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11-30-2012, 03:40 PM   #61
muppet
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Because it has been mismanaged. Read the whole article I linked you to.

And the book is amazing.
I can tell that this is obviously an issue that is very near and dear to you, and that you are very likely to be much more knowledgable than I am about agriculture. My failed little raised bed garden is testimony to that.

I've read the article, and I have some questions about it and issues with it. I hope that I didn't sound flip when I said I'd sincerely like to read about it, because I was totally in earnest. I hope you'll take this post in the spirit of respectful debate that it's intended in.

The article talks a lot about local populations and the issues they've faced in trying to farm the land despite the local climate issues, most notably flooding, and how those local populations can overcome these issues using ancestral farming techniques that have been proven to solve many of the same problems that contemporary farmers in the region face. What it doesn't address is the concern I raised: whether this will scale to a large first world nation like the US. Firstly, we don't own (at least publicly) the Amazon rainforest, and to try to recreate such an ecosystem in North America would be nearly impossible. Now, lessons learned from this technique might be adapted in efforts to more effectly farm the land "with the grain" of the local climate and terrain conditions, but the article doesn't address any of that. Similarly, it doesn't address regions with the population size and density of the United States.

The article also has one or two phrases that raise red flags for me. It talks about using an aquatic plant to "purify" the water in the irrigation/retention ditches, but doesn't expound on this at all. What do they mean? Do they mean de-nitrification, filtration via biological magnification, what mechanism for purifying are they talking about? If they're talking about literally removing toxic compounds from the water, unless as part of a larger biological cycle and not biological magnification, how is it then that the plants become effective fertilizer when transferred to the soil? To be fair, the scope of the article is probably intended to be high level for readers of this site (magazine?).

Does the book address these mechanisms of purification/fertilization? Does it address redemption of the soil (ie, are they relying on the floodwaters to bring in new nutrients and base elements (maybe the char mentioned earlier is how they're addressing this?))? Does the book address scaling this to larger, denser, culturally diverse populations? What about adaptation of this technique or similar techniques to other climes, where the flood mechanic just isn't present at all or with much less regularity (something I would argue is probably necessary to make this technique very relevant to the US)?

I'm really not trying to be beligerent, I would really love to come away from this thread with a coherent agenda to address the woefully broken agricultural industry in the US. Maybe we need a new thread for this so that poor Stephen can have his back. :-)
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11-30-2012, 03:56 PM   #62
David
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Heheh, yeah. I think we'd need a new thread as we could really get into this I invite you to my sustainability thread. Feel fee to repost what you just wrote in that thread if you'd like to discuss it. If not, no worries as this is off topic

And no, you don't come across disrespectful or belligerent. They're very fair questions.
11-30-2012, 06:49 PM   #63
Kev
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You know, one of the things that was really frustrating early on for me was that the so called 'experts' couldn't reach some sort of accord... harmony.. agreement.. whatever; on whether diet played a part in IBD... either onset, maintenance, avoidance, tolerance... whatever you want to call it. One GI would tell me diet was extremely important, another would say that.. 'in his experience' (decades) he'd never witnessed diet helping in any way AND there were no studies that iron clad confirmed it played a part. He told me to eat whatever I felt like... it wouldn't make any difference. Might make me feel better.... you know, comfort food. One of my own biases from way back was that I took with a grain of salt anything a young, self proclaimed expert would tell me. Figured I would revise that... include all so called experts... regardless of age or lack thereof. Went to see a nutritionist who specialized in IBD/IBS. Most of what she taught/told me was pretty much just plain common sense. But there was a lot of 'stuff' that was outside my knowledge base. I started reading labels, looking at ingredients, and started keeping a daily diary... intake, output, consequences, all that stuff. Just doing that paid off... I was lactose intolerant... Crohns made it worse (assumption) OR it got worse independantly/simultaneously/coincidentally.. who knows. But, I went on a quest... and found lactose in places I never would have looked. And eliminated it ASAP! And things improved. Immensely! But it didn't cure me... it didn't control my disease. I looked at the SCD. I was desparate! Nothing was working, and I was going downhill in my fight with IBD like a theme park ride. I contemplated the SCD diet, but I also knew that I couldn't... just me personally... couldn't attain it, or maintain it, and a part of me also felt... rightly or wrongly.. that I didn't want to permanently sacrifice that part of my life... I think I characterized it like eating like a monk... to stave off this disease. I'd search heaven and earth till I found something else, before I'd let the disease change my life for me forever. I dunno... guess I thought going SCD or whatever was more like a stalemate than a victory. If I hadn't found LDN, if it hadn't worked, then I might have reconsidered my position... but if I had... capitulated????... I don't know if I would have been truly happy. I would have made peace with it, ... but that is just me... not happy.

OK, enough rambling monologues for one night. Anyone on here, regardless of whatever form of intestinal disease/issue they have, KNOWS, (no matter what the experts say OR don't say) that foods affect us. A sensible diet is key for everyone, even more so if you have a chronic condition (health) AND it may be absolutely possible to contain/maintain a healthy condition if you find a diet that accomodates whatever ails you, and maintain it. There is the rub.... tho the list of side effects is fairly moderate if you go this route.
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11-30-2012, 10:38 PM   #64
Irene3
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Gianni- fair enough I didn't diet for years. I tried a green tea and garlic cleanse, and no medication, eating healthy stir fries to beggin with, within weeks I couldn't eat anything, and ended up in hospital with crp- high as can be- in the hundreds.

Muppet- I couldn't agree more with your posts. To say diet can cure crohns, in my opinion, is completely wrong. I researched- wont drink chlorinated water, thinking its that. Then probiotics, thinking its bacteria- fungal- that causes crohns. While my gi kept insisting that its simply a chronic illness which needs medication. When I ignored him, I got more sick. So there is nothing that can change my mind, as far as needing meds for crohns, and that there is no cure, unless a doctor himself was to say - a or b- can/could cure it. Until then, I'm glad that we have things such as humira etc to help with symptoms, and put many in remission. I believe if they ever find a cure- it will be medicinal. But that's just my opinion.

One of you wrote about how being in remission, on diet alone- long term, caused a fistula. That was my initial point. That its great if diet works for anyone, but I think without medication, long term, strictures and ulceration, are common in anyone eating a lot of fiber with Crohn's disease.
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