Share Facebook
Crohn's Disease Forum » Diet, Fitness, and Supplements » Ketogenic diets, any risks?


 
08-09-2017, 05:37 AM   #91
hugh
Senior Member
 
hugh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011

My Support Groups:
you might like this one too, let me know...
https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2017/...alth-dopamine/
__________________
'Liberation can only be gained by practice, never by discussion'
SN Goenka
08-09-2017, 09:39 AM   #92
Crohn2357
Senior Member
 
Crohn2357's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013

My Support Groups:
Thanks for replying. I will look into the links.

--- --- --- --- ---

Fuck it, if nothing's going to work, I will go ketogenic...

Just to see if it's going to work or not. I'm sick of this relentless fatigue, low bp, not being able to consume carbs etc...

The problem is (apart from all the known and discussed issues with ketogenic diet): the only fat for me to eat is tail fat. It's similar to lard, and it's high in cholesterol.
I can't find MCT oil or coconut oil in this country, so this is my only fat source. I can't eat butter or ghee (casein problems) so they're not an option.

Since (if I ever do it) this is going to be a short term "trial" for me, I don't think the amount of cholesterol will kill me.

I'm listening to the last podcast you posted, after this I'll move on to the cholesterol article and podcasts.

Last edited by Crohn2357; 08-09-2017 at 10:24 AM.
08-10-2017, 01:47 AM   #93
hugh
Senior Member
 
hugh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011

My Support Groups:
Thanks for replying. I will look into the links.
Fuck it, if nothing's going to work, I will go ketogenic...

Just to see if it's going to work or not. I'm sick of this relentless fatigue, low bp, not being able to consume carbs etc...

The problem is (apart from all the known and discussed issues with ketogenic diet): the only fat for me to eat is tail fat. It's similar to lard, and it's high in cholesterol.
I can't find MCT oil or coconut oil in this country, so this is my only fat source. I can't eat butter or ghee (casein problems) so they're not an option.

Since (if I ever do it) this is going to be a short term "trial" for me, I don't think the amount of cholesterol will kill me.

I'm listening to the last podcast you posted, after this I'll move on to the cholesterol article and podcasts.
Funny that, tail fat....
i get sheep fat and render it to cook with.
lots and lots of sheep fat , and lots of coconut fat......

going keto for a while is probably a good thing. It is long term that can be the problem.
Keep in mind some people find LDL goes way up on a low carb diet so it is a concern, but not a biggie.
Educate yourself and you won't be frightened...
"Since cholesterol is usually discussed in the context of disease and atherosclerosis, let us look at the blood vessels. Their inside walls are covered by a layer of cells called the endothelium. Any damaging agent we are exposed to will finish up in our bloodstream, whether it is a toxic chemical, an infectious organism, a free radical or anything else. Once such an agent is in the blood, what is it going to attack first? The endothelium, of course. The endothelium immediately sends a message to the liver. Whenever our liver receives a signal that a wound has been inflicted upon the endothelium somewhere in our vascular system, it gets into gear and sends cholesterol to the site of the damage in a shuttle, called LDL-cholesterol. Because this cholesterol travels from the liver to the wound in the form of LDL, our “science,” in its wisdom calls LDL “bad” cholesterol. When the wound heals and the cholesterol is removed, it travels back to the liver in the form of HDLcholesterol (high-density lipoprotein cholesterol). Because this cholesterol travels away from the artery back to the liver, our misguided “science” calls it “good” cholesterol. This is like calling an ambulance travelling from the hospital to the patient a “bad ambulance,” and the one travelling from the patient back to the hospital a “good ambulance.” "
https://www.westonaprice.org/health-...friend-or-foe/

one of my doctors tried to force me onto statins because of my total cholesterol numbers, fucking brainwashed idiot.
a bit of research and i work out that i an at the absolute lowest all-cause mortality point in this graph.....
https://renegadewellness.files.wordp...lity-chart.pdf
I know i could find a website telling you the earth is flat if i looked, so make up your own mind, but start with the chris masterjohn podcasts because he knows his shit....


more
CHOLESTEROL AND ALL-CAUSE MORTALITY
"Without exception all-cause mortality is highest in those with the lowest levels of TC."
http://vernerwheelock.com/179-choles...use-mortality/

People with high cholesterol live the longest
" At least fifteen studies found that total mortality was inversely associated with either total or LDL-cholesterol, or both. This means that it is actually much better to have high than to have low cholesterol if you want to live to be very old."
http://www.ravnskov.nu/2015/12/27/myth-9/

Last edited by hugh; 08-10-2017 at 03:23 AM.
08-10-2017, 04:32 AM   #94
Crohn2357
Senior Member
 
Crohn2357's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013

My Support Groups:
I listened to all the podcasts. The one about methylation is interesting but the podcast is a bit verbose for my taste.

I had planned to make my doctor check if I have MTHFR (I always read this one differently, lol) gene mutation or not, also my homocysteine and serum folate levels. Those are definitely important.

I'll also tell him to check my adrenal gland secretions (like adrenaline, noradrenaline, cortisol and DHEA) because they too can cause low blood pressure.

The cholesterol podcasts are absolutely amazing! I took notes of them while listening.
I downloaded them to be able to listen in the future.

I'll print out all the articles (can't read long articles on the PC screen thanks to chronic migraines...) to read them later. Those are valuable, thanks for posting...

I'll either go full ketogenic or very low carb paleo (I'll try this one first). I'll post an update in the future.

Edit: The amount of saturated fat you consume surprised me, I guess you really believe in what you're doing. This gives me some more confidence in consuming them.

To avoid oxidizing those fats, you may try microwaving your food. That's how I mostly cook my meals. I even slice the tail fat and put those thin slices onto meatballs. This way the tail fat cooks nicely but still keeps its solid form - and not get oxidized.

Last edited by Crohn2357; 08-10-2017 at 02:51 PM.
08-11-2017, 04:19 AM   #95
hugh
Senior Member
 
hugh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011

My Support Groups:
To avoid oxidizing those fats, you may try microwaving your food. That's how I mostly cook my meals. I even slice the tail fat and put those thin slices onto meatballs. This way the tail fat cooks nicely but still keeps its solid form - and not get oxidized.
Im no expert but i always believed that the good thing about saturated fats is that they can stand high heat.
Saturated fats don't start to oxidise until you get to their smoke point.

How to Eat More Fat
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/how-to-eat-more-fat/
The Definitive Guide to Fats
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/fats/
The Definitive Guide to Oils
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/healthy-oils/

polyunsaturated fats oxidise easily. (like vegetable seed oils)
"Polyunsaturated fatty acids contain two or more double bonds, and it is these double bonds which are prone to oxidation. Consequently, the risk of oxidation increases with the number of double bonds present in the fatty acid"
http://www.1life63.com/en/omega-in-y...tion-of-lipids
08-12-2017, 08:49 PM   #96
Crohn2357
Senior Member
 
Crohn2357's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013

My Support Groups:
Double post.

Last edited by Crohn2357; 08-12-2017 at 09:11 PM.
08-12-2017, 08:57 PM   #97
Crohn2357
Senior Member
 
Crohn2357's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013

My Support Groups:
hugh, I think today I found out the reason why I've been suffering from low bp and its negative effects :

Ready?


It's the paleo diet.

Yes.

. A recent CDC report indicates that the top 10 types of food that contribute the most sodium to the American diet include bread and rolls, pizza, sandwiches, pasta mixed dishes, meat mixed dishes, and savory snacks. All things you won't eat if you go paleo(ish). Yes, there are some higher sodium paleo foods like cold cuts, cured meats, and cheeses. But avoiding bread alone is going to drop your sodium intake substantially! Take out processed fast food and snack foods and it drops even further. As long as you're not eating an everyday diet of bacon for breakfast, cold cuts for lunch and thai curries for dinner, you're probably OK.
From: http://freshhabits.blogspot.com/2012...ium-paleo.html

The results of that report:
Results
Mean daily sodium consumption was 3,266 mg. Approximately 44% of sodium consumption came from foods in the following 10 categories: bread and rolls (7.4%), cold cuts/cured meats (5.1%), pizza (4.9%), fresh and processed poultry (4.5%), soups (4.3%), sandwiches like cheeseburgers (4.0%),†† cheese (3.8%), pasta mixed dishes (e.g., spaghetti with meat sauce) (3.3%), meat mixed dishes (e.g., meat loaf with tomato sauce) (3.2%), and savory snacks (e.g., chips and pretzels) (3.1%) (Table 1). Whether analyzed by age group, sex, or racial-ethnic population, the five leading food categories contributing to sodium consumption almost always were among the top 10 ranked categories (Table 1 and Table 2). Exceptions included frankfurters and sausages, which were the third highest contributor among children aged 2–5 years (5.4% of sodium consumption) and the fifth highest among non-Hispanic blacks (5.0%). Among Mexican-Americans, burritos, tacos, and tamales were the top contributor (6.8%), and tortillas were the fifth contributor (4.7%).
Most sodium consumed (65.2%) came from foods obtained from a store (e.g., supermarket or convenience store). Restaurants were the source of 24.8% of the sodium consumed, including 13.6% from restaurants with fast food/pizza and 11.2% from restaurants with service by a waiter/waitress. The remaining 10.0% was from other specific sources (Table 3). Among children aged 2–19 years, 8.1% of sodium consumed came from foods obtained from school cafeterias or child care centers. Among both persons aged 2–19 years and ≥20 years, mean sodium density was significantly greater for foods and beverages obtained from fast food/pizza or other restaurants versus stores (Table 3).
A large percentage of participants ate foods from one or more of the 10 ranked food categories during at least one of the two 24-hour dietary recall days; 79.9% reported eating bread and rolls, 56.2% ate cheese, 50.7% ate savory snacks, and 48.3% ate poultry (Table 4). Among the other six food categories, the percentage that ate foods from those ranged from 17.6% to 33.9%. Among food sources, fast food/pizza restaurants accounted for 51.2% of the sodium consumed from pizza, 26.6% from poultry, and 84.5% from sandwiches.
Wanna read more?
https://www.theguardian.com/science/...-eat-more-salt
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/03/op...pagewanted=all
https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...e-war-on-salt/

https://chriskresser.com/shaking-up-...t-restriction/
In short, there is a healthy range of salt consumption for most people. When eating a whole foods diet, most people tend to consume an appropriate amount of salt simply due to an innate preference for saltiness. In fact, the consumption of salt around the world for over two centuries has remained in the range of 1.5 to three teaspoons per day, which appears to hold the lowest risk for disease.

More...
http://forum.whole30.com/topic/10367...lood-pressure/

“Add salt! Seriously. Sea salt. Be liberal.
I had the same thing a few months ago when I was knee-deep in Paleo eating. Eliminating processed foods greatly reduces the amount of salt we eat, and I was never a person to salt my food prior to eating it.
My BP is naturally low. I hover around 90/60, mostly without symptoms, for as long as I can recall. My resting heart rate has gotten as low as 44 in bed (I am a long term cardio person). I just happened to be at the doctor's office for another issue one of the days I wasn't feeling well, and my BP was about 80/50 with heart rate 52 (that was up and walking around). I felt shaky and shocky.
Salt doesn't immediately help, but it didn't take long to make a difference.”

“I also have low blood pressure and to avoid these side effects, I've found the single most helpful thing was to add sea salt to every meal. I also keep packets of electrolytes (I useEmergency's electromix) on me.”

“Agree with Tom and Pam. Salt is hugely important if you're coming off from eating processed food a month ago.
I've had low bp in the past and felt quite light-headed.
Upping the salt and starches has helped a lot.
I take a good sized pinch of salt every night before bed.
Hope you feel better soon.”

https://paleoleap.com/salt-and-a-paleo-diet/

https://www.reddit.com/r/Paleo/comme...m_that_is_all/

Before I started reading at all about health (much before paleo) I cut down dramatically on my salt. It made my fatigue issues so much worse. Adding salt back in gave me a boost of energy, and it made it easier to think.
Oh yeah, another thing, after fat, that media and doctors try to bash with everything they have. If you eat clean, meaning you cook for yourself, no fast food, you are probably short on sodium by large margin.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Paleo/comme...u_gary_taubes/

Im a liberal douser of salt onto boiled greens and always justified it by eating a lot less processed food which are huge carriers of salt. People i eat with always tell me i eat too much salt but my blood pressure is always good.
I suspect people who dont add salt get a lot of salt from processed foods which they dont know about.
Anyway, interesting article.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Paleo/comme..._and_potatoes/

By avoiding processed foods, you avoid salt. However, you need salt and your body will horde it if you don't get enough. Your urine and tears will stop being salty (which decreases lubrication) and you will feel lousy (and go eat straight salt and feel amazing the next day like I did). It's a bad idea to not add salt. So no, don't avoid salt. It's a myth that less is better (I've tested it and you can too if you want). Your body will self-regulate.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Paleo/comme...rease_risk_of/
This has nothing to do with Paleo. We still salt our foods, we just don't get an insane amount from processed junk. Durp.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Paleo/comme..._if_no_how_do/

https://www.reddit.com/r/Paleo/comme...rmful_this_is/

This is a good thread. I never add salt to food, because I just plain up forget. My blood pressure has been realllyy loww lately. I'm literally snacking on salt right now.
I once read somewhere that someone following the SAD gets only 10% of their sodium intake from whatever comes out of a salt shaker, and the rest comes from processed and/or prepackaged foods.
Since I no longer eat any processed/prepackaged foods (very few exceptions such as bacon, canned coconut milk, carton almond milk, and home-made cured meats), I've become very liberal with my Himalayan-salt-filled salt shaker.
So don't be afraid of the salt! =)
Edit: I wrote this reply before OP edited the links into his post, but I still stand behind what I say.
A few years ago my mother started getting these weird seizures, at first the doctors had no idea what was causing it. After multiple incidents(one seizure happened when she was driving, and she ended up in the ditch(unharmed)) and a week long hospitalization, they finally figured out that she didnt eat enough salt. She didnt eat paleo, but her diet wasnt bad either, she didnt eat a lot of processed foods, sugar, fried foods or refined grains, and ate plenty of vegetables, fruits, meat, fish, whole grains, basically paleo+whole grains. The only thing she had to change was to add salt to every meal, now its been 5 years without any seizures.
I know I have trouble with my salt intake and feel super lethargic and just blah when my sodium is to low. I fix this buy dipping cucumber slices in garlic salt. Yum Yum. Super salty but it solves the problem for me.
----------------------------- ----------------------------- -----------------------------

I think I made the point somewhat clear, ha?

I thought I've been getting enough salt from my diet; but apparently I was wrong. When I think about all the foods I've stopped eating after going AIP, it makes perfect sense.

I experimented with eating more salt today. The result seems good. My bp is increased (I've a bp monitor in my house) and I feel better.

I feel hopeful with this...

I've quoted so many things in this post, because there may be other paleo followers that have the same problem, and this post may help some of them.
08-12-2017, 09:02 PM   #98
hugh
Senior Member
 
hugh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011

My Support Groups:
Could be, could well be.
It isn't on my radar because I've always been a natural sea salt person and when I went paleo i was already eating almost zero processed foods, and only organic beards (and pastries).
My salt intake didn't drop by going paleo.

So, slowly take salt up and see what happens.
08-12-2017, 09:35 PM   #99
Crohn2357
Senior Member
 
Crohn2357's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013

My Support Groups:
Ok, I'll post an update in the future.
08-13-2017, 02:40 AM   #100
hugh
Senior Member
 
hugh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011

My Support Groups:
Edit: The amount of saturated fat you consume surprised me, I guess you really believe in what you're doing. This gives me some more confidence in consuming them.
worth a read, bit on the angry side....

Why Coconut Oil is Better than Vegetable Oil

"........In fact, the AHA executive leading the charge against coconut oil is the same guy that used to run marketing for Kentucky Fried Chicken and other fast-food chains......."
https://blog.bulletproof.com/why-coc...ble-oil/#ref-2
08-13-2017, 11:41 AM   #101
Crohn2357
Senior Member
 
Crohn2357's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013

My Support Groups:
I've been doing a somewhat extensive calculation on the carbohydrate compositions and energy values of various "safe carb" sources I've eaten so far, based on each of their different effects on my health on different quantities in different times. To find out how much carbohydrate I should consume.

Going low carb, for my case, was a wrong move. Due to my extremely restricted diet, I don't have enough fat sources to consume, so it's not really possible for me to reach ketosis. What happens in my case is that instead of using fat, my body uses protein as the primary energy source. It's a common pitfall in keto diets; but in my case it's more or less inevitable. I need carbs to be my main source of energy, this much is clear to me.

I found out that I need to eat around 200 grams of carbs in a day, in order to increase my blood pressure (this is my hypothesis; but it's well known that low carb diets lower blood pressure through different mechanisms), my energy, and my weight.

This quantity is compatible with the suggestions of the leading paleo websites.

I should be getting 900 calories from the carbs I eat.

I had reduced my carb intake in the first place because it worsened the problems associated with low blood pressure for me. It's because when one eats a meal, large volumes of blood goes directly to the GI system, and this, in turn increases the severity of the low bp problems. It doesn't cause a problem if your blood pressure is not low; it's when it's low that it causes problems...

Now, what I'm going to do:
1- Eat more salt consistently.
2- Drink even more water.
3- Eat more carbs (around 200 grams in a day)

Let's see what's going to happen.

Last edited by Crohn2357; 08-13-2017 at 12:19 PM.
08-14-2017, 04:36 AM   #102
Crohn2357
Senior Member
 
Crohn2357's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013

My Support Groups:
Feeling better since yesterday. Increasing the salt intake gave me a much longer duration of the feeling of fullness. I also urinate more, and have more energy - though not quite the quality I want it to be yet... I'll wait patiently.

hugh, do you monitor your blood pressure? If so, how's it?

Another question: do you feel exhausted after eating white rice? Heart palpitations? Even a little, distinct from your experiences with the other carbs?

I hypothesized that my reaction to white rice in particular may be related to its high glycemic index. Not sure, but I don't have any other explanation.

Another thing: Whenever I eat chicken, I get extremely sleepy. I've read that it's the L-tryptophan in the chickens that causes this issue. I promised myself to never eat chicken again haha... It has such a powerful effect. A curious thing.

Edit: I wonder if there is any way to counter this effect of rice?

Maybe the exhaustive effects of eating rice has always been related to my low blood pressure. Maybe, now that I'm eating more salt, I will handle it better. I'll have to try it out.

Last edited by Crohn2357; 08-14-2017 at 12:13 PM.
08-17-2017, 02:59 AM   #103
hugh
Senior Member
 
hugh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011

My Support Groups:
blood pressure fine at regular dr. visits....
I'm fine with rice, but don't eat a lot of it (have large amount and then none for a week...)

So, i'm guessing the problem isn't the glycemic index, it's the glycemic load (GI x quantity)

Smaller amounts of rice with more fat will buffer absorption.

If it were me i would try...
- rice dishes where the rice is fried in fat/oil before adding water (pilau, risotto, etc)
- smaller amounts and eat with fatty lamb,

might help, might not.....

this is interesting, (not really related but interesting) it's doing the rounds at the moment..
- cooking rice and refrigerating increases the amount of resistant starch which is a good thing, but apparently this goes even further, decreasing GI and upping RS even further.....
might work with other fats, but still needs refrigeration to turn to RS
Simple cooking changes make healthier rice
https://www.chemistryworld.com/news/...e/8386.article
Scientists Discover a Simple Way to Cook Rice That Could Halve The Calories
https://www.sciencealert.com/scienti...e-the-calories
08-17-2017, 03:43 AM   #104
Crohn2357
Senior Member
 
Crohn2357's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013

My Support Groups:

Smaller amounts of rice with more fat will buffer absorption.

If it were me i would try...
- rice dishes where the rice is fried in fat/oil before adding water (pilau, risotto, etc)
- smaller amounts and eat with fatty lamb,
I've tried these, no help.

this is interesting, (not really related but interesting) it's doing the rounds at the moment..
- cooking rice and refrigerating increases the amount of resistant starch which is a good thing, but apparently this goes even further, decreasing GI and upping RS even further.....
might work with other fats, but still needs refrigeration to turn to RS
Simple cooking changes make healthier rice
https://www.chemistryworld.com/news/...e/8386.article
Scientists Discover a Simple Way to Cook Rice That Could Halve The Calories
https://www.sciencealert.com/scienti...e-the-calories

yeah, that's interesting I'll keep in mind.

I think I may have found another cause for my low blood pressure.

I've been taking propolis tincture for more than a year now. I've suspected it might be causing this issue, and turns out that it really has that kind of effect.

http://thenaturalshopper.com/resourc...-pressure.html

https://www.honeycolony.com/article/...s-of-propolis/

“2. Propolis Lowers Blood Pressure
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22471835 [Role of propolis on tyrosine hydroxylase activity and blood pressure in nitric oxide synthase-inhibited hypertensive rats.]
Nitric oxide is a very important substance for healthy hearts.
The inner lining of your blood vessels use nitric oxide to signal the surrounding smooth muscles to relax, thus resulting in vasodilation (the widening of blood vessels) and increased blood flow.
Reduction in the bioavailability of nitric oxide plays a significant role in the development of high blood pressure. Without it, you’d have a heart attack. There is an enzyme called Tyrosine hydroxylase (or TH for short) that limits that amount of nitric oxide you can produce.
Researchers had a hunch that propolis could decrease TH and in turn, lower blood pressure. So they took a bunch of rats and fed them something called nitro-l-arginine methyl ester for 15 days, to produce high blood pressure. They then fed the rats propolis for the last five days.
What they found after doing this was that propolis decreased TH activity in the rats. As a result, they suggested that propolis may help modulate blood pressure.”

I stopped taking propolis and won't take it for another two days, then I'll take a much lower dose of it. I'll see what's going to happen, will give you an update.

My hypothesis is that the reason why I get exhausted and get heart palpitations after eating rice is related to my low blood pressure. If I can solve this low bp issue, I think I may be able to eat rice without having these problems...

Last edited by Crohn2357; 08-18-2017 at 02:10 AM.
08-17-2017, 01:49 PM   #105
Crohn2357
Senior Member
 
Crohn2357's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013

My Support Groups:
BTW, have you tried L-Glutamine yet? I may try it next month after a resection surgery, wondering your experiences (if any).
08-19-2017, 08:15 AM   #106
Crohn2357
Senior Member
 
Crohn2357's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013

My Support Groups:
Whoa, just stumbled across these guys. They're eating their foods raw - even animal foods.

I'd like to eat my meat raw; but I'm afraid it would be dangerous to do so.

Edit - Here's a video on Youtube: My Raw Meat Breakfast. Interesting.

Last edited by Crohn2357; 08-19-2017 at 05:27 PM.
08-19-2017, 07:04 PM   #107
hugh
Senior Member
 
hugh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011

My Support Groups:
Whoa, just stumbled across these guys. They're eating their foods raw - even animal foods.

I'd like to eat my meat raw; but I'm afraid it would be dangerous to do so.

Edit - Here's a video on Youtube: My Raw Meat Breakfast. Interesting.
my view.... just no......
there are freaks and weirdos all over the internet,
we can digest raw meat and eating some of our meat raw may have advantages (vitamin content), and disadvantages (pathogens, less bio-availability)
and, i guess there are a small percentage that may do well on that diet but i'm sticking with the "fire made us human" theory[1]......

Three points are foremost -
1/ it seems to be a great weight loss strategy - making it harder to get nutrition from the food
2/ with our modern meat production, from grazing to slaughter to processing, the risks are much higher than when we would have killed something and eaten it fresh
3/ modern humans generally don't have the microbiome and associated immunity that hunter-gatherers would have had (or in some cases still have)

If you can trust the meat then go for it as a part of your diet and increase slowly, but this reminds me of a conversation that i had with an otherwise intelligent person who quite earnestly believed that being a bretharian was possible and his 'proof' was that he felt better if he skipped the odd meal.

If a little is good it does not follow that only that is better.

And, at the risk of offending, i would suggest that you might want to review everything else that you are currently doing and reconsider the possible consequences (like sodium and propolis) before adding another layer of confusion over the top.
I'm getting the impression that you (and most people looking for relief) are prone to a gung-ho approach ("I'lll take a lot of that and see what happens")

just my two cents.....

[1] The energetic significance of cooking
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...47248409001262
Why Fire Makes Us Human
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/scienc...uman-72989884/
08-19-2017, 08:07 PM   #108
Crohn2357
Senior Member
 
Crohn2357's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013

My Support Groups:
my view.... just no......
there are freaks and weirdos all over the internet,
we can digest raw meat and eating some of our meat raw may have advantages (vitamin content), and disadvantages (pathogens, less bio-availability)
and, i guess there are a small percentage that may do well on that diet but i'm sticking with the "fire made us human" theory[1]......


[1] The energetic significance of cooking
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...47248409001262
Why Fire Makes Us Human
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/scienc...uman-72989884/
I thought it was interesting; but I would never eat animal products raw, I don't even eat most of my veggies raw in fear of infection, and to a much lesser extent, because of the lower absorption rate. I think I should've made myself clear on that point. Though, I still find that subject (some people are eating raw meat) interesting, and I also wonder how the taste & texture of the food feels like that way; but no - I wouldn't try to find it out...

"Three points are foremost -
1/ it seems to be a great weight loss strategy - making it harder to get nutrition from the food
2/ with our modern meat production, from grazing to slaughter to processing, the risks are much higher than when we would have killed something and eaten it fresh
3/ modern humans generally don't have the microbiome and associated immunity that hunter-gatherers would have had (or in some cases still have)"


Those are valid points that I completely agree with.


"If you can trust the meat then go for it as a part of your diet and increase slowly, but this reminds me of a conversation that i had with an otherwise intelligent person who quite earnestly believed that being a bretharian was possible and his 'proof' was that he felt better if he skipped the odd meal.

If a little is good it does not follow that only that is better."


I wouldn't eat the meat of an animal uncooked even if I raised the animal myself.


"And, at the risk of offending, i would suggest that you might want to review everything else that you are currently doing and reconsider the possible consequences (like sodium and propolis) before adding another layer of confusion over the top.
I'm getting the impression that you (and most people looking for relief) are prone to a gung-ho approach ("I'lll take a lot of that and see what happens")

just my two cents....."

I'm not offended; I take this as a valuable word of caution - though I'd like you to say what do you think I may be doing wrong in cases of sodium and propolis. I'm assuming, you're saying that I should more thoroughly and seriously consider the possible health consequences of the recent changes in my salt intake and propolis dosage (or, taking propolis in general) and do more research before experimenting, and change one thing at a time.

Last edited by Crohn2357; 08-19-2017 at 08:46 PM.
08-19-2017, 10:17 PM   #109
hugh
Senior Member
 
hugh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011

My Support Groups:
I'm not offended; I take this as a valuable word of caution - though I'd like you to say what do you think I may be doing wrong in cases of sodium and propolis. I'm assuming, you're saying that I should more thoroughly and seriously consider the possible health consequences of the recent changes in my salt intake and propolis dosage (or, taking propolis in general) and do more research before experimenting, and change one thing at a time.
There are three issues ( it's not that i think you are doing wrong or right.),
- firstly, there is the distinct possibility that a change anyone makes may lead to an improvement or a worsening of health, and that this may not manifest immediately.
Trying another supplement/exercise/food/medication to combat the unwanted effects of the original is not a path we want to head down so reviewing ALL the things currently being done (or being considered) to be aware of possible effects or interactions will be beneficial.
-secondly, making multiple changes at the same time (or even close to each other) makes it impossible to know what is responsible for improvement or decline.
-thirdly, large changes may upset a balance and cause a worsening before settling into an improvement,
08-20-2017, 03:20 AM   #110
Crohn2357
Senior Member
 
Crohn2357's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013

My Support Groups:
There are three issues ( it's not that i think you are doing wrong or right.),
- firstly, there is the distinct possibility that a change anyone makes may lead to an improvement or a worsening of health, and that this may not manifest immediately.
Trying another supplement/exercise/food/medication to combat the unwanted effects of the original is not a path we want to head down so reviewing ALL the things currently being done (or being considered) to be aware of possible effects or interactions will be beneficial.
-secondly, making multiple changes at the same time (or even close to each other) makes it impossible to know what is responsible for improvement or decline.
-thirdly, large changes may upset a balance and cause a worsening before settling into an improvement,
Thanks for writing these down. These are the basic principles of self-experimentation, and I actually knew I was being impatient and not following the right methodology with dealing this low blood pressure issue.

To me, it was obvious that I was not eating enough salt (regardless of the low bp) and this proved true after increasing my salt intake. The effects (other than on my blood pressure) of this change were just right and expected.

For propolis, I knew I've been taking high dose of it and I wanted to cut it down regardless of its effects on blood pressure, though I thought it would also increase my blood pressure and I wanted to get this quick.

But you're absolutely right, to be able to know what is causing what I should've followed the right method (the principles you've pointed out).

In regards to trying L-Glutamine in the future, my plan is to take it after a resection surgery (this is a recommended route) which is at least a month later.

About decreasing/increasing my carb intake so abruptly, yeah, you're right but when you think what you've been doing is wrong you have two choices: Either "correct" it suddenly, or, to change one parameter at a time in order to follow the right method, you just go with it for the time being.

In sum, I think it's a matter of impatience, your confidence on the changes you make, and how much you want to know of an effect of a change on your body (or, to say it more straight, how much you want to know what you are doing) and how much you just want to get a result without building a robust judgement from the elements of your experiment.

I appreciate the concern and the time you take to point out these principles as a note of caution. It made me reconsider what I've been doing, thank you.

Last edited by Crohn2357; 08-21-2017 at 02:32 AM.
08-20-2017, 05:58 AM   #111
Crohn2357
Senior Member
 
Crohn2357's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013

My Support Groups:
This is a useful infographic on salt (taken from here) in case anyone is interested:



Best way to know how much salt you eat in a day is to measure your salt intake with a teaspoon every meal one day.

Last edited by Crohn2357; 08-20-2017 at 12:11 PM.
08-22-2017, 12:49 PM   #112
Crohn2357
Senior Member
 
Crohn2357's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013

My Support Groups:
About a year ago I started to take propolis and it stopped my abdominal pain and rectal bleeding. It also decreased the severity and frequency of my migraines a little.

I knew I may get abdominal pain again after I stop taking it, and it is happening...

----- -----

Some time ago I pointed a thread in this forum to you that mentions the lead accumulation risk with drinking bone broth soup and eating the cooked bones.

Here is another one: http://www.crohnsforum.com/showthread.php?t=68753

It is obvious that the original study that started this debate is a terrible one; yet it makes me worried.

I wouldn't be worried if I was to drink the bone broth soup once in a year; but now that I'm not taking propolis, I'm planning to drink bone broth soups daily as a compensation for the absence of propolis.

I didn't go nuts over that study, I've been making and drinking bone broth soup since I read it, but it sure made me concerned, especially for the long term effects if I am to drink bone broth frequently.

I've read everything I can find about this debate (on paleo and non-paleo websites) but, still not sure. More and legitimate studies on this subject are urgently needed that's for sure.

The famous paleo websites (and forums) that wrote counter articles on that study don't sound convincing - which is adding to the concerns... On the one hand, the actual study is making it hard to discuss (and attach a special importance to) this issue because of the vagueness and the bad design of it; on the other hand, because of its rightly regarded beneficial effects, paleo followers have been drinking, using bone broth a lot and if the claims of lead contamination has truth in it, then this may have disastrous effects on people's lives.

This is a good talk about bone broth; but unfortunately it doesn't touch on the lead contamination issue. Nonetheless, I find the "mycoplasma" part at the 38th minute especially interesting.

We believe the body is not attacking itself, but is desperately trying to rid itself of disease-producing microbes that are not recognized by the scientific community.
--- --- --- ---

Take a look at this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gm4TvGt899Q

Last edited by Crohn2357; 08-22-2017 at 03:49 PM.
08-22-2017, 06:59 PM   #113
Crohn2357
Senior Member
 
Crohn2357's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013

My Support Groups:
hugh, you may like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhzV-J1h0do

A great talk on the history of cholesterol and related issues, given by a knowledgeable person.

***************** ***************** *****************

Edit: Here is a reddit post discussing the lead contamination issue, down below in the replies section you can see a link to the full text of the actual study.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ketoscience...evels_of_lead/

A counter article: http://tamararubin.com/2017/03/bone_broth/

More often than not “health-gurus” and “health bloggers” including some with MEDICAL credentials will (in their writing) attempt to diminish or discount the impact of the concentrated levels of lead found in bone broth.

* Lead bio-mimics calcium when absorbed by natural structures.
* Bones are high in calcium.
* That is why bones are a storehouse for lead (in all animals).
* If an animal is exposed to lead in their environment—from feed (many documented sources for contamination here), from soil, from tractors and other farm vehicles’ exhaust (yes, many of these – legally – still use leaded fuel!), from both modern and legacy paint and industrial finishes on farm equipment and buildings (yep, lead still legal in lots of “non-residential” paint as well!)— then their bones will absorb and accumulate this lead in the place of calcium.
* When you make broth from these bones (vs. from the meat of the animal) – be it a chicken or a cow or a pig, you are using the most leaded part of the animal to make the broth.
* The broth will pull all of the “nutrients” and “minerals” out of the bones and into the broth… and this includes lead.

There is no valid justification (not a single one) to intentionally concentrate lead in a single food source to add it to your diet. Just don’t do it. Make your broth out of the meat of the animal. Source your broth ingredients from known farms – where you have EVIDENCE that the farm does not use leaded gasoline (which, as stated above, is still legal to use in farm equipment) and does NOT have old lead painted farm buildings (it’s also perfectly legal for even organic farms to have old lead-painted buildings, vehicles, and industrial equipment!) and does NOT have soil that is lead contaminated from previous / legacy leaded pesticide use, and is NOT near a freeway or small airport that might have generated a lot of lead residue from leaded gasoline use [in the past for freeways and in the present for small airports (you guessed it – small planes still -legally- use leaded fuel!] that may have contaminated the soil.
Take a look at the comments section.

----------- ----------- -----------

It is said that long simmering process actually draws much more lead out of the bones than a short time cooking. In the early days (3-4 years ago) I used to cook the bones for 48 hours; then in this year I've found out I can cook them in pressure cooker for 5 hours and it would still be very gelatinous, so I've been doing that. Maybe this method is safer, but I really don't know.

Last edited by Crohn2357; 08-23-2017 at 01:25 PM.
08-26-2017, 09:28 PM   #114
hugh
Senior Member
 
hugh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011

My Support Groups:
About a year ago I started to take propolis....I knew I may get abdominal pain again after I stop taking it, and it is happening...
Is there a lower dose that works for you?
----- -----

[QUOTE=Crohn2357;986578]Some time ago I pointed a thread in this forum to you that mentions the lead accumulation risk with drinking bone broth soup and eating the cooked bones.........[/QUOTE

who knows? needs a proper study, then I will take notice...
08-27-2017, 01:20 AM   #115
Crohn2357
Senior Member
 
Crohn2357's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013

My Support Groups:
"Is there a lower dose that works for you?"

There is, but for the sake of experiment I'm still not taking propolis. To see if my bp will get any better. No changes yet.

I went to an endocrinologist to check my adrenal glands, thyroids... Except from all the known bullshit ("your 'bad' cholesterol is high, your vit d level is high and this is toxic..."), blood tests showed no problems.

If my bp won't get any better, I will consult to a cardio doctor and then, if we still don't have a clue, a neurology doctor.

I'm thinking of reducing my dietary potassium intake. I've been eating a lot of green bananas and it might be contributing. Though my Na/K levels are fine, our bodies do an excellent job at maintaining a narrow serum range when it comes to electrolytes. My dietary potassium intake is definitely higher than the average person. I will eat other vegetables that do not have especially high levels of potassium.

About the broth issue: People claim that human beings have been making bone broth for a very long time and broth is a traditional food, no danger has come from it...

What this person wrote I think deserves attention because it sounds reasonable to me. Don't you think?
Continuous long term exposure to lead sounds scary. I mean I'm not done with bone broth, in fact, I just drank one big cup of it, and will continue making and drinking it, but the world (the soil, the plants...) has changed so much and so rapidly after the WW2, and the thought of ingesting environmental toxins is worrisome.

Is this a vegan propaganda? A capitalist conspiracy? I don't care.

This is definitely not something to be dismissed, but, because we don't have any other studies yet, we can't know... We can only speculate.
08-27-2017, 02:24 AM   #116
hugh
Senior Member
 
hugh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011

My Support Groups:
About the broth issue: People claim that human beings have been making bone broth for a very long time and broth is a traditional food, no danger has come from it...
Yeah, before we fucked everything up and contaminated the crap out of everything?

What this person wrote I think deserves attention because it sounds reasonable to me. Don't you think?
If you start with the assumption that the study is legit then , it sounds reasonable.
But is the study legit?
If we stopped eating everything mentioned in dodgy science papers then there wouldn't be much left. I get the best chicken carcases i can and will take my chances until more data comes out.

Continuous long term exposure to lead sounds scary. I mean I'm not done with bone broth, in fact, I just drank one big cup of it, and will continue making and drinking it, but the world (the soil, the plants...) has changed so much and so rapidly after the WW2, and the thought of ingesting environmental toxins is worrisome
IF the chicken is lead contaminated then it came from the feed, the water or the soil.

This is definitely not something to be dismissed, but, because we don't have any other studies yet, we can't know... We can only speculate..
yes, speculate we can.
that's the good thing about the internet,
-choose your side and look for blogs that support your view ;-)
08-27-2017, 04:20 AM   #117
Crohn2357
Senior Member
 
Crohn2357's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013

My Support Groups:
I'm fine with rice, but don't eat a lot of it (have large amount and then none for a week...)

So, i'm guessing the problem isn't the glycemic index, it's the glycemic load (GI x quantity)

Smaller amounts of rice with more fat will buffer absorption.

If it were me i would try...
- rice dishes where the rice is fried in fat/oil before adding water (pilau, risotto, etc)
- smaller amounts and eat with fatty lamb,

might help, might not.....
About an hour ago, while I was in a supermarket, your remarks about glycemic load came to my mind. I thought, what if it is true? What if I'm actually eating more than one serving. I've always thought I've been eating less than one serving in a meal.

So I bought a pack of jasmine rice, came to my house, did some calculations...

It turns out, I've been eating more than one serving in a meal. One serving of (uncooked, white) rice equals to 1/4 cup of rice, which is about 45-55 grams.
I eat 80 grams of rice in a meal. That's 64 grams of carbohydrates.

I'll try 1/4 cup of rice this time. Might work.

Last edited by Crohn2357; 08-27-2017 at 04:39 AM.
09-02-2017, 06:01 AM   #118
InstantCoffee
Senior Member
 
InstantCoffee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Connecticut

My Support Groups:
How much rice area you eating? There's also arsenic to consider https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqLsBxfsvHM
__________________
Dx 05
Past drugs: Remicade, Azathioprine, Prednizone, antacids, Humira
Current therapy: Diet and supplements.
I'm my own guinea pig.
My log with studies, journal of my experiments:
http://www.crohnsforum.com/showthread.php?t=72046
My Blog
https://beyondtheoddsfitness.wordpress.com/
09-02-2017, 12:58 PM   #119
Crohn2357
Senior Member
 
Crohn2357's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013

My Support Groups:
Thanks for pointing out.

I eat one serving of jasmine rice in every meal. I mostly eat jasmine rice (imported from Thailand), sometimes I also eat sushi rice. These are known to have low arsenic levels. BTW, I never eat brown rice.

Another important factor is the water. I use a lab tested quality spring water for everything (cooking, drinking etc.).

Some notes from this website:

Brown rice has 80 percent more inorganic arsenic on average than white rice of the same type. Arsenic accumulates in the grain’s outer layers, which are removed to make white rice
White basmati rice from California, India, and Pakistan, and sushi rice from the U.S. on average has half of the inorganic-arsenic amount of most other types of rice.
You may be able to cut your exposure to inorganic arsenic in any type of rice by rinsing raw rice thoroughly before cooking, using a ratio of 6 cups water to 1 cup rice, and draining the excess water afterward. That is a traditional method of cooking rice in Asia. The modern technique of cooking rice in water that is entirely absorbed by the grains has been promoted because it allows rice to retain more of its vitamins and other nutrients. But even though you may sacrifice some of rice's nutritional value, research has shown that rinsing and using more water removes about 30 percent of the rice's inorganic arsenic content.
A comment (what he says is true):
The best rices are Basmati & Jasmine from California, India, and Thailand. They have the lowest Ia (arsenic) levels.
From this website.

Aromatic rice seem to be lower in general, such as Jasmine and Basmati. Imported Jasmine and Basmati rice are typically significant lower in arsenic than most US grown rice. Thailand rice is not only found to be low in arsenic in the latest testing, but last I heard they had banned genetically modified rice from their country, another important aspect to rice eating to consider.
Again...

Look for rice grown in California and imported basmati and jasmine rices, which may have lower arsenic levels. A 2007 study in Environmental Health Perspectives, for example, found less arsenic in rice grown in California than in the southcentral U.S. Another paper found that basmati rice from India and Pakistan, as well as jasmine rice from Thailand, had the least arsenic. But other research has had contradictory results.
From the wikipedia article for rice:
Jasmine rice from Thailand and Basmati rice from Pakistan and India contain the least arsenic among rice varieties in one study.
The source for this claim :

“Until this all gets sorted out, consumers shouldn’t be overly concerned,” Duxbury says. Nevertheless, rice fanciers might note that both Duxbury and Meharg found basmati rice imported from India and Pakistan and jasmine rice from Thailand to contain the least arsenic.
Here is the U.S. Food and Drug Administration Analytical Results from Inorganic Arsenic in Rice and Rice Products Sampling September 2013. The levels vary a lot.

I'm going to find imported basmati rice.

Last edited by Crohn2357; 09-02-2017 at 02:11 PM.
09-03-2017, 04:53 PM   #120
Crohn2357
Senior Member
 
Crohn2357's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013

My Support Groups:
InstantCoffee, feel free to give further ideas on the rice, if you have any. I'd appreciate it.

Secondly, what's your take on the broth - lead contamination topic?

Do you drink bone broth?
Reply

Crohn's Disease Forum » Diet, Fitness, and Supplements » Ketogenic diets, any risks?
Thread Tools


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:27 PM.
Copyright 2006-2017 Crohnsforum.com