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Crohn's Disease Forum » Diet, Fitness, and Supplements » When the Paleo/Low Carb & Vegan Diets Don't Work


 
01-24-2013, 02:03 PM   #1
nogutsnoglory
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When the Paleo/Low Carb & Vegan Diets Don't Work

Many here will know that for months I was gung-ho about my paleo diet and truly believed it might be the answer. Years back I was a vegan for many years. Having tried two "radical" diets I want to comment on my experience. I am by no means saying these diets don't help people but often you only see positive testimonials and I wanted to share how these diets did not work for me.

The Paleo Diet:
I think that as a result of cutting out dairy that my bones and joint pain has gotten very bad. I did not have much trouble in this area prior to this diet. Cutting out dairy and wheat forced me to seek out carbs for energy from higher fiber foods which further irritated my gut lining. I lost nearly 50 pounds on this diet in a few short months and have severe diarrhea, bone pain and fatigue. I did not have a good experience with this diet.

The Vegan diet:
I was vegan for many years, prior to even having crohn's. I was not a healthy vegan per se because I opted for lots of processed foods like soy burgers, tofurkey, etc and think the diet shift may have kicked in any predisposition I had to crohn's disease. I think a vegan diet high in beans, whole grains, vegetables, fruit, nuts and seeds is incredibly healthy but again worry about the amount of fiber and it's impact on a diseased gut. There are also areas of caution as there is no plant source of vit b12 and it is more challenging to obtain adequate amounts of protein, vit D, calcium, iron, zinc, and other vitamins & nutrients.

I truly support those embarking on these dietary changes. I more than anyone want to see a natural alternative to medicine. I just also want it to be known that I got into a really bad place by going this route. I am open to trying diets in the future but probably nothing that is so radical to cut out entire food groups.
01-24-2013, 02:35 PM   #2
mickey
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You can get calcium from plenty of other sources, so realize lack of dairy is probably not the source of joint/bone pain. I found corn to be a source of my joint swelling/pain. Took some time but that was it. So, some foods can cause those other problems.

Probably the best focus would be on putting "clean/pure" foods and drinks in your body. Eat enough variety that gives you adequate vitamins/protein, etc. I have been pretty much dairy free and red meat free for decades and my levels are quite healthy. I take daily multi-vitamins, extra D, folic acid and calcium (now and then, as that rips up the stomach). I avoid rice, breads, etc. and do not miss them. I try to eat more fish and chicken (only organic) and have to ease up on beans. Soy is another trigger for me. So, sometimes it is the ingredients within the food we eat that causes the problems. Takes a while, but you can sort it out. Good luck!
01-24-2013, 02:56 PM   #3
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Yeah I've always wondered about paleo and where you get carbs from with it. I mean if you cut out wheat you're left with sugar, and if I was to eat 300g worth of sugary carbs it probably wouldn't be a good idea :P

As far as my diet goes I have 0 variety. I eat the same things every day because none of it upsets my stomach and I know I get adequate nutrition from it. It could be healthier, and I'm tempted to add in some sort of soup to it but no clue where it'd fit in at the moment. I must get about.. 80-90g protein from milk each day, and the rest I get from whey. Rest of my diet is rice and noodles since the milk gets most the fats too.

I think diet can help some people, but for others it just doesn't. I don't think there's anything wrong with trying out the different diets to see if any of them do work for someone, but I think saying "It will make your crohns better it did for me" isn't the right approach.
01-24-2013, 03:18 PM   #4
nogutsnoglory
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Yeah I've always wondered about paleo and where you get carbs from with it. I mean if you cut out wheat you're left with sugar, and if I was to eat 300g worth of sugary carbs it probably wouldn't be a good idea :P

As far as my diet goes I have 0 variety. I eat the same things every day because none of it upsets my stomach and I know I get adequate nutrition from it. It could be healthier, and I'm tempted to add in some sort of soup to it but no clue where it'd fit in at the moment. I must get about.. 80-90g protein from milk each day, and the rest I get from whey. Rest of my diet is rice and noodles since the milk gets most the fats too.

I think diet can help some people, but for others it just doesn't. I don't think there's anything wrong with trying out the different diets to see if any of them do work for someone, but I think saying "It will make your crohns better it did for me" isn't the right approach.
The paleo approach is pretty anti-carb but I found I craved/needed it for energy otherwise I felt so weak I could barely move. The only paleo carbs allowed are starchy vegetables but these are supposed to be rare treats. There are some who follow the paleo diet who are OK with high carb paleo diets but even so it's hard to find a good source of carbs. How many sweet potatoes can one eat?

Do you find the whey protein fattening? I am considering adding it to shakes because I need to put on weight.
01-24-2013, 03:50 PM   #5
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I wouldn't say fattening really, it's only an extra 140-150 calories a day but most of that is protein.

I mean it depends on the brand but most whey protein things only have a few grams of carb/fat.
01-24-2013, 04:01 PM   #6
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With a true Paleo diet you can eat potatoes and fruit. You are only encouraged to limit carbs if you are trying to eat Paleo and lose weight. You can gain quite a bit of weight on nuts, fruit, meat, potatoes, and eggs. White potatoes are technically in the original paleo diet. Some who like paleo have suggested they be cut only for calorie purposes. I read a great article on this explaining that potatoes should be eaten depending on your body type ~ if you are a Frodo, you should eat lots of potatoes and if you are a Sam, you should watch potato intake. It is easy to get too many calories on fruit and potatoes.

If you are doing a true Paleo diet then you are removing grains but not carbs. Sugar is not an option on paleo and sugar is highly inflammatory so no you shouldn't be making up the difference in sugar. You can use real honey and real maple syrup though.
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01-24-2013, 04:12 PM   #7
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But isn't honey high in sugar?
01-24-2013, 04:29 PM   #8
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But isn't honey high in sugar?

The goal is to remove refined sugars not natural sugars. It is refined sugars that are so inflammatory. Common sense tells you that you don't want to drink honey by the cupfuls. All things in moderation Just know that you can be paleo and get sufficient calories and carbs from fruit, natural honey, nuts, meat, and veggies. The big key is good fat. You drizzle olive or coconut oil on salads and on veggies, you make homemade olive oil mayo and use it for sauces, etc. If you just eat salad and chicken breast, of course you will lack in carbs. It is just a different way of thinking ~ you push good fat and you get your carbs from things other than grain Switch your mindset and it is easy peasy.
01-24-2013, 06:54 PM   #9
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I've tried the drinking honey thing, don't do it lol. I thought it would make my sore throat better last week-Nope! Definitely fills the sweet tooth though lol.

Also, I can appreicate you sharing your story with "failure" although I wouldn't consider yourself failing by any means. A very large portion of people don't want to commit to adjusting their diet but even just attempting the diets like you have is something to be proud of and something I wouldn't consider as much loss. I could be wrong, but I guess you eat healthier now overall as well even after just cutting out some bad foods and realizing how bad they really are. Besides, you gave the diet a go and it didn't work so you look for another option. I think too many people are too quick to go right to the biggest medicine without exhausting their other options first, because MANY people have success with diet.

I'm sorry it didn't work for you, but thanks for sharing your experiences. Myself, I'd probably doubt the diet route was all success stories and no failed attemtps, because we all know nothing works like that.

I've personally had a lot of success so far with the SCD diet but it does take a lot of work, and its something to really get used too. I could cry thinking about potatoes because I miss them so much but I feel like even if this diet doesn't work for me, I feel I've adapted to eating so much healthier that grabbing a chocolate bar or some ice cream doesn't even really appeal to me anymore. I feel like if for whatever reason it stops working, I've still taken something away from it because I've became much healthier.

I still don't know why potatos aren't allowed on the scd because they can grow naturally but when you think about stuff like pasta it really makes sense to me how it could do damage on the body. I don't know about you but I certainly haven't heard of picking noodles off a pasta tree.

Its more than a diet change, its a lifestyle change and I commend you for giving it a try, because many people think we are crazy, stupid, you name it and would never try it for themselves.
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01-24-2013, 07:55 PM   #10
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Ah, that's not good. It is a shame that the two diets were not helpful. You gave them a good go though. They help some of us, but sadly not all. For me paleo was greatly helpful.

I belong to Robb Wolf's paleo newsletter. He a leading paleo diet writer. In the past he has written about his battle with ulcerative colitis, how his condition was worsening to the point that he was fearful he was on his way to having his colon removed. At first he tried a vegetarian diet but it didn't help. He dropped from 180 to 140lbs and was in a good deal of pain the whole time. Then learning about Professor Arthur Devany and I believe studying under Dr. Cordain, a leading paleo researcher, changed his diet to paleo. Remarkably his UC situation cleared up. I mention this as with his e-mail today he makes a mention about his past poor gut health, with the addition that the diet helps some, and in some situations can be "potentially disastrous."
01-24-2013, 08:38 PM   #11
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Many here will know that for months I was gung-ho about my paleo diet and truly believed it might be the answer. Years back I was a vegan for many years. Having tried two "radical" diets I want to comment on my experience. I am by no means saying these diets don't help people but often you only see positive testimonials and I wanted to share how these diets did not work for me.

The Paleo Diet:
I think that as a result of cutting out dairy that my bones and joint pain has gotten very bad. I did not have much trouble in this area prior to this diet. Cutting out dairy and wheat forced me to seek out carbs for energy from higher fiber foods which further irritated my gut lining. I lost nearly 50 pounds on this diet in a few short months and have severe diarrhea, bone pain and fatigue. I did not have a good experience with this diet.

The Vegan diet:
I was vegan for many years, prior to even having crohn's. I was not a healthy vegan per se because I opted for lots of processed foods like soy burgers, tofurkey, etc and think the diet shift may have kicked in any predisposition I had to crohn's disease. I think a vegan diet high in beans, whole grains, vegetables, fruit, nuts and seeds is incredibly healthy but again worry about the amount of fiber and it's impact on a diseased gut. There are also areas of caution as there is no plant source of vit b12 and it is more challenging to obtain adequate amounts of protein, vit D, calcium, iron, zinc, and other vitamins & nutrients.

I truly support those embarking on these dietary changes. I more than anyone want to see a natural alternative to medicine. I just also want it to be known that I got into a really bad place by going this route. I am open to trying diets in the future but probably nothing that is so radical to cut out entire food groups.

I just realized that my first responses were to Price's comments about sugary carbs and I never actually responded to your original post as planned.

I am sorry that the diets didn't work for you. I can see how the increased roughage could be a problem for some. With E we have had to alter the SCD a tiny bit ~ removing beef, most raw veggies, and raw fruit. I hope that he will heal enough to try to introduce those in the future. We'll see I hope that you will find something that works for you. I truly do! Keep us posted
01-24-2013, 08:43 PM   #12
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I still don't know why potatos aren't allowed on the scd because they can grow naturally but when you think about stuff like pasta it really makes sense to me how it could do damage on the body. I don't know about you but I certainly haven't heard of picking noodles off a pasta tree.
I think this is why potatoes are one of the first foods some add to the SCD. With E we will add them after he is 1 year symptom free. I would love for his future (more long-term diet) to include potato, cocoa powder, and a very occasional gluten free treat (like a cake for Birthday or Christmas). I really don't ever see him returning to glutinous grains or regular consumption of non-glutinous grains.
01-25-2013, 03:43 AM   #13
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It is a shame that you didn't have better results on this diet,
I'm still of the opinion that your execution of the diet may have contributed to the unsatisfactory results.
I think that as a result of cutting out dairy that my bones and joint pain has gotten very bad.
I'd be amazed if it is avoiding dairy that is causing bone and joint pain, but it should be easy to check. Are you taking krill oil and D3? Try lactose free dairy (hard cheese, scd yougurt) to see if it improves, then add back in lactose dairy to see if there is a change, but this only works if nothing else in the diet has changed
(I guess that you are making the link between calcium and dairy? - much research shows that calcium from plant sources is more readily absorbed and large dairy intake may actually lead to a net calcium loss, but you can find research to suggest just about anything.)

Cutting out dairy and wheat forced me to seek out carbs for energy from higher fiber foods which further irritated my gut lining.
Every vegetable and fruit has carbs, and cooking them till soft (like the SCD intro diet) would remove most of the problem.
Fat is a great source of energy and it only takes a while to get past the 'low-carb flu'.
Honey is allowed, and then there is fruit.
(One medium banana has about 26.95 grams of carbs. A large banana has about 31.06 grams.)
Sorry, just doesn't wash with me, facing up to addiction is hard.

You definitely had bad results, but I don't think it should put you off a paleo/SCD/GAPS direction.
(GAPS stresses introducing good bacteria through fermented foods.)
You would need to start the diet in an appropriate stage and eat appropriately cooked foods.
Most of the problem is in the way we think about food, and confusing 'needs' with addictions.


I'm not trying to be harsh, sorry if it sounds like that.

Without knowing every aspect of your diet it is impossible to know what you were doing wrong or to make any recommendations, but I always found my symptoms would flare 3-4 weeks after a cheat, so one cheat every 3 weeks would keep me loosing weight and having D continuously.....
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01-25-2013, 06:18 AM   #14
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I really don't think it's a poor execution that gave unsatisfactory results, it just simply doesn't work for some people. I find it strange that your symptoms would flare up 3-4 weeks after a cheat meal, surely it'd flare up instantly? Or rather while that food is still inside you?

And alright, I know a banana has anywhere between 26-32g of carbs, but I need 300g of carbs a day :P You're not really going to tell me to eat 10 bananas a day are you? I just don't think the diets suit everyone's needs really.
01-25-2013, 08:50 AM   #15
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I really don't think it's a poor execution that gave unsatisfactory results, it just simply doesn't work for some people. I find it strange that your symptoms would flare up 3-4 weeks after a cheat meal, surely it'd flare up instantly? Or rather while that food is still inside you?

And alright, I know a banana has anywhere between 26-32g of carbs, but I need 300g of carbs a day :P You're not really going to tell me to eat 10 bananas a day are you? I just don't think the diets suit everyone's needs really.
There is no real good answer to this because, like Hugh said, we don't know how the diet was executed or even how well the diet is understood by the one attempting to execute it. I am not going to say that diet is for everyone because I simply can't claim to fully understand the workings of another person's body.

I am stuck on the carb thing though. I think you can get sufficient carbs on the diet. Also, if you understand the diet and execute it properly, you understand that not as many carbs are needed. You literally flip a switch in your body that changes it from a carb burning machine to a fat burning machine. By eating only good carbs and increasing really good fats, your body adapts and transitions. Your energy source becomes the fat and not the carbs. People who do not understand this will decrease the carbs and not increase the fat. I can't stress enough that you must increase the good fat. It is a difficult mindset to switch but until you change it, a diet like paleo will be incredibly difficult because your body will be lacking.

The dairy thing is another question of mine. You do get more readily available calcium from veggies than dairy. The leading dairy consuming countries are also the highest in osteoporosis. Human beings (particularly of the "western world") are the only creatures that I know of that find it necessary to "nurse" beyond the infant and toddler years. We are a non-dairy family and we have never had issues. Even with all of E's problems and so many of his nutrient lab levels being whack-o, his calcium has been fine. It makes me wonder if there isn't another problem going on that the original poster needs to ask their doctor about.
01-25-2013, 09:53 AM   #16
nogutsnoglory
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I can say that I fully understand the research and complexities of each of the diets. I have done lots of studying on nutrition and diet! The only possible poor part of execution of the paleo diet for me was that I couldn't fully abandon sweets and would need to eat more fruit and some honey and maple syrup and maybe the sugar content complicated things further. Aside from that I really followed the diet to a T.

It's hard to know what the right thing to do is because every BODY is different. I have seen the mixed research on whether calcium from dairy is helpful or harmful but I have decided I am just going to go with the majority of the world on this one. I will still try to incorporate plant based sources of calcium but don't want to risk it by eliminating dairy.

I was following a Weston A. Price diet for a while but now want to be low fiber and have resorted to eating some of the white flour garbage that doesn't irritate the gut. I truly want to eat dense nutrient based foods like sprouted whole grain products but I think I need to be in remission first.
01-25-2013, 10:38 AM   #17
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I think you are trying and for that...kudos!

I hope you didn't think I was insinuating that you didn't know the diet or wasn't sticking to it to a T, I was only stating that we didn't know that bit of info. I was also mainly referring to the scores of people who do attempt diets, call them a fail, and either never understand them or never truly follow them (follow the diet 75% and cheat the other 25% of the time). Again, not saying this is you, but it isn't uncommon to hear those stories. My dad is classic for this. He also has Hashimoto's and tried Whole 30 to see if he would feel any difference. He says he isn't sure if it works for him, but I know for a fact that he considers himself free to eat whatever he wants when he dines out. He dines out at least 4 times a week, sometimes more. Yet he blames the diet. Eating Whole 30 at home and then dining out multiple times a week and eating bread and butter, fried foods, and dessert with ice cream...um, sorry, but that doesn't count as sticking to the diet. So there...there's my big ol' rant and it has nothing to do with you, lol.
01-25-2013, 11:00 AM   #18
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I was following a Weston A. Price diet for a while but now want to be low fiber and have resorted to eating some of the white flour garbage that doesn't irritate the gut. I truly want to eat dense nutrient based foods like sprouted whole grain products but I think I need to be in remission first.
If I can ask, what parts of Weston Price's ideas did you try? Some of his mentions intrigue me with observations of people seemingly being immune to TB bacteria. I've thought about trying a few of the ideas, with the vitamins in particular, but some ideas might not be ideal some say.
01-25-2013, 11:36 AM   #19
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nogutsnoglory, I had similar experiences. "Healthy" and alternative diets ruined my digestion, mainly because of too much fibre, and made me really unhealthy because I couldn't take in enough calories.

Elimination diets made no odds to me either, and cutting out sugar and processed foods was also a waste of time - I'm much happier and healthier eating a balanced, "Western" diet.

It's also so great to be able to eat socially without worrying about whether I'm sticking to my diet or not.

If a diet works for someone, mentally and physically, then they should stick to it. And if someone's ill it's worth trying different diets to see what makes a difference. But no diet's going to work the same for everyone, and a conventional diet is by far the best option for me.

Last edited by UnXmas; 01-26-2013 at 04:48 AM.
01-25-2013, 11:51 AM   #20
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I definitely agree that some people claim to adhere to a diet but don't really follow it's principles and it's unfair to blame it on the diet if it doesn't work.

As for Weston Price diet, I don't know how much I agree with the foundation but I believe in the basics of all these diets in that they advocate eating REAL FOOD. If a caveman wouldn't recognize the ingredient than it's probably not real food. So I believe in staying as much as possible away from processed food, artificial colors, chemicals, etc. I think whole food is best, organic, pasture raised, full fat and vitamin rich foods that have not been denatured.
01-25-2013, 05:57 PM   #21
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I really don't think it's a poor execution that gave unsatisfactory results, it just simply doesn't work for some people.
We will never know because we will never know exactly how people execute the diet, and because individuals will need to tweak the diet to suit. As nogutsnoglory stated “The only possible poor part of execution of the paleo diet for me was that I couldn't fully abandon sweets “

I find it strange that your symptoms would flare up 3-4 weeks after a cheat meal, surely it'd flare up instantly? Or rather while that food is still inside you?
Some foods would have an instant reaction, Lactose for example. I barely made it home -and that would have been embarrassing! But these foods caused temporary discomfort, bloating, a bout of diarrhoea etc.
Other foods would cause a flare up in the ulceration after 3 weeks (unable to prove obviously, but this happened consistently.)
In one case I ate chips and 3 weeks later had full on symptoms, another with wheat, another with alcohol and so on. Once i had bought the symptoms back it required very little to keep them and absolute strictness to heal

I think it is important to differentiate between foods that cause an instant reaction and those that actually cause the disease.
If I eat yogurt and have the shits then it's not a flare, it's my already impaired intestine dumping something that I can't handle.
If I eat nuts or veggies and have pain then it's not a flare, it's sharp hard little chunks scraping over an ulcerated sore.

If I eat a 'safe food' like white bread and feel fine until 2 to 4 weeks later when I feel the effects of the war going on in my intestine (overgrowth of bad bacteria combined with intestinal permeability, leading to immune reaction and ulceration) then how many people will pick up on what's going on? Not many as they will blame what they ate yesterday.


And alright, I know a banana has anywhere between 26-32g of carbs, but I need 300g of carbs a day :P You're not really going to tell me to eat 10 bananas a day are you? I just don't think the diets suit everyone's needs really.
That's exactly what i'm saying, eat nothing but 10 bananas a day..........
yeah, right
How bout 2 bananas, some blueberries, sweet potato, apple sauce, carrot, etc

Firstly, why do you 'need' 300g carbs a day?
So long as you consume enough protien and fat you 'need' zero carbohydrates.
The body can make it's required glucose from lactate and pyruvate (produced from glucose metabolism), glycerol (from fat metabolism) and some amino acids.
Different dietary regimes recommend different percentages of carbs, but even the RDA handbook states that there is no actual physiological requirement for dietary carbohydrate (and then recommends about 50% carbs)

300g = 1200 calories so that's about 50% - congrats, you have a government (and corporate) approved goal.(45 to 65 percent)

Keep in mind paleo doesn't have to be low carb, they just remind you that you don't really need it,

Paleo is about where those carbs come from, not how many
A low carb diet might be 0.5g/lb (75g/day at 150 lb)
'The Zone' 1-2/lb (150g to 300g/day at 150lb),
and a typical HighCarb 3-4g/lb (450/600g/day)
01-25-2013, 08:45 PM   #22
Price
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Because getting 300g carb from blueberries and other things is extremely expensive. I'm only a student! And getting carbs from something like carrot would be awful if you have a goal of 300g. Bear in mind there's less than 9g per 100g of carrots.

And are you saying some foods cause crohns? With the 3-4 week later flare up I mean. Is there any evidence in this sort of delayed immune response?

I know if you put yourself into ketosis your body will use fats for energy instead of carbs, I just don't see any benefits (nor reasons not to do it I'll add) to do it. I think there's an assumption made that because my diet isn't SCD/Paleo that it's less healthy, but honestly I'm going to have to say that's wrong. I can still eat vegetables and things on my current 300g carb diet and still get all the nutrients that you do. The only real difference is you've cut a lot of food out, which isn't to say it's unhealthy, it's just a shame to not eat food you can eat (without getting symptoms).

And yeah I have a "corporate" approved target. There's nothing wrong with that. There's crohn's in countries all over the world that doesn't really seem to be linked to carb consumption at all. I think it's just if this diet works for you, it's because you've dropped foods that were causing you problems. If it doesn't like it didn't for me or many other people, then we're probably still eating stuff that causes us harm. I think assuming it works and if someone says it didn't they didn't execute the diet properly is just counter-productive. It doesn't breed new insight or anything, it's just shutting off the people you disagree with.
01-25-2013, 11:55 PM   #23
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Because getting 300g carb from blueberries and other things is extremely expensive. I'm only a student!
I ate about four cups of blackberries yesterday and they were free
And getting carbs from something like carrot would be awful if you have a goal of 300g. Bear in mind there's less than 9g per 100g of carrots.
Wow, You really just don't get it do you.
First you want to know if you should just eat bananas, then you want to know if you should just eat carrots.....
Do you see a pattern there?
Eat a variety of plant material, they all have carbohydrates.
I know if you put yourself into ketosis your body will use fats for energy instead of carbs, I just don't see any benefits (nor reasons not to do it I'll add) to do it
It was you that said you “need” 300g of carbohydrates a day.
I'm just saying you don't need it, you want it.

And are you saying some foods cause crohns? With the 3-4 week later flare up I mean. Is there any evidence in this sort of delayed immune response?
Crohn's disease is a chronic inflammation of the intestine that leads to ulceration. It doesn't happen overnight

I think there's an assumption made that because my diet isn't SCD/Paleo that it's less healthy, but honestly I'm going to have to say that's wrong. I can still eat vegetables and things on my current 300g carb diet and still get all the nutrients that you do
You may be getting the same nutrients that I do, but you are also getting anti-nutrients that I avoid.
I can find hundreds of papers on it and have posted dozens
this isn't a paper but does reference a few...
http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.c...0is%20wheat%3F

The only real difference is you've cut a lot of food out, which isn't to say it's unhealthy, it's just a shame to not eat food you can eat (without getting symptoms).
Stop looking at the symptoms and look at the etiology
You can't change your genes but you can control intestinal permeability and influence intestinal bacteria. You can eat wheat without symptoms but it has been proven to alter intestinal permeability AND gut bacteria

There's crohn's in countries all over the world that doesn't really seem to be linked to carb consumption at all.
That's just bullshit.
The more processed the diet the higher the rate of ALL auto-Immune diseases and rates are rising quickly

If it doesn't like it didn't for me or many other people, then we're probably still eating stuff that causes us harm. I think assuming it works and if someone says it didn't they didn't execute the diet properly is just counter-productive.
If someone says 'paleo didn't work for me' i'll listen and try to work out why.
If someone says 'paleo with lollies didn't work for me' i'll tell them to try paleo

It doesn't breed new insight or anything, it's just shutting off the people you disagree with.
I love it when people disagree with me,
01-26-2013, 02:10 AM   #24
nogutsnoglory
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Hugh there is a human need for carbs. Yes we can live without it or on low amounts but it is hard to thrive. A diverse array of plant foods on paleo does not provide the amount of carbs people need. I was desperate for the energy source. Ketosis helped my gut but zapped my energy.

You are operating under the assumption that paleo is a cure and that if it doesn't work for someone they are doing something wrong. We are all different and some people just don't respond to these diets. If one could eat a high fiber paleo diet it would be a different story but we must avoid nuts and seeds, lots of fruit and nearly all veggies. All that is left is fish and meat, nut butter and a small selection of fruit and veg.
01-26-2013, 04:55 AM   #25
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As for Weston Price diet, I don't know how much I agree with the foundation but I believe in the basics of all these diets in that they advocate eating REAL FOOD. If a caveman wouldn't recognize the ingredient than it's probably not real food. So I believe in staying as much as possible away from processed food, artificial colors, chemicals, etc. I think whole food is best, organic, pasture raised, full fat and vitamin rich foods that have not been denatured.
It seems I got it wrong in my previous post where I said I'd had similar experiences to you - while special diet plans have never worked for me, I'm quite happy eating processed foods, and need all the fat I can get.

My diet isn't as unhealthy as many Western diets are - I do eat home cooked meals and some fruit and veg, and never eat take-aways like McDonalds. I don't drink alcohol or coffee. But I also eat some ready-meals (i.e. ones for the microwave), sweets, buiscuits, lots of ice creams and pudding (goes down easy when you're sick), coke, refined breakfast cereals, etc.
01-26-2013, 09:13 AM   #26
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That is one thing about the paleo diet, I eat low fiber paleo meals. Even a bowl of blueberries is trouble for me and that's a problem as I love blueberries!

Weston Price was an interesting fellow. He visited many different cultures around the world in the 1930s, studying those that ate traditional diets, and their relatives that had moved into towns, eating modern fare, similar to what we eat today. What was remarkable was his observations between the two groups. Those that ate traditional whole foods rarely had dental cavities (Price was a dental investigator), rarely developed diseases, child birthing tended to be easy, etc. The other group eating modern foods where much like us, some healthy, but most had many medical issues, cavities, susceptible to TB, difficult child birthing, etc.

Basically, Price's book was about what he observed with how different diets can influence health in different manners.

"Nutrition and Physical Degeneration [Paperback]"

http://www.amazon.com/Nutrition-Phys...s=weston+price

New Expanded 8th edition with new photos and text.

An epic study demonstrating the importance of whole food nutrition, and the degeneration and destruction that comes from a diet of processed foods.


For nearly 10 years, Weston Price and his wife traveled around the world in search of the secret to health. Instead of looking at people afflicted with disease symptoms, this highly-respected dentist and dental researcher chose to focus on healthy individuals, and challenged himself to understand how they achieved such amazing health. Dr. Price traveled to hundreds of cities in a total of 14 different countries in his search to find healthy people. He investigated some of the most remote areas in the world. He observed perfect dental arches, minimal tooth decay, high immunity to tuberculosis and overall excellent health in those groups of people who ate their indigenous foods. He found when these people were introduced to modernized foods, such as white flour, white sugar, refined vegetable oils and canned goods, signs of degeneration quickly became quite evident. Dental caries, deformed jaw structures, crooked teeth, arthritis and a low immunity to tuberculosis became rampant amongst them. Dr. Price documented this ancestral wisdom including hundreds of photos in his book, Nutrition and Physical Degeneration.
With the vitamins, what interests me a little about Price's observations was how many cultures ate diets higher in the fat soluble vitamins. Vitamin A in particular interests me now, but that is somewhat controversial today as some will say that A can interfere with vitamin D3 - a vitamin that I've found helpful to me.

Here in the US companies are allowed to label foods with beta carotene as having vitamin A. What I've read of late is that while it is possible to convert beta carotene into vitamin A, our body is often inefficient at doing so. One article I read testing the conversion abilities found those in the study converted no beta carotene into vitamin A. Anyway! Something I'll have to look into myself one day, possibly, taking the RDA amount of vitamin A.
02-12-2013, 06:31 AM   #27
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Just re-listened to a podcast from SCDLifestyle, an interview with Paul Jaminet (from Perfect Health Diet)
- he's a smart guy but not a good speaker, skip straight to 16:00 but this bit struck me with the 'paleo didn't work' header -
Often there is a combination of factors involved......
a low carb diet will probably help if the problem is bacterial (starving the bad bacteria) but a low carb may make a protozoa or parasite infection worse (they can eat ketones and low carb will suppress immune function)

http://scdlifestyle.com/2012/09/the-...et-podcast-47/
21.10 - Diet as a diagnostic tool - basically,- a low carb diet will probably help if the problem is bacterial (starving the bad bacteria) but a low carb may make a protozoa or parasite infection worse (they can eat ketones and low carb will suppress immune function)
22.50 - different foods digested in different areas of intestine, so once again diet can indicate location of pathogens - (if sugar gives you problems it may be SIBO, if it's fibre then it may be colon, etc)
26.15 - the right tests - pathogens/parasites - dna pcr stool test - very reliable
- breath or blood test for SIBO (small intestinal bacterial overgrowth)
31.20 - fecal transplant (ewwwww but seems to work)
- fix diet first to get the most from medicine
33.10 - Vit D......
33.46 - iron - excessive just goes to microbes?
35.56 - grain toxins

great articles too,
http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2010/07...g-gut-disease/
http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2010/07...g-food-toxins/
http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2010/07...ugh-nutrition/
http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2010/07...ful-gut-flora/
"Now imagine an infected skin abscess, but with feces spread over it three times a day, or stomach acid and digestive enzymes. How quickly would you expect it to heal?

Commensal “probiotic” bacteria are like a mercenary army fighting on behalf of the digestive tract. By occupying the interior lining of the digestive tract, they deprive pathogens of a “home base” that is sheltered from immune attack. If commensal bacteria dominate the gut, the immune system can usually quickly defeat infections."
02-12-2013, 06:53 AM   #28
nogutsnoglory
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Not necessarily Hugh, it's when i took high dose probiotic that I took a turn for the worse.
02-12-2013, 07:06 AM   #29
hugh
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Not necessarily Hugh, it's when i took high dose probiotic that I took a turn for the worse.
Not necessarily what?

Firstly, correlation is not causation
this doesn't prove that the probiotics caused the problem (nor does it prove that they didn't).
From the last articles, which goes into probiotics
"Most supermarket probiotics contain Lactobacillus or Bifidobacterium species. These species are specialized for digesting milk; they populate the guts of infants as they start breastfeeding, and are used by the dairy industry to ferment cheeses and yogurt.

These supplements are very effective at fighting acute diarrhea from most food-borne infections. A fistful of probiotic capsules taken every hour will usually quickly supplant the pathogens and end diarrhea.

However, against more severe bowel diseases caused by chronic infections and featuring damaged intestinal mucosa, these species are usually not helpful. One issue is that they provide only a tiny part of a healthful adult microbiome. A recent study surveyed the bacterial species in the human gut, and found these species to be most abundant [2]:

-chart not shown, refer article-

As this figure shows, Bacteroides spp. are the most common commensal bacteria, with Bacteroides uniformis alone providing almost 10% of all bacterial genes in the gut. Lactobacillus and Bifidobacterium do not appear among the 57 most abundant species."

secondly, if it was the probiotics then it wasn't the diet

I'm just worried that you are throwing the baby out with the bathwater
02-12-2013, 11:23 AM   #30
nogutsnoglory
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Hugh my concern is you make broad statements as if they are scientific fact and the holy word. Many people here have tried probiotics with success and many others found they goto the bathroom more, have more gas and bloating.

My GI even said in some people probiotics could cause inflammation. I think overall probiotics are great but again it's important to keep in mind everyone responds differently and has different body parts.

My body has much less small intestine with creates SIBO and probiotics can serve an issue in this scenario when they back up into the wrong place.
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