Share Facebook
Crohn's Disease Forum » Books, Multimedia, Research & News » Emulsifiers Detergents and IBD


01-20-2013, 08:52 PM   #1
mf15
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Pennsylvania
Emulsifiers Detergents and IBD

I don't believe I posted this in the past on this forum. But reading post #98
in the Etiology thread remined me of this info.


While many of these emulsifiers/surfactants,detergents were not around prior to 1920, nor used in food, there was at least one used early on, lecithin,and yes it will make it part way though the digestive process. Yes it is in eggs and soy. Lecithin from soy was first used in food early 1920's but perhaps just in europe,still trying to track history on this.
I have been looking into this for years,even tried to ingest low surfactant diet,but the stuff is everywhere,your clothes,residue on dishes,toothpaste.
Will do more searching on early use of surfactants.
Better living through chemistry may be killing us.
Yes I know that the PC would be destroyed by lipase in the small intestine,and that PC contributes to the hydrophobic nature of the colon mucus layer. Other possibles are a change in the emulsification properties of bile acids.

Old Mike



https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...-oSl1NF-pi0qnA





This one is real good. Its really all about the mucus barrier.

http://www.charite.de/arbmkl/themen/...olensascha.pdf

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...00050-0131.pdf

http://www.charite.de/arbmkl/publikationen/2009cmc.pdf

Synthetic detergents almost fits.
http://www.cleaninginstitute.org/cle...history_3.aspx

Mucus viscosity gradient.
http://www.charite.de/arbmkl/publika...7viscosity.pdf

http://www.drbozo.com/library/1767.pdf

http://www.pnas.org/content/108/suppl.1/4659.full.pdf

DMSO
http://ajpgi.physiology.org/content/....2012.abstract

Postiong interesting stuff I find.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2156646

Mucinase activity.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1382769/

Theronine restriction.
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/135/3/486.full

amino acids
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16702321
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/136/6/1558.full.pdf

Nano particles
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/mp100242r

Mucus is degradded first in DDS colitis then the bacteria can get in.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20805871

Cheese whey.
http://download.journals.elsevierhea...0210001098.pdf

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/135/3/486.full

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/139/4/720.full.pdf

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22168406

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21430244

http://www.jacn.org/content/26/6/713S.long

http://www.altmedrev.com/publications/9/2/136.pdf

Last edited by mf15; 01-21-2013 at 02:17 PM.
01-21-2013, 12:21 AM   #2
kiny
Senior Member
 
kiny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
thanks for all that work you put into it, I will read them but it will take a while lol
01-21-2013, 12:48 AM   #3
wildbill_52280
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
i actually just read this article last night and believe it is one of the greatest studies on ibd ever done.
http://www.charite.de/arbmkl/themen/...olensascha.pdf

the reason i believe it is so great is because it highlights the insignificance of a genetic risks in autophagy and intracellular bacterial genes, these genes are unimportant because the bacteria cannot touch the mucosa without getting past the mucus barrier. it partially answers the question, how the hell are bacteria getting into these cells?

what a coincidence.
01-21-2013, 12:56 AM   #4
Xiaofa Qin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: New Jersey
Thanks for sharing these interesting articles.
01-21-2013, 02:14 AM   #5
kiny
Senior Member
 
kiny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
This one is real good. Its really all about the mucus barrier.

http://www.charite.de/arbmkl/themen/...olensascha.pdf
He says somewhere around the end that mesalazine supressed biofilm formation, I never heard about this though.

He says antibiotics stop working because you get resistance and the mucus layer won't be repaired and you'll just get bacteria invading the mucus layer again and again.

In some people with crohn's disease the mucus layer is repaired though, and they get crohn again after a while, even if they put them on EN.

Maybe mucosal breach is just a secondary or last step event like some suggest, and it's transmural. Lymphangitis is seen in crohn's disease, it's inflammation of the deeper lymphatic system.

The hygiene theory he talks about would shape people's adaptive immune system early in life, but it takes only a couple of years for adults who come from India to the West to get a higher incidence of crohn's disease.

I don't know why everyone isn't put on EN for crohn's disease immediately, it would limit detergents he talks about and add-ons in food and whatever else immediately.

Last edited by kiny; 01-21-2013 at 02:35 AM.
01-21-2013, 05:18 PM   #6
mf15
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Pennsylvania
I have aded a bunch more studies.
My basic take which I came to years ago when these papers first came out is that
with an intact mucus barrier the bacteria cannot get to the gut surface/immune cells,
therefore no UC. If the mucus layer is depleted,has a lowered hydrophobic surface,lowered viscosity,destroyed by bacterial protease,dissolved by emulsifiers/surfactants/nano particles disease may develope.
Lecethin perhaps fits with the increased UC incidence timeline around 1920 and earlier.
That is perhaps a long shot,since it should be destroyed early in the small intestine,but perhaps when adding it as an outside source to food,the digestive lipase cannot get to it fast enough. This or something like it may have started the increase in IBD early on,then large amounts of synthetic surfactants and emulsifiers were used especially after 1940.

Old Mike
01-21-2013, 05:31 PM   #7
David
Co-Founder
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Naples, Florida
Mike, you probably know by now that I'm of the opinion that nutrient, vitamin, and mineral deficiency in genetically and/or environmentally susceptible individuals plays a huge role in the pathogenesis of Crohn's. I know you're big on the timeline stuff so here's a paper for you showcasing how whole foods has become 5-40% less nutrient dense. I'm not talking the processed foods so many eat, I'm talking fruits and veggies being less nutrient dense.
01-21-2013, 06:09 PM   #8
mf15
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Pennsylvania
Thanks David,this is of course probably one factor. I had a book from 1954 that talked about it way back then. I have taken multi vitamins,multi minerals makes me worse,at least the minerals.
Yes,one of my obsessions with this disease is the timeline.
Old Mike
01-22-2013, 12:13 AM   #9
Mark in Seattle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Issaquah, Washington

My Support Groups:
I just happened to start with this cheese whey writeup, and it essentially had a conclusion that was positive for cheese whey being protective against colitis in rats. Just wanted to point out that the articles are apparently not all discussing negatives & risks; this one at least focuses on potential protection.

CONCLUSIONS
Whey protein diminished inflammatory gene expression
and protected against diarrhea induced by DSS.
Protection coincided with increased mucin secretion
and fecal counts of bifidobacteria and lactobacilli.
Therefore, enhanced mucin synthesis and stimulation of
the beneficial microbiota may play a prominent role in
protection against colitis. Because supplementation of
threonine and cysteine resulted in comparable effects, it
is most likely that the protective effect of whey protein
is due to its threonine and cysteine content. Further research
is necessary to determine whether dietary whey
protein protects humans against colitis.
01-22-2013, 12:50 AM   #10
kiny
Senior Member
 
kiny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Hm, there's studies that showed decreased mucus barrier and increased mucus barrier in crohn's disease though, unlike in colitis and DSS mice.

Several studies show that mucus layer is thicker in crohn's disease than in controls.

No one knows yet if crohn's disease inflammation goes:

-mucus > mucosa > submucosa

or the other way around, if it's an intestinal bacteria it's going to be the other way around, breakdown of the mucus would a final event, not the primary event

UC is topical, CD is transmural all the way across, so which way is the inflammation going, from the intestine towards the mucus layer or from the mucus layer down into the intestine

So what works for those colitis mice with topical mucus involvement might be completely useless for transmural crohn's disease. I think that's an issue when they use those colitis DSS mice models for crohn's disease, it's nothing like crohn's disease at all.

I don't know if it's that easy as to say, we protect the mucus barrier and we cure crohn's disease. There's lymphangitis and lymph node infection seen in crohn's disease, mesentery involvement on the "outside" of the intestine, sometimes fat wrapping. Not where the mucus layer is, deep in submucosa and on the opposite side of the mucus layer, it's a transmural disease nothing like UC and nothing like the DSS mice.

Last edited by kiny; 01-22-2013 at 01:40 AM.
01-22-2013, 01:54 AM   #11
kiny
Senior Member
 
kiny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
I think that's why I got annoyed at that study that suggested they found some F Prau commensal and they might have found the cause of IBD.

UC has autoimmunity, there is an inflammatory response against colonic tissue, has nothing to do with bacteria, it's seen in 80% of people with UC. That's why the inflammation is everywhere in UC, the body is targeting the colon with autoimmunity directed at the tissue.

Crohn has no autoimmunity (at least they never found any and I don't think they ever will), but perhaps crohn's disease has nothing to do with the mucus layer and the intestinal flora, there's many diseases where eventually the mucus layer gets broken down, but that was not a primary event, it's a complication of the disease.
01-22-2013, 04:53 AM   #12
Mark in Seattle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Issaquah, Washington

My Support Groups:
Yeah, the Swidinsky and Vera Loening–Baucke stuff (all about the mucus barrier as Mike stated) is amazing.


I notice that there is a book coming out in April listed on Amazon, The Human Microbiota: How Microbial Communities Affect Health and Disease

Swidinsky and Vera Loening–Baucke author chapter 9 if anyone's interested. Maybe a library could source it for reading purposes for free.

Table of Contents

Preface David N. Fredricks, MD Chapter 1. The NIH Human Microbiome Project Lita M Proctor, PhD, Shaila Chhibba, Chris Wellington, Jean McEwen, JD, PhD, Jane Peterson, PhD, Maria Giovanni, PhD, Pamela McInnes, DDS MSc, and Carl Baker, MD, PhD, R. Dwayne Lunsford, PhD Chapter 2. Methods for Characterizing Microbial Communities Associated with the Human Body Vincent Young, MD PhD, Christine Bassis, PhD, and Thomas Schmidt, PhD Chapter 3. Phyloarrays Eoin L. Brodie, PhD, and Susan V. Lynch, PhD Chapter 4. Mathematical Approaches for Describing Microbial Populations: Practice and Theory for Extrapolation of Rich Environments Manuel E. Lladser, PhD, and Rob Knight, PhD Chapter 5. Tension at the Border: How Host Genetics and the Enteric Microbiota Conspire to Promote Crohn’s Disease Daniel N. Frank, PhD, and Ellen Li, MD, PhD Chapter 6. The Human Airway Microbiome Edith T. Zemanick, MD and J. Kirk Harris, PhD Chapter 7. The Microbiota of the Mouth: Benefits and Malefits Angela H. Nobbs, PhD, David Dymock, PhD, and Howard F. Jenkinson, PhD Chapter 8. The Microbiota of the Genitourinary Tract Laura Sycuro, PhD, MSc and David N. Fredricks, MD Chapter 9. Functional Structure of Intestinal Microbiota in Health and Disease Alexander Swidsinski, MD, PhD and Vera Loening–Baucke, MD Chapter 10. From Fly to Man: Understanding How Commensal Microorganisms Influence Host Immunity and Health June L. Round, PhD Chapter 11. Insights into the Human Microbiome from Animal Models Bethany A. Rader, PhD, and Karen Guillemin, PhD Chapter 12. To Grow or Not to Grow: Isolation and Cultivation Procedures in the Genomic Age Karsten Zengler, PhD Chapter 13. New Approaches to Cultivation of Human Microbiota Slava S. Epstein, PhD, Maria Sizova, PhD, and Amanda Hazen, MS Chapter 14. Manipulating the Indigenous Microbiota in Humans: Prebiotics, Probiotics and Synbiotics George T. Macfarlane, PhD, and Sandra Macfarlane PhD
01-23-2013, 06:28 AM   #13
Mark in Seattle
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Issaquah, Washington

My Support Groups:
Anybody know of any good resources - threads, books, youtube, links, etc., which would offer good/non-toxic alternatives for household and personal cleaning agents, to get away from these products with detergents, surfactants and the like? I went shopping last night with the intent of replacing our dish soap and sponges, but I couldn't understand whether the "ECO" products I was looking at in the store were any less toxic than what I already had.
01-23-2013, 06:33 AM   #14
kiny
Senior Member
 
kiny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Not me, I would need to learn how to clean first. I argued with my roommate that not removing the spiders is a good idea since it keeps other bugs out.
01-23-2013, 11:34 AM   #15
David
Co-Founder
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Naples, Florida
It's tough for sure Mark. I make use of vinegar and hot water a lot in cleaning. I still use crappy dishwasher soap though which is one area I still have to figure out. I also don't believe in trying to kill every single bacteria and virus in the house. I get up the dust, the dog hair, the tracked in dirt. But I rarely use harsh chemicals around the house. What's the point? I prefer to do everything I can to keep my immune system strong so that it doesn't matter what bacteria and viruses are around.

The exceptions are the occasional diluted bleach in the shower to get rid of mold and the dishwasher stuff. I really need to figure out a good solution to the dishwasher stuff. The best solution is likely hand washing but I'm lazy.

Kiny, we let spiders stay as long as they want We have names for many of them.
01-23-2013, 11:49 AM   #16
mf15
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Pennsylvania
I have tried this in the past,use only ivory bar soap to bathe,I was only using baking soda to brush teeth,but they became over sensetive when not using flouride toothpaste. Try and find toothpaste without SLS,or other detergents. Double rinse clothes, detergent residue from the dishwasher might be a problem. Try not to eat foods that contain emulsifiers,such as polysorbate 60,lecethin is an unknown,CMC.
Try to lower nano particulate loads,toothpaste gel if can find without detergent.
Wash hair with ivory bar soap if possible.
Regular old soap is fine, it is synthetic detergents that might be a problem.
Old Mike
01-23-2013, 11:59 AM   #17
David
Co-Founder
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Naples, Florida
This is the toothpaste recipe I use. It's great and I haven't had any sensitivity issues.
11-26-2014, 08:42 AM   #18
MetzlerM
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
I just found out that i have an ulcerated part of my bowel again for the first time in 5 years. I laid in bed for 3 hours this morning and dissected my past to the best of my memory. I arrived at the conclusion that I had been using dish soap and not rinsing it thoroughly after or using a dishwasher machine. I have not used dish detergent for 5 years, because I moved out of my mothers house and went to college. I have no cooking skills whatsoever and 99% of my meals have been prepared by other ppl, usually restaurants and reheating restaurant food on paper plates. With my new dish detergent hypothesis I finally got out of bed and searched dish soap and IBD which led me to this webpage.

In addition, nutrient density is not a thorough explanation for IBD. With surfactants at least there is a direct method in which it may cause IBD. Nutrient density (number of minerals + vitamins / kilocalories) makes no sense as a cause for IBD, because nutrient density depends on kilocalories. If you erase kilocalories from the equation you are just left with amount of minerals and vitamins which is also not a thorough explanation for IBD. Everybody knows amount of vitamins and minerals in total is irrelevant, but amount of each specific vitamin and mineral may be important. Also, the direct cause and effect of minerals or vitamins on the body is not understood well. Unless someone has new deductive reasoning to share on nutrient density causing IBD, i would stop using the excessively broad term of "nutrient density."

I revised my reply to make it more respectful and accurate

Last edited by MetzlerM; 11-26-2014 at 08:57 AM.
11-26-2014, 08:47 AM   #19
David
Co-Founder
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Naples, Florida
It's an interesting possibility for sure Metzler. Strangely enough, it would also explain why Enteral Nutrition works. No poorly rinsed dishes providing soap residue.
11-26-2014, 09:00 AM   #20
MetzlerM
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
I do not understand your sentence about soap residue

Also, I'm sorry I was so rude as to call nutrient density a joke. I rarely interact in social media, and it seems to be easy to forget my manners.

Though, we probably still disagree on nutrient density

Last edited by MetzlerM; 11-26-2014 at 09:31 AM.
11-26-2014, 09:06 AM   #21
David
Co-Founder
 
David's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Naples, Florida
Enteral Nutrition is shown to have remission inducing effects in many people with Crohn's disease. Enteral nutrition takes many forms, but one important common denominator is you're (usually) not going to be using your own glasses or dishes with it. As such, if someone was experiencing intestinal inflammation due to the soap residue on their dishes, switching to enteral nutrition for awhile would take away that residue.

Anytime someone has a theory about the cause of IBD, that theory often doesn't explain why enteral nutrition would work. In your case, it would.
11-26-2014, 09:36 AM   #22
MetzlerM
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
I've only just thought of a relationship between my ingestion of dish detergent and my IBD, and I lack the education to take that hypothesis further. Thankfully you guys have created a crohn's forum in which I can add my personal experience to the post creator's thread.
11-26-2014, 10:15 AM   #23
MetzlerM
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
My IBD is 100% specific to my colon. I used (stopping today) Dawn Dish soap. I definitely did not rinse my dishes thoroughly enough to remove the residue.

New thought: investigate if type of dish soap used by ulcerative colitis ppl is similar or soap brand might not matter. Investigate differences between the brands that are more highly correlated and less correlated.

Then investigate to see if the people with small intestine issues have the same usage or different usage of dish soap. My thought is that since my ulcers are located purely in my colon, then maybe dish soap may only have an effect on colon lining. Other environmental causes may be giving small intestine sufferers their issues.

I am not a doctor, I am an accounting major
11-27-2014, 12:05 AM   #24
Crohn2357
Senior Member
 
Crohn2357's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013

My Support Groups:
I've been thinking about this. I have a solution. I live alone in my house. From now on I won't use dishwasher and detergents. Everyday I will only use the same 1 plate, 1 fork, 1 spoon, 1 knife, 1 glass etc... and will wash them with only pressure hot water. I will wash them immediately after I use them.

As for toothpaste, I've been using parodontax original. At least it doesn't contain fluoride.
11-27-2014, 05:38 AM   #25
mf15
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Pennsylvania
I was still am a big proponent of detergents causing gut problems.
But went on a low detergent/low food emulsifier lifestyle for 3 months, but it did nothing
for my UC. With crohns the mucus is too thick,and there is a bicarbonate transport problem in the small intestine,where bicarbonate ion expands the mucus from the crypts.
But not enough bicarbonate.
UC the mucus is of low viscosity and not enough. Biofilms are involved in both diseases.
Old Mike
Reply

Crohn's Disease Forum » Books, Multimedia, Research & News » Emulsifiers Detergents and IBD
Thread Tools


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:04 AM.
Copyright 2006-2017 Crohnsforum.com