is farther upstream metabolically. As a result, after treatment with MABs the body responds by making antibodies against various MABs in an attempt to render them ineffective, which is a normal response the body would be expected to make to address that type insult, because the MABs were not mediated to be there by the body in the first place. This is why some people need to take other immune suppressors like mtx or Imuran along with the MAB to negate that response. But as you know, the consequences of suppressing the immune system are nothing to sneeze at.

Personally, I discovered that a rare genetic defect hinders my body from producing a fundamental ligand crucial for maintain metabolic homeostasis quick enough when needed. I think this defeciency may be at least partly responsible for causing my case of IBD. This particular deficiency has been associated with all forms of IBD and is also responsible for causing a number of other associated problems that I have been experiencing like, fatigue, joint pain etc...

If you're curious to find out more do a search on google on the role of nitric oxide (inflammatory mediator), heme oxygenase, in the colon as well as the presence of colonic cytochrome enzymes in Crohn's. If you can bear to sift through all the research you will find that certain people express different levels of these cytochrome enzymes in different parts of the intestine and specific patterns seem to be a recurring theme in certain IBD patients. The ligand that "activates" the apo-cytochrome enzymes is called heme, so it's interesting that people with a deficiency in heme synthesis also have IBD. In addition, there have been studies that directly link exhaled nitric oxide levels and active IBD demonstrating that this is indeed a systemic disease (duh?) Isn't that what our old pal Hippocrates was teaching? Currently, soluble guanylyl cyclase is the only known nitric acid receptor in the body and it also relies on heme to function. It's makes sense that a relationship between nitric oxide levels and IBD has already been established (see link below). At least for some people, it seems like this a common spot in metabolism (loss of adequate heme regulation) that some forms of IBD share and/or where they start to differentiate into the various diseases.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12194639

None of this theory is written in stone, I am putting all of this out there hoping that someone might be able to shed some more light on these ideas one way or the other.
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10-19-2012, 07:26 AM   #37
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Purely genetic?
Nobody else in my immediate or extended family has Crohns Disease.
There are over 100 family members in my immediate and extended family that I am genetically related to.
Not a single one with CD.
I had no intestinal issues prior to being diagnosed 20 years ago.
I had a very regular trauma free life.
(Had plenty of traumas since!!)

Buggered if I know what caused me to get Crohns.
But I'm pretty sure it wasn't genetics or trauma.
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10-19-2012, 09:01 AM   #38
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It's always a puzzle when one person is sick and no-one else in the family has it- I'm undiagnosed at 25 but all I can find in the family is a few cases of cancer, a great-aunt with UC, my grandad's great-neice with CD, and Mum's cousin who has psoriasis (I mention the latter because my Rheumy always asks about that condition/anyone closer who has it).

But having done a family tree (male line from my Granddad up ) recently, back to the early 1700's, (my great x 7 grandparents) I realize there are alot more people related to me (and potentially passed faulty genes down) than whose health I can look at today!
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2006. Tummy issues (more IBD than IBS).
2009 joint pain/worsening tummy issues.
CRP 20-36 2006-now. C3/C4 inflammation markers huge,
2014 IDA & low B12.

June 2014 admitted to Hospital 3 nights as emergency transfused 2 units of blood. Dangerous case of anaemia.
Caught by pure chance!
Cause currently unknown but suspected CD.

Waiting on blood & stool results from January.

Hoping to stop anaemia treatment soon & lower B12 daily dose!

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10-19-2012, 10:48 AM   #39
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My mum & I have Crohns. Cant be just co incidence.
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Bowel resection July 2012


10-19-2012, 11:06 AM   #40
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If you're curious to find out more do a search on google on the role of nitric oxide (inflammatory mediator), heme oxygenase, in the colon as well as the presence of colonic cytochrome enzymes in Crohn's. If you can bear to sift through all the research you will find that certain people express different levels of these cytochrome enzymes in different parts of the intestine and specific patterns seem to be a recurring theme in certain IBD patients. The ligand that "activates" the apo-cytochrome enzymes is called heme, so it's interesting that people with a deficiency in heme synthesis also have IBD. In addition, there have been studies that directly link exhaled nitric oxide levels and active IBD demonstrating that this is indeed a systemic disease (duh?) Isn't that what our old pal Hippocrates was teaching? Currently, soluble guanylyl cyclase is the only known nitric acid receptor in the body and it also relies on heme to function. It's makes sense that a relationship between nitric oxide levels and IBD has already been established (see link below). At least for some people, it seems like this a common spot in metabolism (loss of adequate heme regulation) that some forms of IBD share and/or where they start to differentiate into the various diseases.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12194639

None of this theory is written in stone, I am putting all of this out there hoping that someone might be able to shed some more light on these ideas one way or the other.
Interesting stuff, I did look over the source. I have had asthma since infancy although I haven't experiences any asthma related problems for nearly a decade now.

I wonder if the body is able to monitor Nitric Oxide levels on it's own and its just part of this particular immune response that it isn't a part of. Or maybe environmental toxins can inhibit the production of NO. Or maybe a gene...or it is solely because of heme.

I know i was deficient in hemoglobin which might explain UC and Crohn's low level of heme. Apparently heme when exposed to free radicals may be responsible for an acute inflammatory response.

I found it interesting, while reading, that heme will break down through heme oxygenase eventually into bilirubin. I remember taking a high school physical a year before my diagnosis and my doctor told me I had an elevated level of bilirubin in my urine. It also appears that this occurs under oxidative stress and when free radicals are presents, so definitely something I am going to look more into.

Thanks for the info.

Gianni
10-19-2012, 05:41 PM   #41
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The role of bilirubin is quite interesting in all of this but I will have to talk about that later.

As for the NO levels being monitored by your body, the answer is yes. When your body needs NO there is actually an entire family of enzymes responsible for catalyzing the production of NO. NO is very important for many functions in your body in fact, VIAGRA works by enhancing signaling through the NO pathway. So you can see at least one way its function is very important.

All of these metabolic systems in the body are interconnected and influence each other. If one system goes out of balance, other systems try to compensate to return the body back to a state of equilibrium (homeostasis). However, trying to follow the tangle of signals that connect every system and axis of control is quite a formidable task.

The fascinating part of all of this (at least to me) is the way all of this is regulated. If your body needs more of a particular enzyme, it makes more directly from expressing and translating your DNA. The level of control and cross talk involved is the fascinating part. It’s a little too complex for me to get into the detailed required but I will try to simplify.

In order for DNA to be transcribed, the right proteins have to be activated by the appropriate ligands and then bind together with other appropriate transcription factors – then the proteins complex together with either themselves (homodimerize) or other proteins (heterodimerize) before they can attach to the promoter region of the DNA. However, this can only happen if other signaling proteins have already triggered the correct section of DNA to unwrap itself from the histone that it is wound around. Even then, if all those conditions are met transcription can’t happen unless other proteins allow the dimerized complex to enter the nucleus of the cell so that it can bind to the promoter region of the DNA. Then after mRNA is transcribed, it’s translated into the proper enzyme by stringing together tRNA sequences in the specific order that the mRNA dictates and finally makes the enzyme you needed in the first place. Each one of these ligands, transcription factors, nuclear receptors, co-factors have multiple functions in your body and mediate control over overlapping systems, that sometimes oppose each other. I left out a lot, but there are factors and co-factors involved some inhibit transcription some that enhance it, regardless of all that, DNA transcription and translation is going on constantly in your body 24/7. Whether it is to make more of the enzyme that pigments your eyes or to produce epithelial cells in your intestine or to make more TNF-alpha or what ever is needed to return the body back to homeostasis. Maybe I make another thread to talk about the role of heme in all this, because it’s a crucial signaling ligand that is fundamental for all of this signaling that has evolved around it to work properly.

I'll put more up later if anyone is interested, time for dinner now.
10-19-2012, 06:31 PM   #42
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I keep hearing this but I'm confused. What is the "average diet?" You bring up the USA a lot, yet the people on the forum are from everywhere around the world. Not to mention the USA is made up from people from all around the world and we serve food from all cultures and even consume imported products. Why constantly bring up the (what I assume you're referring to) the American stereotype diet of hamburgers and fried cheese when not only are many people on here not from the USA but most can't even eat that stuff because they have IBD. I don't understand why you assume we all eat poorly.
Here is a site referring to the average american diet. I simply brought it up here because we were talking about the education system in which children learn nutrition in this country. This diet is still within the parameters of healthy according to the government. I realize people on this forum generally eat healthier but I usually am simply making a statement about the eating habits of people in general. As for the other countries on this forum, places like australia and the UK now have very similar systems of food. High number of fast food, high rates of obesity etc etc. But even so people think they are eating healthy but are incorporating many processed, toxic, or deficient foods.

It seems like you, like most others, aim to just eliminate bad food. Many people think by just eliminating fried food they are eating healthy. People learn that vegetables are good for you but are rarely told why. I am suggesting that vegetables and other healthy foods help the body in a way not many people are aware of. That fruits and vegetables can substantially aid or even cure many chronic diseases. So I don't feel like I'm preaching common sense.

Gianni
10-19-2012, 07:27 PM   #43
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That fruits and vegetables can substantially aid or even cure many chronic diseases.
This is what you're trying to get at and trying to prove. Stay focused on that rather than bring up/put down/bash anything else. I don't care how other things are wrong I want to know how this is right. I want scientific studies and personal experience on how fruits and vegetables can cure chronic diseases. Are you cured yet? How long do you think it would take to cure yourself or will it take multiple generations to remove the possibility of getting Crohn's from our genes through a specific diet? Do you follow the diet you think is ideal 100%? If not, why?
10-21-2012, 03:48 PM   #44
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Hey Gianni, haven't heard from you. Just giving you a tag.
10-21-2012, 06:21 PM   #45
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I'll answer those questions in different threads that I will make soon. For now, in this thread, I want to stick to this thread's topic.

Gianni
10-22-2012, 12:30 AM   #46
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truth is, i dont understand genetics enough to fully answer the question or know what its significance would be. but i believe what your concern is whether any part of the disease, predetermined? or otherwise almost your/our destiny?

i would have to say resoundingly no, why? because of the most basic of epidemiologic data we have on crohns that points to environmental factors to be a greater influence on disease occurance. not only geographical data, but chronological data dating from 1900-present. if it were simply genetic, the disease rates wouldnt fluctuate so greatly in these stated dimensions of time and space.

that raises serious doubts as to whether it was genetically determined or not.

one interesting fact that just came to my mind is low rates in china almost the lowest documented anywhere for instance compared to the highest rates, in a country i cant recall at the moment, it is 70X lower in china thats unbelievable, i have looked over the data and apparently they have been reluctant to use western medicine until only recently , the patterns in ibd incidence directly match up with the data on the increase in frequency of using western medicine, my own interpretations of the meaning of this data, support yet again, antibiotics to play some role in the development of many cases. but antibiotics may not be required to develop crohns, they have only become a another road to developing it.
10-22-2012, 01:24 AM   #47
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I too believe antibiotics have a role here.

Gianni
10-22-2012, 01:27 AM   #48
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Antibiotics as a primary or secondary source and consumed by the sufferer and/or in previous generations?

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10-22-2012, 02:27 AM   #49
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all the above ^

Antibiotics destroy the natural immune system. The beneficial gut bacteria makes up about 80% of our immune system and the antibiotics destroy it all and allows Candida and resistant harmful bacteria to thrive. Beneficial flora also helps detox the body from heavy metals and other toxins. Beneficial flora also helps assimilate nutrients and Candida will inhibit this process so deficiencies start to pile up and other problems start.

Because Crohn's is a result of a hyper-active immune system, it is definitely something to think about.

Antibiotics are in the meats we eat, and the milk we drink. Farmers are actually now injecting cows with e coli viruses to speed up the cows metabolism so that they produce more milk. Unfortunately this produces more bacteria and pus in the milk so the farmers just throw even more antibiotics into the milk.

The food systems seems to have a problem of fixing a problem with another problem. Farmers started feeding their cattle corn because it's cheaper but corn isn't digested well by cows and started to create e coli. E coli was then found in the meat. But instead of going back to grass, the meat factories decided they'd rather bleach the meat with ammonia and throw a bunch of antibiotics in it rather than pay the few extra dollars to keep healthy cows.

Of course though primary consumption of the antibiotics would be the worst.

Personally I believe the genetic link has to do with the weakening of the genomes. My parents didn't eat well and were on plenty of antibiotics. What i find interesting is that I am the youngest child of 4 and I have a severe case of crohn's. My brother also has crohns and he is the second youngest child but his is mild to moderate. I believe that my parents genome became weaker, to the point that when they had their first two children, their genomes were still relatively healthy. But when they had my brother the genome was weaker than before at the point of conception, and when they had me (in their 30's) the genome was even weaker because the years of abuse on the body adds up (more antibiotics,hormones,Gmo's, Pesticides, etc etc as time went on).

I grew up with a pediatrician who was very trigger happy with antibiotics. Have a sinus infection? "Here are some broad spectrum antibiotics" etc etc. I believe that through the weakening of my parents' genomes and the continuing weakening of my genome through antibiotics, diet.. etc etc, I had an increased chance of developing an autoimmune disorder.

Gianni

Last edited by Gianni; 10-22-2012 at 03:26 AM.
10-22-2012, 05:55 AM   #50
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Hmm, isn't it hard to know!!
A significant part of me can't BELIEVE I have CD!
NO family Hx of IBD that I know of. An aunt on the maternal side had bad rheumatoid arthritis, aunt on the paternal side had a foot drop (mono neuritis ) following a GI infection. Sister has Meniere's Disease.
My Crohn's is relatively mild (where's some wood to touch!!?) In fact I couldn't really believe it at age 56, having been always plump and tending towards being constipated :/ (always ordered salad greens "dutifully"!)
Only useful bits to add are multiple courses of antibiotics for sinus infections 2000-2005, weight loss high protein shakes (coincided with major flare), and taking Xenical in another weight losing attempt (have since wondered about it's effect on bile salts!)
So to sum up?? A scattering of sort-of immune related contributors..
I do think these opportunities for "ideas melting pots" are an excellent opportunity to broaden the aetiological scope!.. some where in this mix will lie the answer



HD
10-22-2012, 08:26 AM   #51
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My Irish relatives from way back up to 140 years ago as far as we can trace had bowel problems, some of which brought about there death. Its the Irish side (mums side) that still has Crohns & Colitis lurking around in many of us. There were no antibiotics given then so what caused the possible IBD.
I think that we get caught up too much in blaming certain drugs or maybe lifestyle for many of todays illnesses when in fact they were around before the drugs etc.
10-22-2012, 11:00 AM   #52
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I do believe genetics plays a role but its not everything except in the case for babies then its fully genetic. Eating a poor nutrient dense diet and some genetics is the one two punch that gets most people in my opinion.
10-22-2012, 12:14 PM   #53
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Well then, I'm a mystery then. No bowel problems in either side of family as far back as i can find AND never believed in pharmaceuticals ( or took any) until i got sick and have been put on a regimen. That is confusing now, isn't it?
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10-22-2012, 07:02 PM   #54
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all the above ^
Personally I believe the genetic link has to do with the weakening of the genomes. My parents didn't eat well and were on plenty of antibiotics. What i find interesting is that I am the youngest child of 4 and I have a severe case of crohn's. My brother also has crohns and he is the second youngest child but his is mild to moderate. I believe that my parents genome became weaker, to the point that when they had their first two children, their genomes were still relatively healthy. But when they had my brother the genome was weaker than before at the point of conception, and when they had me (in their 30's) the genome was even weaker because the years of abuse on the body adds up (more antibiotics,hormones,Gmo's, Pesticides, etc etc as time went on).
Gianni

Gianni,

I like your thinking, but a genome doesn’t exactly become weaker. Let me explain.

There is no doubt that certain somatic changes in DNA occur due to the influence of external factors like pesticides, GMO’s, hormones, drugs, radiation, etc… or anything else otherwise known as a carcinogen and/or mutagen. The problem is that these types of mutations aren’t passed on from parents to children, unless of course you were cloned from somatically obtained DNA. So, unless there is something that you are not telling us about yourself, it’s unlikely that you would inherit any acquired genetic mutation that would cause you to have Crohn’s, from the exact situation you mentioned -- particularly if your parents didn’t acquire Crohn's from these mutagens. But I do not think that you are too far off the mark.

There is one other possibility, correct me if I am wrong, but I think this is what you may possibly be suggesting: If the mutations occur specifically in your parents’ germ-cells (eggs and sperm) you parents wouldn’t likely be directly affected by the mutations but their offspring would. In other words, it is conceivable that any of these aforementioned factors may have contributed to a germ-cell mutation in either your mother or father (or possibly both) which would not necessarily affect either of them but would result in a mutation in their offspring. Almost like a teratogenic affect that would be heritable from then on.

The mutations have to start somewhere, I suppose this is one possible mechanism.
10-22-2012, 07:17 PM   #55
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My Irish relatives from way back up to 140 years ago as far as we can trace had bowel problems, some of which brought about there death. Its the Irish side (mums side) that still has Crohns & Colitis lurking around in many of us. There were no antibiotics given then so what caused the possible IBD.
I think that we get caught up too much in blaming certain drugs or maybe lifestyle for many of todays illnesses when in fact they were around before the drugs etc.
One of my maternal great grandmothers was Irish, the other German Jew and my father is Norwegien/Estonian-no one had Crohn's but they did have fistulas and the cause was never determined...so who knows, really?

Both my parents abused drugs so I tend to think this is the actual cause for me, anyway.
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10-22-2012, 09:12 PM   #56
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There is one other possibility, correct me if I am wrong, but I think this is what you may possibly be suggesting: If the mutations occur specifically in your parents’ germ-cells (eggs and sperm) you parents wouldn’t likely be directly affected by the mutations but their offspring would. In other words, it is conceivable that any of these aforementioned factors may have contributed to a germ-cell mutation in either your mother or father (or possibly both) which would not necessarily affect either of them but would result in a mutation in their offspring. Almost like a teratogenic affect that would be heritable from then on.
Yes I am saying this. These mutations will and do happen continuously within the germ-cells. It is how evolution works, the parents are becoming accustomed more and more to the climate and the necessary changes will occur within these germ cells to better adapt the offspring. Possibly with a bombardment of antibiotics necessary immune system response changes occur within the germ cells (i.e. immune system needs to become more active because the parents are continuously weakening theirs.) or simply the genome or dna within the germ cells are being weakened as well. The health of sperm has been shown to be effected by diet and other environmental factors so I assume that is also weakening the traits that the offspring will get.

Gianni
10-23-2012, 02:26 AM   #57
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Yes I am saying this. These mutations will and do happen continuously within the germ-cells. It is how evolution works, the parents are becoming accustomed more and more to the climate and the necessary changes will occur within these germ cells to better adapt the offspring. Possibly with a bombardment of antibiotics necessary immune system response changes occur within the germ cells (i.e. immune system needs to become more active because the parents are continuously weakening theirs.) or simply the genome or dna within the germ cells are being weakened as well. The health of sperm has been shown to be effected by diet and other environmental factors so I assume that is also weakening the traits that the offspring will get.

Gianni
Gianni,

This is what I was getting at earlier when it looked like you were driven to do some research on companies like Monsanto. No matter what kind of patent protection they have for their products the data is available for everyone to see. You don’t have to worry there is a ton of information, you’ll be surprised at what you find, that is if you are still interested in researching it. Here is one link with an interesting story, it also has a bunch of related links that you might find interesting as well.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/monsant...-farmers/12432

Monsanto is a target for Grenpeace, which is why I suggested it. Greenpeace has a long history of protesting Monsanto and they have done lot of the leg work to find lots of juicy information if you care to look on their website as well. I am sure you know that Monsanto is not the only company but is a big one that contributes many of the questionable products that you and a lot of us are also concerned with. For example, Roundup, Celebrex and Nutrasweet are/were just a few of their products sold directly to the consumer. However, it's interesting to see which commercial companies are Monstanto's biggest customers and how many of those companies actually use Monsanto's products to make their own products and redistributed commercially to be bought by other companies who incorporated them into stuff someone might come in contact with or ate every day. No matter where you are in the world, it would be hard to avoid Monsanto.

Someone who was health conscious could avoid putting Nutrasweet (aspartame) in their herbal tea. However, they might unwittingly sweeten it with brand of all natural honey that is labeled "organic" thinking that it is safe to consume until they visit the honey producer and noticed that honeybees visit a nearby farm crop just sprayed with Monsanto pesticide. It's crazy how hard it is to avoid their products, they are ubiquitous and their stock price shows how well they are doing screwing people and getting away with it.

Even though germ-cell mutation is a viable mechanism for introducing heritable mutations into the human genome, it's also important to approach this with as much objectivity as possible. For example, if we blindly blame Monsanto or other companies for contributing to diseases or genetic mutations that cause diseases A,B and C it wont make a difference unless the data is organized data presented sensibly to convince enough people, or at least the right people to make necessary changes. Good luck.

Anyway, one of the biggest challenges might be in differentiating between familial occurrences of an inherited disease, from newly occurring mutations. Especially with diseases like IBD that have such a week familial link, it’s hard to pin point how what triggered them since there are so many genes that can be responsible. We can look at all the people that have responded to just to this thread alone, some have no other family members with any autoimmune problems and others have multiple family members with IBD.

For what it's worth, evolution has provided humans with a pretty good mechanism to weed out even germ-cell errors. This is evident from the progeny of the Japanese parents who survived Nagasaki and Hiroshima and the relatively low genetic problems they have. The problem is that a lot of time needs to pass before data can be collected that means anything. It’s too soon yet to measure the total effects of germ-cell mutations from the Chernobyl disaster but there might be a better reference in the future because apparently the Hungarians have maintained a registry for inherited diseases for years which helps to identify a benchmark http://jmg.bmj.com/content/25/1/2.full.pdf

Anyway, I am glad you started this thread, it was very informative, but I am a bit confused about something. I am not sure that I understand exactly what you mean when you use the word “weak” or “weakening the traits” when you are referring to genes or a genome. A weak genome generally refers to a smaller pool of genes, as in a small population of a castaways stuck on an isolated island somewhere -- and when one of them dies, the gene pool weakens further. However, if larger boat filled with people that have a myriad of genetic disorders shipwrecks on that same island causing the population to quadruple the gene pool would be strengthened because it would be larger, even if they only eat GMO food and wash it down with pesticides. I am not sure if you are using the word “weak” to describe mutated genes or if you are suggesting else. Can you clarify a little?
10-23-2012, 03:49 AM   #58
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Monsanto is a target for Grenpeace, which is why I suggested it. Greenpeace has a long history of protesting Monsanto and they have done lot of the leg work to find lots of juicy information if you care to look on their website as well. I am sure you know that Monsanto is not the only company but is a big one that contributes many of the questionable products that you and a lot of us are also concerned with. For example, Roundup, Celebrex and Nutrasweet are/were just a few of their products sold directly to the consumer. However, it's interesting to see which commercial companies are Monstanto's biggest customers and how many of those companies actually use Monsanto's products to make their own products and redistributed commercially to be bought by other companies who incorporated them into stuff someone might come in contact with or ate every day. No matter where you are in the world, it would be hard to avoid Monsanto.

Someone who was health conscious could avoid putting Nutrasweet (aspartame) in their herbal tea. However, they might unwittingly sweeten it with brand of all natural honey that is labeled "organic" thinking that it is safe to consume until they visit the honey producer and noticed that honeybees visit a nearby farm crop just sprayed with Monsanto pesticide. It's crazy how hard it is to avoid their products, they are ubiquitous and their stock price shows how well they are doing screwing people and getting away with it.
Well fortunately California has a ballot initiative this election that will label GMO products and if it passes it will be the first of a chain reaction that will hit Monsanto and other Gmo companies very hard. Other states will follow suite if California starts to label GMO products and shareholders will lose faith in the company.


Anyway, I am glad you started this thread, it was very informative, but I am a bit confused about something. I am not sure that I understand exactly what you mean when you use the word “weak” or “weakening the traits” when you are referring to genes or a genome. A weak genome generally refers to a smaller pool of genes, as in a small population of a castaways stuck on an isolated island somewhere -- and when one of them dies, the gene pool weakens further. However, if larger boat filled with people that have a myriad of genetic disorders shipwrecks on that same island causing the population to quadruple the gene pool would be strengthened because it would be larger, even if they only eat GMO food and wash it down with pesticides. I am not sure if you are using the word “weak” to describe mutated genes or if you are suggesting else. Can you clarify a little?
Now you are confusing me lol. From what I understand, a genome refers to an organisms complete set of genes and DNA. Basically a genome refers to the entirety of an organisms hereditary information. Or it basically is what makes up the species... if that makes sense.

I think I may understand what you are referring to. A genome, I supposed, could be thought more specifically towards a population. For example if i say the Vilcabamba people of Ecuador have a stronger genome than the people of New York. I am not referring to the size of the population but rather the health of the organisms' "make up".

So basically when i refer to someone weakening their genome, I am referring to them weakening their genes and basically what makes them a human.

Did that answer your question?

Last edited by Gianni; 10-23-2012 at 04:08 AM.
10-23-2012, 04:21 PM   #59
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Now you are confusing me lol. From what I understand, a genome refers to an organisms complete set of genes and DNA. Basically a genome refers to the entirety of an organisms hereditary information. Or it basically is what makes up the species... if that makes sense.

I think I may understand what you are referring to. A genome, I supposed, could be thought more specifically towards a population. For example if i say the Vilcabamba people of Ecuador have a stronger genome than the people of New York. I am not referring to the size of the population but rather the health of the organisms' "make up".

So basically when i refer to someone weakening their genome, I am referring to them weakening their genes and basically what makes them a human.

Did that answer your question?

By definition a strong genome means a large pool of genes. The variety of genetic "make up" that you are referring to is determined by specific Single Nucleotide Polymorphism (SNPs). So in the example you just cited, the inference that was made about a smaller gene pool of people being stronger was actually incorrect. It's misleading to describe individual genes as becoming "weaker" or "stronger" Individual gene's don't weaken or strengthen, they mutate. It's the susceptibility to mutation that you are referring to, not the strength of genome.

I believe the point you're trying to convey is the Vilcabamba people have the ability to resist genetic changes or mutation compared to New Yorkers, which is probably correct. But lets try to compare apples to apples. Vilcamabas live in a stress free environment, the climate is consistent all year and they are surrounded by foods that have some of the strongest anti-oxidant properties in the world. This can offer any genome a lot of protection and is the same reason that Greenpeace likes to go after companies like Monsanto. The Vilcabamas are still human just like you and me. I am willing to guess that if they changed places with New Yorkers they would be susceptible to the same genetic fate as their bodies adapt.

Here is link that you might find handy if you haven't already seen it. Actually, this guys website is chock-full of knowledge

http://www.khanacademy.org/science/b...-what-are-snps
10-23-2012, 08:31 PM   #60
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By definition a strong genome means a large pool of genes.
What definition? In biology a genome refers to the organisms complete genetic make up.. hints the words genes and chromosome combined to make genome. Even the dictionary has this definition.

I believe the point you're trying to convey is the Vilcabamba people have the ability to resist genetic changes or mutation compared to New Yorkers, which is probably correct. But lets try to compare apples to apples. Vilcamabas live in a stress free environment, the climate is consistent all year and they are surrounded by foods that have some of the strongest anti-oxidant properties in the world. This can offer any genome a lot of protection and is the same reason that Greenpeace likes to go after companies like Monsanto. The Vilcabamas are still human just like you and me. I am willing to guess that if they changed places with New Yorkers they would be susceptible to the same genetic fate as their bodies adapt.
I wasn't making a statement here lol, I was giving you an example of what I thought you meant. Obviously i realize it is because of the environment. Read the context of my last post and you will understand what I was saying. I picked New york out of thin air. I could have just as easily have said Mickey mouse has a stronger genome than Donald Duck... Don't read into this and say it isn't fair comparing the genomes of a mouse and a duck...

Gianni

Last edited by Gianni; 10-23-2012 at 11:13 PM.
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