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12-27-2012, 12:51 AM   #1
Hope345
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Causes of Crohns

I was recently reading an article which suggests Crohns could be caused by a bacteria from farm animals.

We do not live on a farm, but I took my daughter to a goat petting area every summer when she was young.

Is it possible she contracted something from them?

I am interested to find out if others with Crohns were also exposed to farm animals?
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12-27-2012, 01:06 AM   #2
kiny
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Can only assume they are referring to MAP.

It's a shorthand for M. Para, Mycobacterium Paratuberculosis, Mycobacterium Avium Subspecies Paratuberculosis, or simply MAP.

Mycobacteria is a genus of bacteria, amongst them are the bacteria responsible for Tuberculosis (M. Tuberculosis) and Leprosy (M. Leprae) and MAP. MAP causes Ptb (shorthand for Paratuberculosis) in ruminants.

Interestingly they recently found more genes associated with crohn's disease and many similarities between people susceptible to mycobacteria like leprosy and TB are present in subsets of crohn's disease patients.

Anyway, as to your question, I do not believe everyone with Crohn's disease has MAP, I believe it is a specific subgroup, categorizing crohn's disease as a single disease means you run into a lot of issues. A disease which involves immune deficiencies would involve a number of different pathogens, it is really really unlikely to me that crohn's disease is one disease, I believe there are many different subgroups of crohn's disease. Part of the frustration of biologists is that many clinicians still to this day treat crohn's disease as a single disease.

MAP is in aerosol, it can go airborne, if it's enough to get infected with it I don't think so, I believe infections would be through the water or food supply.

Interestingly, farmers don't seem to be more susceptible to crohn's disease, but there's no reason to assume this has to be true to make the case for MAP, you can just as easily assume that farmers would be less likely to have crohn's disease because they would build up resistance. There are a number of cases of houses clustered around dairy farm that had many more cases of crohn's disease than surrounding areas.

Last edited by kiny; 12-27-2012 at 01:29 AM.
12-27-2012, 01:38 AM   #3
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I also find it interesting to go over the list of animals with very different digestive systems to find out which animals have gotten Ptb.

After a while I gave up, because the list of animals affected by Ptb is so large by now that it would be easier to count the animals where no Ptb has been found.

Interestingly, paratuberculosis has been found in a tribe of monkeys, many of which died from the intestinal disorder and underfeeding.

The idea that all of those animals get sick from M. Para but humans would somehow be immune, is pretentious, and the fact this bacteria is still present in the food chain is disgraceful.

I can talk about this for a few pages very easily, and provide you with sources if you like, I find it interesting and it's easy to get caught up in it, I read one study and wanted to read another, I read another, I started talking to veterinaries and biologists and I never stopped reading since then, it's very addictive.

Last edited by kiny; 12-27-2012 at 02:04 AM.
12-27-2012, 02:42 AM   #4
Hope345
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so would you say it is possible to get that bacteria from a petting zoo?
12-27-2012, 02:58 AM   #5
kiny
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Well it's possible sure, I don't know if it's likely that's all. Younger animals often get Ptb because they come into contact with fecal matter during birth when they're delivered. Animals with Ptb shed large amounts of MAP in their fecal matter, that's how the soil gets contaminated and eventually the water supply.

I can't say how likely it would be, no one know what amount of MAP concentrations would be needed. MAP is in aerosol, but is it enough to cause issues, is milk likely or would you need a very high concentration like a Ptb postitive animal that gets into the food supply and is turned into meat, they don't know what concentrations are needed to cause issues.

Also, ruminants don't get Ptb right after infection, it takes quite a while, often years, before clinical symptoms appear.

Last edited by kiny; 12-27-2012 at 03:23 AM.
12-27-2012, 03:46 AM   #6
Hope345
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We have a local farm that has a goat run. There are a couple different types and ages of goats. It is a pretty clean place, but it would only take one bacteria making it into a childs body that grows there for several years and then something triggers it.

Crohns seems to be prevalent in America, Australia and the UK. We all have petting zoo's. I am just trying to connect the dots. Or seeing if there are dots to be connected.

It is that bacteria that they say feeds off of lactose.
12-27-2012, 03:57 AM   #7
kiny
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Well, it would depend on the host and if the host can reach bacterial clearance or not. There are controls without crohn's disease who have MAP also in their system (although MAP postitive subjects who have crohn's disease is much higher).

A bacteria like MAP could be considered harmless in host A and pathogenic in host B, depending on genetics and circumstances. (it wouldn't be the first bacteria where this is the case)

I also wonder if it is a fruitful endeavor to try to pinpoint any exposure to farm animals and trying to correlate it to the development of crohn's disease, there are so many ways to get exposed to MAP. Trying to limit further exposure to MAP just in case there is a causative link is an idea I can get behind though.

Last edited by kiny; 12-27-2012 at 04:14 AM.
12-27-2012, 04:22 AM   #8
kiny
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As far as your feeding question, it is dependent on mycobactin in labs, it steals iron inside the host.
12-27-2012, 09:02 AM   #9
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This reminded me of when I fell In my friends barn and was stuck by a pitchfork in my ankle that had cow poop on it . I was diagnosed with Crohn's 3 years ago.
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12-27-2012, 08:11 PM   #10
Farmwife
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Interestingly, farmers don't seem to be more susceptible to crohn's disease, but there's no reason to assume this has to be true to make the case for MAP, you can just as easily assume that farmers would be less likely to have crohn's disease because they would build up resistance. There are a number of cases of houses clustered around dairy farm that had many more cases of crohn's disease than surrounding areas.

I find this statement interesting.

No one in my husbands family has IBD. Fourth generation Dairy farmers.

This "building up a resistance" might have some merit.
If your wondering about Grace, she's doesn't drink raw milk like the rest of us. Never has! She's the ONLY one in my family with GI problems.
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12-27-2012, 10:38 PM   #11
System-X
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It's a complex issue. http://www.sciencedaily.com/search/?...365&sort=date#

• Intestinal Immune Cells Play an Unexpected Role in Immune Surveillance of the Bloodstream
December 13, 2012 — Researchers have found that dendritic cells in the intestinal lining collect antigens from both intestinal contents and the circulation, leading to the generation of T cells that suppress ... > full story

More Than 200 Genes Identified for Crohn's Disease
December 13, 2012 — More than two hundred gene locations have now been identified for the chronic bowel condition Crohn's Disease, in a study that analysed the entire human ... > full story

My Microbes: New Genetic Fingerprint Lives in Your Gut
December 5, 2012 — Our bodies contain far more microbial genes than human genes. And a new study suggests that just as human DNA varies from person to person, so too does the massive collection of microbial DNA in the ... > full story


New Bacteria to Fight Against Intestinal Inflammation
November 6, 2012 — Medical researchers have produced "beneficial bacteria" capable of protecting the body against intestinal ... > full story

New Light on the Genetic Basis of Inflammatory Diseases
November 1, 2012 — In one of the largest studies of its kind ever conducted, an international team of scientists has thrown new light on the genetic basis of the inflammatory bowel diseases (IBD).

New Genetic Links for Inflammatory Bowel Disease Uncovered
October 31, 2012 — Researchers from the Crohn's disease and ulcerative colitis communities have come together to share raw data as well as newly collected genetic information to dissect the biology of a group of ... > full story

Possible Overlap of IBS Symptoms and Inflammatory Bowel Disease
October 22, 2012 — New research suggests a possible overlap of symptoms of two prevalent GI disorders: irritable bowel syndrome (IBS) and inflammatory bowel disease (IBD) and further suggests a possible link between ... > full story

Racial Disparities in IBDsymptoms and Therapy
October 22, 2012 — Three separate studies help to advance understanding of the differences between African American and Caucasian patients with Inflammatory Bowel Disease (IBD) and provide clinicians with new insight ... > full story

Specific Bacterial Species May Initiate, Maintain Crohn’s
October 22, 2012 — Patients newly diagnosed with pediatric Crohn's disease had significantly different levels of certain types of bacteria in their intestinal tracts than age-matched controls, according to new ...
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