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Crohn's Disease Forum » Books, Multimedia, Research & News » Molecular pathogenesis of bovine paratuberculosis and human inflammatory bowel diseases.


01-15-2013, 04:30 PM   #1
mf15
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Molecular pathogenesis of bovine paratuberculosis and human inflammatory bowel diseases.

FYI. This one out of Japan says no to MAP and Crohns.
I searched and did not see it posted here.
Old Mike
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22486997
01-15-2013, 05:03 PM   #2
kiny
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Thank you, I've linked it before.

I've talked to him and I think it's important to read the whole study, because the abstract was very different from what he is suggesting. If you don't really know what he means I think some people might be confused at what he's saying.

What do people think he is suggesting reading the abstract?
01-15-2013, 05:17 PM   #3
mf15
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From the abstract: Old Mike
Our present comparative study strongly suggests that we reconsider the previous hypothesis that "Map infection" causes CD, even though human intestines were considered to have been exposed to the Map antigen containing the DNA.

I infer that MAP does not cause CD,but that IBD cases may have been exposed,
to MAP,and DNA is present in some IBD cases,also no active MAP.

What is the complete paper saying.
I have UC but interestyed in MAP,since I moved within a half mile or less of a working dairy farm in 1979,UC 1980. If the cattle have MAP it is in the air and dust I breath,also have eaten fresh milk from the dairy. When my son first got sick in 2000 I remember finding a news clip discussing a crohn's cluster in my area,cannot locate now.
01-15-2013, 05:33 PM   #4
kiny
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I talked to him because I didn't get his conclusion.

He's not saying MAP is not causative, he's saying it's "antigen" MAP, dead MAP from pasteurisation. That's why he says it's not a "MAP infection", since infection implies live bacteria.

He used antigen MAP and introduced it to mice, it looks more similar clinically to crohn's disease than live MAP does in paratuberculosis.
01-15-2013, 05:53 PM   #5
mf15
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I guess I need to read the full paper somehow which I cant get,at least for free.
Anyhow this has also probably been posted before,but it has a bunch of good references. I might add,where I live there are also slaughter houses,plus lots of cattle and pig trucks drive through the main intersection. When I moved in the township water company was also I believe getting the water from wells.
Old Mike
http://www.gutpathogens.com/content/1/1/17
01-15-2013, 05:53 PM   #6
Mark in Seattle
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I haven't read the full report yet, but when I read the abstract, I infer two points that seem to suggest that MAP is not causative for CD:

1) CD lesions differ from ptb lesions in that CD lesions are full-thickness vs. ptb granulomas.

2) No MAP antigen in CD vs antigen in ptb.

Our present comparative study strongly suggests that we reconsider the previous hypothesis that "Map infection" causes CD, even though human intestines were considered to have been exposed to the Map antigen containing the DNA.

I'm a little confused by the author's final statement. Seems like the wording may be off. I think he's trying to emphasize that there is typically an assumption that the CD intestines have been exposed to MAP antigen, but this study disputes that.
01-15-2013, 06:00 PM   #7
kiny
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I haven't read the full report yet, but when I read the abstract, I infer two points that seem to suggest that MAP is not causative for CD:

1) CD lesions differ from ptb lesions in that CD lesions are full-thickness vs. ptb granulomas.

2) No MAP antigen in CD vs antigen in ptb.

Our present comparative study strongly suggests that we reconsider the previous hypothesis that "Map infection" causes CD, even though human intestines were considered to have been exposed to the Map antigen containing the DNA.

I'm a little confused by the author's final statement. Seems like the wording may be off. I think he's trying to emphasize that there is typically an assumption that the CD intestines have been exposed to MAP antigen, but this study disputes that.
He's saying that continuous exposure to antigen MAP causes the lesions, in the West they pasteurize everyhting and live MAP turns into dead MAP and cause an inflammatory response each time the antigen is introduced.

Each time he says antigen in that study he's talking about dead MAP from pasteurisation or simple heating. Each time he mentions infection he's referring to live MAP, actual living bacteria.
01-15-2013, 06:07 PM   #8
mf15
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That is interesting and makes a lot of sense.
Seems that we are exposed to antigens quite often,dairy,meat,dust,water,vegies with live or dead MAP from farm runoff,I may even have it in my garden from using composted manure years ago.
Looks like we perhaps cannot get away from it.
Some how need to de sensitize the antibody response,need to look into that.
May also mean we have lost oral tolerance,which was a big theory years ago.
Old Mike
01-15-2013, 06:08 PM   #9
Mark in Seattle
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OK, thanks for the clarification kiny. I think the author could have phrased the final statement much better so as to make clear which "human intestines" he was referring to (this study or other studies in general) and "considered" by whom (the author or researchers in general).

And of course I've got someof my own ignorance to contend with when reading these things, such as "antigen" vs " "infection".

So kiny, you're saying that you've corresponded with the author and have gotten confirmation that the author is suggesting that MAP antigen from dead (pasteurized) MAP is causative of CD, is that right?
01-15-2013, 06:10 PM   #10
kiny
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Right, one of the things he said is that he can't believe that in the West people are not on special diets and are not instructed to stop drinking milk.

It's a theory of his though, no one has followed up on this.
01-15-2013, 06:12 PM   #11
kiny
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So kiny, you're saying that you've corresponded with the author and have gotten confirmation that the author is suggesting that MAP antigen from dead (pasteurized) MAP is causative of CD, is that right?
Right, again it's his theory, his rodent model where he introduces the antigen looks a lot like crohn, but it's a rodent, but at least it looks more like crohn than DSS mice with colitis do, which look nothing like crohn.

He's a lovely person, caring and is researching this with the only goal to help people.
01-15-2013, 06:18 PM   #12
Mark in Seattle
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Thanks for taking the time to add a clearer lense to view what would otherwise be a somewhat meaningless abstract for me.
01-15-2013, 06:29 PM   #13
Mark in Seattle
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Maybe you're right Mike; maybe the work that Qu Biologics is doing may prove fruitful, and maybe they'll add a MAP strain to their portfolio.

Their work reminds me of taking my kid to the allergist for allergy shots to minimize the allergic reaction to airborne allergens.

I like the work that Ellen Pierce does. She seems to try to chase down clusters and she seems to have a one-track theme, that MAP is causative. She focuses a lot on water sources. She's even gone so far as to say that aerosolized water vapor contains MAP, which seems far-fetched to me, but I find these articles that she writes to be sort of thought-provoking.
01-15-2013, 06:34 PM   #14
kiny
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Maybe you're right Mike; maybe the work that Qu Biologics is doing may prove fruitful, and maybe they'll add a MAP strain to their portfolio.

Their work reminds me of taking my kid to the allergist for allergy shots to minimize the allergic reaction to airborne allergens.

I like the work that Ellen Pierce does. She seems to try to chase down clusters and she seems to have a one-track theme, that MAP is causative. She focuses a lot on water sources. She's even gone so far as to say that aerosolized water vapor contains MAP, which seems far-fetched to me, but I find these articles that she writes to be sort of thought-provoking.
This is a nice article if you like her studies: http://www.plospathogens.org/article...l.ppat.1000234

and the comment to it is thought provoking too
01-15-2013, 07:48 PM   #15
mf15
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Here is another. Old Mike
May have been posted in the past.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21221802
01-23-2013, 03:07 AM   #16
kiny
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The controversy with MAP is, that journals are picking what they want to write.

All the journals on biology, veterinary journals and other journals will give voice to people against and for MAP evidence. Overall, these journals have been pretty neutral. So have the veterinarians and biologists, incredibly props to them and to some GI with an open mind.

But all the journals linked to GI involvement like ECCO and stuff will not be neutral, they will post ALL the stuff that is against MAP. Doesn't matter how stupid it is.

So some veterinarian and biologist will post information that could help unravel the controversy, and help people who have a disease where some die from, a serious disease.

But then some other people will come and post some troll articles and give these people a platform, like V Kruiningen with his Weapons of Mass destruction, great respectful title, and all GI will clammer onto this and of course, the no-ethics big pharma journal will pick it up and the GI editors of those journals can bathe in some more bribes from big pharma.

And another person will post something about MAP and the cycle continues, no one respecting the patients who suffer.

The right thing to do is to say "we don't know", but that's not done, the GI are making up the opinion for their patients even though this controversy is far from solved and this should be looked at with an open mind, giving a platform to evidence against and for this theory, because as long as the controversy is not solved, people are suffering.

MAP has been linked to both crohn's disease AND diabetes now, diseases with millions of sufferers worldwide, any journal or paper or GI that can not be respectful or neutral should no longer be allowed to carry their title or have the right to continue publishing articles.

If it's not MAP then it's not MAP, but so far tests are very inconclusive, false negatives become positives, methods to test are bad, and the tests are inconclusive partly because of the controversy, if this issue was widely known to the general public that this is a potential zoonotic pathogen, everyone would have pulled on the alarm bell by now, but as long as it's not known, governments can keep pretending, many GI can keep pretending, big pharma can keep pretending, and people with crohn's disease who will not have a favorable view of GI at all if it is MAP, will keep suffering.

Maybe if some GI had the disease and knew how much people suffered, they would think differently about bickering back and forth and making a controversy out of something that should not be a controversy but a genuine attempt to resolve something that could potentially help people.

Last edited by kiny; 01-23-2013 at 04:24 AM.
01-23-2013, 06:13 AM   #17
Dave Watson
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
I think the real issue with MAP, after all the research, is how the bug causes disease. Many researchers focused on an aggressive immune response to MAP, but it just didnít add up; MAP was not found throughout diseased tissue! And more research suggests Crohnís sufferers have a WEAK immune response instead of an aggressive one necessary to cause the inflammation/ulcers. Hereís just one study but thereís about six that confirm it.
In Crohnís disease, a constitutionally weak immune response predisposes to accumulation of intestinal contents that breach the mucosal barrier of the bowel wall.
Source: http://www.thelancet.com/journals/la...265-2/abstract
My first article will be up today, The Real Cause of Inflammation/Ulcers In Crohnís?, and it will SHOCK Crohnís sufferers: the inflammation/ulcers are caused by normal gut bacteria and not some unproven, aggressive immune response.
01-28-2013, 01:23 AM   #18
jessefrancis
 
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Hi Dave Watson, where is the new article you speak of posting?
Thanks
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