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11-06-2014, 08:09 AM   #271
girlscout
 
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Hi Again Optimistic and others,

On Monday (day 1) , we started my Son on SCD Legal (homemade) EEN. That's right, pureed chicken soup, beef broth, grape juice grape juice gellatin, electrolyte water only. On day 1, he had a couple eggs mixed in, but based on the "the SCD guys" Flare control program, we eliminated eggs ( we had already eliminated dairy). I added SCD legal digestive enzymes on Day 2. On day 3 he reports he had "normal formed stools (twice). Today, Day three AM he reports another normal stool. Woo-hoo!

Today, I will add in apple sauce and some coconut oil. Tomorrow we will try a beef soup. Now for my dilemma...how long to continue as EEN (puree)? Wait for the inflamatory markers to come down?

He is still on pred. His doctor has been pushing to change therapies to get off pred (it's been about 2 mons.) (EEN was one of his suggestions to get off Pred, in lieu of Remicadee.) Today, I will inquire if the doc's ready to start taper now, or what the "indicator" is for tapering. Next we we go for more labs.

BTW, I don't think our Doc does fecal calprotectin test. What is it and should I request it? We mostly talk about CRP and ESR, although he runs many other tests (neutrophils, etc). If there's a reference plance for me to do the research to understand on these tests in relation to crohn's, Please send a link. Thanks.

Girlscout,
mom to 14yo boy
crohns since 10 yrs
Pred, 6mp
digestive enzymes, probiotics, multivit, omega 3, turmeric
11-06-2014, 09:10 AM   #272
baistuff
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A couple of disclaimers...

1) I am not a pediatrician. Kids are not little adults or vice versa. MANY conditions are approached differently in adults vs kids, so what I say does NOT apply to children. There may be something to SCD in kids based on some evidence and some anecdotal data- the adult and pediatric guts are completely different ecosystems and transit systems. For those that want to try diet manipulation, it is way to simplistic and scientifcally naive to do the same in an adult as in a child.


2) I fully believe diet impacts many diseases including and especially IBD, and needs to be part of any treatment program.



I find a huge inconsistency with SCD, that the fact that something like a spice may have an anticaking agent with a trace of a carb so it's completely out, versus bourbon and scotch which are full of calories directly from corn/grain.

I have asked questions on this board, elsewhere and have never gotten anything close to a reasonable answer. My theory is that (again, we are limiting this discussion to 18 years old +) this is a disease which presents mostly in early adulthood during college and early working yeas. In my own practice, having nothing to do with IBD, you can tell young adults to exercise, cut out gluten, smoking, etc... The one sure way to turn away a college, grad school, entry level job starter is to tell them they cannot drink. I'm not talking fall down drunks here or weekend drinkers. I'm simply talking about people who go to parties, family events, watching the Jets on Sunday with some friends, happy hours, or other professional conferences and meetings.

I think the SCD folks know this, and knew that the easiest way for the book to be tossed into the garbage would be to tell 18-35 year olds (and this is the group most likely to try this diet) they must avoid alcohol. The originator of SCD wrote the book in the treatment of a 5 year old- obviously alcohol was not even an issue.

I also find it baffling that a diet soda is SOMETIMES ok, but not others. What happened to 100% fanatical or it fails? Artifical sweeters have been found to be immunogenic, irritating to the gut, but once in a while they are OK? Also what difference does it make if coffee is weak or strong? define the moment when coffee becomes strong vs. weak? Also, the issue with sugars, as mentioned in prevous posts. So many inconsistencies.

My suggestion. Keep a food diary. Find what agrees, what doesn't agree. Fanaticism is the last thing and IBDer needs. We are already wound up so tight when it comes to food, GI issues. I think the psychologic effects of the diet only exacerbate this.

End of rant.
11-06-2014, 11:46 AM   #273
mvond5
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Hello my son is 15 and has been on the SCD for almost 3 years. He has made some modifications to allow the freedom to go out with his friends.
Chick fil la, rice products, potatoes chips(plain)
He has reduced his stools, continues to gain healthy weight, has finally made it to 6 ft.,
But the doctor says his calprotectin test is showing inflammation. (But he feels fine) *reports tired, sad, couple times a month a little pain in stomach*
We do not want to put him on medicine at such a young age so I have seen a couple time people using LDN along with the SCD.
What is your thoughts and options?
Thanks for your help
Medicine that was to put him on is Methotrexate
11-06-2014, 08:40 PM   #274
my little penguin
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The thing is SCD may have worked but if the fecal cal is increased he may be flaring even without outwards signs long term simmering infllammation or even shorter regular inflammation can cause a lot of damage you can't see. Once there is damage that is harder to fix.
I understand your fears.
We have a parents group
I know a few were on LDN
Kimmidwife jmrogers4
Farmwife
They can give you a few tips .

Fwiw my kiddo started on remicade at age 8.
And now is on humira plus MTX at age 10.
At least for my kiddo diet was never enough wish it was.
We tried all of them .

Good luck
Parents group
http://www.crohnsforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=49
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11-06-2014, 09:19 PM   #275
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Yes I understand the not wanting to put young kids on the meds.
We tried it ALL, diet, supplements, EEN, LDN
and it still wasn't enough to give her a good quality of life.
Now onto Remicade and its amazing.
I am glad we did do the LDN. She had no side effect from it. It just didn't work.

Just keep up with the docs, testing and monitoring his health.
Their are so many people on this forum that will sadly tell you how this disease snuck up and got them.
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I'm mom to............... Little Farm Girl 8 yr old
Ibd (microscopic)
(12/28/12),
dx Juvenile Arthritis
(12/13/13)
dx Erthema Nodosum
(8/13/14)
Bladder and Bowel Dysfunction
(10/14/13)
Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome dx (1/26/17)
Remicade started on (9/8/14)Every 4 wks
Azathroprine started on 10/9/15
EN/EEN- since (1/12/13)
Past Meds- LDN, Humira, Pred, MTX, Sulfasalazine
11-06-2014, 10:03 PM   #276
Pilgrim
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Hello my son is 15 and has been on the SCD for almost 3 years. He has made some modifications to allow the freedom to go out with his friends.
Chick fil la, rice products, potatoes chips(plain)
He has reduced his stools, continues to gain healthy weight, has finally made it to 6 ft.,
But the doctor says his calprotectin test is showing inflammation. (But he feels fine) *reports tired, sad, couple times a month a little pain in stomach*
We do not want to put him on medicine at such a young age so I have seen a couple time people using LDN along with the SCD.
What is your thoughts and options?
Thanks for your help
Medicine that was to put him on is Methotrexate
If you are hesitant to start meds with him, then I would watch for other signs of inflammation, while pulling back to a strict adherance to the diet. It sounds like there are a lot of good signs there - like the stools and weight gain. Also, I have noticed with my own child, that if she is coming down with a cold or flu, she'll go into a mini-flare - so maybe watch and see if there is something else going on - it is that time of year when we all get sick.

I have the same kind of thoughts about the meds. I am researching our options just in case - but at the same time I see a kid who is more active and happier than she ever was. I wonder if I should mess with a good thing.

I'm not sure about LDN. If you go into the med support forum maybe someone there will be able to give you some advice from experience. I thought I'd encourage you with the diet since we are here in the SCD etc..support group - where people are trying very hard to work with a diet.

I hope you keep posting and let us know what happens. We're also dealing with a wonky fecal calpro. I think that I mishandled the sample with improper storage. We are repeating the test and I am going to be careful to refrigerate. Not sure how much of a difference it will make - but hopeful.

Sorry that was so long. What does your son want to do? I have teenage boys too (not IBD) they are not the easiest to talk to.
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Mom to daughter,age 5, diagnosed at age 3 with Crohn's Disease
Current Treatment: Humira (started 12/2014) moved to weekly injections (07/2015), Back to 50% EN orally. Zinc supplements. Calprotectin through the roof.
Previous Treatment: Azathioprine (discontiued 09/14 due to Pancreatitis) Flagyl, Sulfasalazine, EEN, Iron,Vit D, Zinc, SCD
11-06-2014, 10:12 PM   #277
Jmrogers4
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We had good luck with LDN for a little while. The thing about it is if it's going to work it takes a long time to get there and for us an infection/antibiotics brought on a flare that would just could not get him out of. My son was on it for about 18 months, took 8 months to get to remission we were there for about 5 months before C-diff and spent another 6 months trying to get him out of a flare. He did not gain weight while on it and had virtually no appetite (maybe a side effect) and only grew about an inch. By comparison he has gained about 27 pounds and grown nearly 5 inches since starting remicade in January.
We started SCD while on LDN, still took us 8 months to get to total remission. But he felt great and who knows what would have happened or how long remission would have lasted without Cdiff throwing him off.
One of the forums long time LDN users has just had to recently switch medications as well as the LDN was no longer working or like us something happened which caused a flare and the LDN was no longer enough to pull him out.
Like farmwife I'm glad we tried it but didn't realize how good he could be/feel until we found what really worked for him. Also thought that maybe there was issues do to his being a teenage boy and hormones etc played into its efficiancy.
But as MLP said be careful of simmering inflammation. This was an issue for us and the blood labs were all in normal range but fecal calprotectin showed inflammation which was confirmed with MRE.
One other thing in regards to LDN it does pass the blood/brain barrier and my son would do this weird head/neck roll kind of tick on it we called it the bobble head, (enough so other people noticed and commented asking if he had something wrong with his neck, went to massage therapist, DO thinking it was an injury but it persisted) it showed up after he had been on LDN for a while and continued the time he was on LDN. It has also gone away now since he has been off it. Coincidence? Possibly/Probably but in the interest of full disclosure since not a lot of testing has been done in regards to LDN especially in the pediatric population I feel I should mention it.
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Jacqui

Mom to Jack (18) dx Crohn's 2/2010
Vitamin D -2000mg
Remicade - started 1/9/14; 7.5ml/kg every 6 weeks
Centrum for Him teen multivitamin
Past meds: Imuran/Azathioprine; allopurinol; methotrexate; LDN; Prednisone; Apriso; Pentasa; EEN

Husband dx Crohn's 3/1993
currently none due to liver issues
11-10-2014, 04:40 PM   #278
hugh
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I find a huge inconsistency with SCD, that the fact that something like a spice may have an anticaking agent with a trace of a carb so it's completely out, versus bourbon and scotch which are full of calories directly from corn/grain. .
I prefer to think of them as small inconsistencies on the fringe of a hugely beneficial but still flawed diet.
(Glass half full of half empty?)

Can i ask if these issues have been enough to stop you from trying the diet?
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11-10-2014, 05:49 PM   #279
baistuff
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I prefer to think of them as small inconsistencies on the fringe of a hugely beneficial but still flawed diet.
(Glass half full of half empty?)


In a treatment modality that warns that anything but "fanatical dedication" is destined to fail, I think they have the responsibility then to iron out ANY inconsistency.


Can i ask if these issues have been enough to stop you from trying the diet?
The main reason I don't do the diet is that I'm not that bad off since being in a trial for FMT. Labs are all within normal limits and my last scope a couple of months back looked fine. I do have some mild symptoms (may be more IBS than IBD now) and some foods I still need to stay away from, but what variables would I be modifying, and how would I track success? If anything, since I would consider my FMT successful- at least for now, my thought would be that starving bacteria would cause the transplanted guys to be killed as well, and that's the LAST thing I would want.

FMT is not a cure by any means, and no doubt I will flare again, but for now, I don't think it's necessary. In terms of diet, I think it's also way too simplistic to think in terms of just carbs and bacteria. Resistant starches actually improve colonic butyrate, so things like potatoes should be fine. Gluten is an issue for many, not really because of bacteria, but because in many it's immunogenic. Even those with conditions other than IBD and no problems with gut flora do better off gluten because in some people gluten triggers immune reactions. Why? who knows.

I've done my own food diaries for days at a time (I've been at this about 11 years now.) Rice, potatoes never bother me, in fact- they are my go to foods when things have gotten rough. For a book to declare them "illegal" without controlled studies or looking at my scope or biopsies is ridiculous.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Inflammation in the TI is not the same at all as inflammation in the rectum. stenosing and fistulizing disease is not the same as nonspecific inflammation. Kids are not adults. Other medical conditions, medications, environment etc... all play a role in this disease. To say "cut out all complex carbs and all will be well" is simplistic, scientifically unproven, and in some potentially dangerous. It's also potentially socially isolating in a condition that already does that. It can create a fear of food in a disease that already has apprehension of food. Don't get me wrong, diet is a HUGE part of IBD management. But at this point the best we can all do is trial and error.

Show me labs, scopes, biopsies of those on the diet alone, diet and meds, meds alone, and let's start putting real data together.
11-12-2014, 11:07 PM   #280
Pilgrim
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Unfortunately, we have to drop the SCD for now. It seems like anytime we introduce any food at all, no matter how healthful and well planned, she goes into a flare. This is a definite pattern for her. So, we are back to EEN now and thinking through our options.

I guess she is one of the 25%. It is very disappointing as we had high hopes. She is very, very young though and I think that VEO-IBD is a different animal. Not sure.

It has been very beneficial for the rest of the family though and even though I do not have IBD, I am going to keep using it for other reasons for myself and keep elements for the other kids. It has been great learning a new way to eat.

I wont have a fecal calpro to post from just the diet as we are on EEN now.
11-13-2014, 08:54 AM   #281
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Hi Pilgrim, My son (14 YO) is still doing well on a pureed SCD diet, although really bored with the same thing every day. Most everything is pureed to the point of being drinkable except applesauce which is more like baby food consistency (stage1). He reports that his BMs continue to get less frequent. Sounds like he is coming from a better place than your daughter, though. I agree that SCD may just not work for everyone at every place in their journey. Right now I am wondering if it would be safe to supplement with something like Ensure or Boost, but I am afraid the dairy with throw him off. He is cows milk sensitve. Know anything that's palatable that is non dairy?

I hope you find a way to improve your daughters situation! Best wishes. It is so hard to watch our children suffer.

Mom to 14yo, CD, 6mp, pred, SCD last 6 weeks pureed. Before that he was SCD for 2 years and went off of a year and flared again. Dx 2010
11-17-2014, 01:25 AM   #282
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I'm coming out of a super restrictive paleo/scd diet, I'm still grain free, but I'm able now to tolerate yogurt / cheese, cooked green leafy vegetables. I'm worried about ever introducing raw vegetables. before I was diagnosed I ate hearty tahini kale salads and hummus all the time, I'd be so nervous now to eat raw vegetables or beans. won't raw vegetables and beans be just as bloating and cramp causing as grains? maybe I'm just traumatized from getting sick, I remember a time where I couldn't even eat applesauce. does anybody have positive experiences with raw greens and beans?
11-17-2014, 01:28 AM   #283
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I'm on humira and asacol easing off of prednisone, down to 15mg. I'm having virtually no episodes doing really well, hopefully in remission soon. I feel like I'm in remission, just waiting for a doctor to confirm that.
11-17-2014, 06:14 AM   #284
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Baistuff,

I think it's important to remember, when approaching these dietary plans, that everyone's body is different. That being said - the SCD provides a rudimentary "framework" on which each dieter must build and extrapolate upon to achieve his or her own harmony.

For example: some people on the diet can eat dairy products without any ramifications whatsoever. Cheese and yogurt have no effect upon these individuals, while others suffer due to the complex Casein protein that resides within cow's milk.

You asked specifically why honey and other products are allowed, and how quickly these products are absorbed. I believe that the diet leaves out one key piece - eating MUST be done in moderation. For the SCD'er who consistently gorges themselves on honey, sugar (from fruit), almonds, nuts, peanut butter, and other, difficult to digest foods, it's quite likely that healing will be delayed, due to the fact that, at the beginning of the diet, the intestinal tract is heavily damaged and can't properly digest foods (hence the intro diet).

Throughout my experience on the plan - I've found that small, snack size meals are paramount in my personal success - I never eat "three square meals" a day anymore - in fact, I generally eat about 1/3 of what a normal portion would be 5 - 6 times a day.

Remember: food is an equation. Your body requires calories to function. Your requirements are determined by your energy expenditure, your metabolism, and your own personal needs. A lot of Americans eat to the point where they are stuffed - this is a huge no no on the SCD (from personal experience): even if you are consuming healthy, easy to digest sugars, an excess of these at one time will still allow bacteria to feed on something (they can use monosaccarides just as easy as us!).

Hope this helps. I know it is frustrating to not have specific answers, but a lot of the discussion behind this diet is conjecture anyways, thanks to our wonderful, greed driven pharmaceutical industry that only wants to fund studies on products that will generate revenue.

Alex
11-17-2014, 09:16 AM   #285
baistuff
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Baistuff,

I think it's important to remember, when approaching these dietary plans, that everyone's body is different. That being said - the SCD provides a rudimentary "framework" on which each dieter must build and extrapolate upon to achieve his or her own harmony.

For example: some people on the diet can eat dairy products without any ramifications whatsoever. Cheese and yogurt have no effect upon these individuals, while others suffer due to the complex Casein protein that resides within cow's milk.

You asked specifically why honey and other products are allowed, and how quickly these products are absorbed. I believe that the diet leaves out one key piece - eating MUST be done in moderation. For the SCD'er who consistently gorges themselves on honey, sugar (from fruit), almonds, nuts, peanut butter, and other, difficult to digest foods, it's quite likely that healing will be delayed, due to the fact that, at the beginning of the diet, the intestinal tract is heavily damaged and can't properly digest foods (hence the intro diet).

Throughout my experience on the plan - I've found that small, snack size meals are paramount in my personal success - I never eat "three square meals" a day anymore - in fact, I generally eat about 1/3 of what a normal portion would be 5 - 6 times a day.

Remember: food is an equation. Your body requires calories to function. Your requirements are determined by your energy expenditure, your metabolism, and your own personal needs. A lot of Americans eat to the point where they are stuffed - this is a huge no no on the SCD (from personal experience): even if you are consuming healthy, easy to digest sugars, an excess of these at one time will still allow bacteria to feed on something (they can use monosaccarides just as easy as us!).

Hope this helps. I know it is frustrating to not have specific answers, but a lot of the discussion behind this diet is conjecture anyways, thanks to our wonderful, greed driven pharmaceutical industry that only wants to fund studies on products that will generate revenue.

Alex



You were doing great until your last paragraph. I know we are just about at the Kennedy anniversary, but this is not a great place for conspiracy theories.

And yeah, you know what? Drug companies, just like your dry cleaner, pizza shop, macy's, your mechanic, attorney and doctor all want to make money. Those evil people wanting to make money off consumers. What are they going to think of next? Charging 200 dollars a pop to see the Giants throw 5 interceptions?

However, until you bring proof of someone sabatoging progress in the fight of disease, please stay away from all this conspiracy crap. It wasn't long ago that life expectancy was barely past 50 in the US. Now it's pushing 80. We have drugs to prevent cholesterol build up, 9 different mechanisms to lower blood pressure, blood sugar, various meds to control inflammatory conditions, incredible devices like pacemakers, LVADs, we can transplant organs and all of this is brought to you by drug companies. Want to protest drug companies? They are all evil? SCD solves all? Stop all your meds and go fanatic SCD and tell me how you are doing in 6 months.

As far as SCD, your argument about portion size certainly is plausible. My counter to that is that if it is indeed portion related, then certain amount of complex carbs should be able to be broken down early in digestion as well and (assuming no gastric, duodenal or jejunal disease) should not cause problems. Of course defining that amount becomes very tricky. The other issue is that IBD is simply more than bacteria. We can manipulate bacteria very well. If all it was about was killing bacteria, well the bad guys would be gone in a few weeks, months at most. Replace the good guys, and in theory within a few months you should be able to quit the diet and be "cured." But of course it doesn't work that way. There is nothing addressing the immune response nor the host defect.

Which I way a revert back to my original statement. There is no question diet not only interacts with gut bacteria but also the immune system. But what that interaction is can vary depending on age, location of disease, duration of disease, severity of disease, maybe even gender. There is no one size fits all answer to any other this. Get a journal, keep a close tally of symptoms, and to be even more scientific get labs, and even better, some imaging or a scope after diet manipulation. See what works and what doesn't.

Personally, I can't go near a drop of milk, but rice and potatoes are lifesavers. And I've got my last scope to prove it.
12-03-2014, 09:16 PM   #286
Ann Morgan
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I am not following any of these but I have a question about Whey Protein Isolate. Do any of you use this as a daily dietary supplement ? Spouts Grocery Store sells it in those bins, you can buy a little or a lot. I went to a Nutrionist/ Dietician in May. I told her all about my health issues, medications, etc. She gave me some goals, recommendations and some ingredient / ideas for smoothies. The Smoothies would contain fruit, vegetable, dairy, protein, flavoring. I have tried Whey Protein Isolate Powder a few times and also ground up flaxseed in my smoothies. I have Ulcerative Colitis, will this powder hurt me or help me ? I get so much conflicting information from the Internet about the powder. Thanks for your help.
12-04-2014, 01:51 PM   #287
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We are what we eat.
If you eat sick/diseased animals you will be sick/diseased
If you eat healthy animals you will be healthy
So following this logic you should eat live animals as oppose to dead ones??
12-04-2014, 03:06 PM   #288
Ann Morgan
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Sure... the fresher the better but frozen meat is fine as long as it comes from a healthy animal.
Does it really matter what cows eat ? Eventually they end up at the same place......the slaughterhouse.

http://www.oprah.com/oprahshow/Insid...terhouse-video.

This video was very short. But there are many others to watch that are much longer. Do you STILL want to eat a cow ?
12-04-2014, 06:12 PM   #289
hugh
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Does it really matter what cows eat ?
of course it does........
on a health level......
Frankensteer

on an environmental level (if it's done right).........
The Straight Poop on Sustainable Farming
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_MRYSA5q1E
12-05-2014, 02:02 AM   #290
Ann Morgan
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Is it humane to rob an animal of its life just so we can have steak or turkey for dinner, when we have so many other options for dinner that don't involve taking a life ?

What exactly constitutes " humane slaughtering " ?

The question at hand is not whether to inhumanely or humanely slaughter meat.....the question is whether it's humane to take life or not.
12-05-2014, 02:11 AM   #291
Ann Morgan
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Since I am not using the SCD or Paleo or GAPS "diet", I will move on to another group.

I cannot eat eggs, most vegetables, most fruits, or nuts because they make me have diarrhea. So I guess Paleo is not for me.

The SCD is out for me too because I cannot eat : eggs, bacon, pork, almost every fruit, almost every vegetable, and nuts.

As far as the GAPS "diet" that is out for me too. I have no idea where I would buy duck, goose, pheasant, pigeon or quail and they don't seem appealing to eat. Fermented vegetables and sauerkraut juice don't sound too refreshing to drink. And I am confused, you can have coffee, gin, scotch, vodka and wine ? I have acid reflux and I cannot drink alcohol.


Last edited by Ann Morgan; 12-05-2014 at 02:36 AM.
12-10-2014, 09:21 PM   #292
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Hey all,

I am not doing SCD/Paleo/Perfect health diet, but I am working with an acupuncturist. My diet right now consists of cooked meats and veggies (mostly leafy greens) - no butter or oil. I mostly make soup just because it's easiest to digest, and I drink herbs 2x a day. I was doing so well, my energy is up, and my bowels are more steady. I was doing fairly well for about 2 months, but today I fell off the wagon big time. I am trying to think of why it happened, but a lot of things have been stressing me out lately (new to a job, trying to figure out what to do with my life, etc), but I mostly feel as though I struggled today because I am doing this alone. I feel horrible about it (emotionally, but I am sure I will feel horrible physically tomorrow). I am reminding myself that it will get better, and I will feel better in the long run.
12-10-2014, 09:37 PM   #293
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So sorry you stumbled today. If you feel bad tomorrow, it will serve as a reminder to get back on that wagon!
12-13-2014, 08:19 AM   #294
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Thank you! I did feel bad the next day, and I am just thankful it wasn't painful enough to stop me from working. And I don't think it was really worth it taste-wise; it was more of an emotional impulse.
12-13-2014, 03:33 PM   #295
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Glad to hear it!
12-18-2014, 11:41 AM   #296
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Where to start?,
I did wonder about the inconsistencies and contradictions for a while, but stopped once i worked out that it is a diet created by a doctor (Sidney Valentine Haas) back in the 1930's(?), based on his observations that carbohydrates caused digestive issues for many people (he worked alot with celiac disease and digestive issues).
He didn't get everything 100% percent but it worked for alot of people.
(For example, eliminating all carbs eliminates all gluten so it cured celiacs but was far more restrictive than they required)

Elaine Gottschall, whose daughter was helped by Dr Haas, popularised the diet with her book ( Breaking the Vicious Cycle: Intestinal Health Through Diet) in the 70's.
By all accounts she was a bit of a battleaxe (i mean that in a good way, strong and determined, not to be crossed) and laid down the law, not allowing any changes and making determinations on what else is legal and illegal.
She went back to school (at 47) and received a Masters degree in biochemistry and continued on with graduate studies in nutrition.

It is a trademarked system and it is not perfect,
It eliminates many things and there is no way to tell which eliminations were required for each individual and which ones were not necessary.

apparently "Dr. Natasha Campbell-McBride has taken SCD and evolved it further to create a full protocol for healing digestive disorders and subsequent issues." and packaged it as the GAPS diet, which i think has some improvements.

I view it (SCD) as a good starting point since there is so much information available but would suggest that people move to a low to medium carb paleo diet ('Perfect Health Diet'-ish) if they can reintroduce safe paleo carbs (tubers and maybe white rice) without any issues.

I'm grateful to the SCD diet because it lead me to paleo and my belief is that that's why it works
We eat shit processed crap, too many carbs of poor quality, and inflammatory seed oils and it messes with out gut bacteria, our immune system and our health in general.

I don't even think that the nitty-gritty nit picking details matter, I've talked to people who are 100% SCD and eat shitloads of SCD muffins and just plain crap that happens to be SCD legal but isn't a balanced diet.
Put you effort into REAL FOOD (and in my world grains and seed oils ain't real food).

I thought this was a great post about diets and explains why i'm not as zealous as i used to be......
Raw Vegan, Blood Type O, Paleo, Low Carb High Fat Diets – what do they have in common?
http://paleozonenutrition.com/2012/1...ave-in-common/
Apologies for bringing up an older post that I've just now caught up with, but if you view these diets as quite imprecise and needing to be adjusted for each individual, doesn't this contradict the emphasis on sticking to them 100%? I've read many posts here where it's stated that people can't expect a diet to work if they cheat at all, and SCD, paleo, etc. seem to be characterised by extreme preciseness.
12-18-2014, 10:37 PM   #297
hugh
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However, until you bring proof of someone sabatoging progress in the fight of disease, please stay away from all this conspiracy crap.
"Between 2004 and 2010, major drug companies paid out $7 billion in fines, penalties and lawsuits for fraudulently marketing their drugs, making misleading claims about the drugs safety and hiding or altering studies which indicated evidence of harm. The threat of massive payouts does not appear to offer much deterrent."

How can garlic powder or herbal tea be illegal because they may have a trace of carb or caking agent, but bourbon which is majority corn, or other whiskey which has a ton of grain (and based on the calories in liquor that grain is still there big time) is fine?
the calories in distilled spirits are NOT carbohydrates, they are alcohol.
Different spirits may have flavours and sugars added.

Also, bacteria can feed on monosacharides very easily. So how is honey or anything with glucose in it OK? How can one be sure those are broken down in the upper tract and none of those sugars get to the TI or colon? And also, many dissacharides are also broken down early in the tract, so why are those out? Would it also depend on where one's disease is located.

Please answer with science and evidence, not just to read a book or what it says on some website.
Your having a laugh, aren't you,
Go do an advanced degree in digestive disorders if you want to understand everything.(but even then you will still be scratching the surface

If, for whatever reason, more carbohydrates enter the small intestine than can be absorbed there then those that are not absorbed will pass on to the colon to feed bacteria.
This is pretty simple to understand.

There are many reasons that carbs might not be absorbed, from absence of the correct enzyme (lactase to digest lactose), excess mucus preventing enzymes in brush border reaching carbohydrates, intestinal damage, just too many carbs, food toxicity, and a thousand others.
But one of the main reasons is the complexity of the carb (according to SCD and sounds sort of reasonable to me)

Then there are infinite combinations and permutations of interactions between differing ratios of hundreds of species of bacteria, genes, foods (and food-like-products, chemicals, fungus, protozoa, paracites,pesticides) and hosts in varying states of health.

Excluding the hard to digest carbs and limiting the easy to digest carbs greatly reduces the amount of food that reaches bacteria in the colon. This decreases the amount of bacteria and favours the bacteria that do not eat sugar.
This is pretty easy to understand.
The intricacies of the relationship between hundreds of species in a state of balance or imbalance and their effects on the host immune system?
That is something we are a long way from understanding.
12-19-2014, 10:33 AM   #298
baistuff
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"Between 2004 and 2010, major drug companies paid out $7 billion in fines, penalties and lawsuits for fraudulently marketing their drugs, making misleading claims about the drugs safety and hiding or altering studies which indicated evidence of harm. The threat of massive payouts does not appear to offer much deterrent."



the calories in distilled spirits are NOT carbohydrates, they are alcohol.
Different spirits may have flavours and sugars added.



Your having a laugh, aren't you,
Go do an advanced degree in digestive disorders if you want to understand everything
.(but even then you will still be scratching the surface

If, for whatever reason, more carbohydrates enter the small intestine than can be absorbed there then those that are not absorbed will pass on to the colon to feed bacteria.
This is pretty simple to understand.

There are many reasons that carbs might not be absorbed, from absence of the correct enzyme (lactase to digest lactose), excess mucus preventing enzymes in brush border reaching carbohydrates, intestinal damage, just too many carbs, food toxicity, and a thousand others.
But one of the main reasons is the complexity of the carb (according to SCD and sounds sort of reasonable to me)

Then there are infinite combinations and permutations of interactions between differing ratios of hundreds of species of bacteria, genes, foods (and food-like-products, chemicals, fungus, protozoa, paracites,pesticides) and hosts in varying states of health.

Excluding the hard to digest carbs and limiting the easy to digest carbs greatly reduces the amount of food that reaches bacteria in the colon. This decreases the amount of bacteria and favours the bacteria that do not eat sugar.
This is pretty easy to understand.
The intricacies of the relationship between hundreds of species in a state of balance or imbalance and their effects on the host immune system?
That is something we are a long way from understanding.



Not sure why/where the hostility is coming from. These are honest and frankly I think important questions. Seems to me on this board if one is skeptical about establishment s/he is hailed as wonderful. if I am skeptical about something out of the box and unproven I am horrible. Sure there are bad apples in pharma. Sure they have kicked the ball onto the green before. Yes, that sort of thing is horrible. But at least (here in the US) we have the FDA, and other outlets which regulate, oversee and try to hold companies accountable. Pharma also gives billions to charaties worldwide, and in the US any patient can all any drug company any time and work out reduced payments, rebates, and other ways to offset costs when insurance drops the ball. Pharma has saved many lives including many on this board. I have done a lot of reading online on SCD and I can't go 5 minutes without being told to buy a book. I'm sure it has helped many, but it is fair, responsible and downright our obligation to question it. I actually get more skeptical when folks bristle in defensiveness, like god forbid we should actually question something that seems inconsistent about the diet.

Now, back to the important issue at hand. I see your points about the different carbs, but many dissachs. are broken down in the duodenum. If seems logical that if I have no upper tract disease and am careful with portion size not to overburden the carb load (I admit that can be difficult to ascertain,) I should have no problem tolerating these foods in the right portions.

My issue with it at the end of the day is that blanket statements, 100% rigidity, and terms like "illegal" (implying almost criminal if done) for a disease with countless nuances within phenotypes is just a simplistic apporach. Would we want our docs to employ a similar 100% rigid approach with any of our treatments otherwise?

Just to clarify, I completely 100% agree that diet is absolutely and important part of the management of CD. Evidence is mounting about gluten and lactose having immunogenic properties, but caking agents in garlic powder? I'd like to see evidence. The luminal contents, texture, flora, pH, and motility are so different say in the TI vs the sigmoid. To say that one diet, or one treatment will be successful for different disease locations, severity, gender, age is in MHO shortsighted.

I am thankful for SCD because even though many of its illegals have been lifesavers for me, it has brought diet into the equation and discussion. I just hope those who follow it, whether successfully or not, are open to opinions which may differ from their own.

Management of CD should not be ideology based, but rather evidence based.
12-23-2014, 01:23 AM   #299
hugh
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Apologies for bringing up an older post that I've just now caught up with, but if you view these diets as quite imprecise and needing to be adjusted for each individual, doesn't this contradict the emphasis on sticking to them 100%? I've read many posts here where it's stated that people can't expect a diet to work if they cheat at all, and SCD, paleo, etc. seem to be characterised by extreme preciseness.
I view SCD as “imprecise and needing to be adjusted” but SCD is not my diet and they don't care what I think. My view is not the SCD diet and while I generally support the concept that starting with 100% Scd and then seeing if you need to change it, I would not want people to confuse my thoughts about diet with 'The SCD diet”tm
They have a 'system' that works for many and are trying to keep it whole and consistent (as far as they see it).
It would be unworkable to have a 'partial compliance' SCD, it only takes a second of thought to see that they could not offer that as a serious option (“Dear SCD – your diet is not working and I am doing all the bits of it that I want to. Please tell me why this is not enough”)
I believe that 100% adherence to some parts are required but not others but they are my opinions and are only my opinions.
Paleo is only as rigid as you want it to be, plenty of factions, take your pick, paleo templates, perfect health diet, primal, books of 'paleo treats', 80/20 rules, whatever works for you, but a general agreement that cutting back to a pure paleo (meat and veg) and then reintroducing things to see if they are tolerated.
Ancestral is probably a less loaded word

Sure there are bad apples in pharma. Sure they have kicked the ball onto the green before. Yes, that sort of thing is horrible. But at least (here in the US) we have the FDA, and other outlets which regulate, oversee and try to hold companies accountable.
“kicked the ball onto the green”, “bad apples”
ohh how jolly, what mischievous scallywags.......

$2.2 billion in criminal and civil fines for improperly promoted the antipsychotic drug Risperdal and the guy who was vice president for sales and marketing at the time gets promoted to chief executive of Johnson & Johnson [1]. Why? - because the fines are a small percentage of the profit and it is worth it to do the crime, pay the fine and get promoted for making buckets of cash..

“Children as young as 18 months are now receiving [atypical antipsychotic medications], despite the fact that the diseases they're designed to treat rarely develop before adolescence.”
“Aggressive, and oftentimes illegal, marketing by drug companies is believed to be a major contributing factor to skyrocketing misuse of antipsychotic drugs in children.”
[2]

This isn't a few bad apples, this is profit and greed above all else.
Don't try to trivialise criminal and immoral behaviour

I have done a lot of reading online on SCD and I can't go 5 minutes without being told to buy a book.
Goodness me? A book? About the diet? On a website promoting the diet?
How unethical, You should take the matter up with an office of fair trading.
But seriously, after years of talking to people about SCD and low carb diets I have found the most common failing is not the diet but the inability of the dieters to either understand or follow the diet.
Reading the book would probably increase their success rate.

I'm sure it has helped many, but it is fair, responsible and downright our obligation to question it.
I salute your sense of civic duty, but this “mountain out of molehill technique” is hardly appropriate.
The alcohol issue we have settled, yes? (I don't think drinking is a good idea but alcohol is not a carbohydrate)
Also, bacteria can feed on monosacharides very easily. So how is honey or anything with glucose in it OK? How can one be sure those are broken down in the upper tract and none of those sugars get to the TI or colon? And also, many dissacharides are also broken down early in the tract, so why are those out? Would it also depend on where one's disease is located.
Eliminating sugar and complex carbs will reduce the total sugar enormously. Honey (being 95% monosaccarides) and glucose do not need “breaking down”.
One of the recommendations for those who do not find SCD working is to reduse or eliminate honey

I have asked questions on this board, elsewhere and have never gotten anything close to a reasonable answer.
Are those answers reasonable?

I actually get more skeptical when folks bristle in defensiveness, like god forbid we should actually question something that seems inconsistent about the diet.
I am not bristling, certainly not with defensiveness. I have an overly active sarcasm gland and low tolerance for inanity, Medication is proving ineffective.......
I don't eat SCD, I think it is flawed, I eat a medium carb paleo(ish) diet.
I did start off with SCD but found other exclusions were required, and not all SCD exclusions were necessary.
I would not have worked this out had I not followed the diet accurately

Now, back to the important issue at hand. I see your points about the different carbs, but many dissachs. are broken down in the duodenum. If seems logical that if I have no upper tract disease and am careful with portion size not to overburden the carb load (I admit that can be difficult to ascertain,) I should have no problem tolerating these foods in the right portions.
One wonders how well a book that recommended “careful with portion size not to overburden the carb load” would be followed

My issue with it at the end of the day is that blanket statements, 100% rigidity, and terms like "illegal" (implying almost criminal if done) for a disease with countless nuances within phenotypes is just a simplistic approach.
A simplistic approach? Probably should have published 1000 different variations of the book and devise a testing procedure to determine who gets which copy?
But seriously,
They have a formula, it works for many, Good on them.
If the book said “maybe don't eat those, you decide” what use would it be?

Strict adherence may not be necessary for everyone but one has no way of knowing if ones own situation will respond adequately to some of the diet measures, and which of the measures one can afford to ignore.
This is pretty obvious?

Would we want our docs to employ a similar 100% rigid approach with any of our treatments otherwise?
Funny you should mention that,
I just had my cholesterol tested, Doc sat me down and gave me the serious 'We have to do something about these numbers” talk. Gave me three months or else she would have to address my statin deficiency.[3]
Talk about 100% rigidity, look at the top two numbers and don't have any comprehension of what they mean .......

Just to clarify, I completely 100% agree that diet is absolutely and important part of the management of CD..........To say that one diet, or one treatment will be successful for different disease locations, severity, gender, age is in MHO shortsighted.
I am thankful for SCD because even though many of its illegals have been lifesavers for me, it has brought diet into the equation and discussion. I just hope those who follow it, whether successfully or not, are open to opinions which may differ from their own.
Management of CD should not be ideology based, but rather evidence based.
Glad you found it some help

.......revert back to my original statement. There is no question diet not only interacts with gut bacteria but also the immune system. But what that interaction is can vary depending on age, location of disease, duration of disease, severity of disease, maybe even gender. There is no one size fits all answer to any other this. Get a journal, keep a close tally of symptoms, and to be even more scientific get labs, and even better, some imaging or a scope after diet manipulation. See what works and what doesn't.
There is much to support severely restrictive diets that reintroduce foods after an exclusion period.
Since it is impossible to know what foods are contributing to or causing problems and which are only problematic due to the effects of other factors Therefore a strict elimination that allows the intestine time to heal is a effective way to begin and will greatly help to determine what should be eaten.
Random trial and error would be only useful in ascertaining immediate or short term reactions
SCD is a guideline, sorry you don't approve of their vocabulary......

[1] “recklessly put at risk the health of some of the most vulnerable members of our society — including young children, the elderly and the disabled.” “
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/05/bu...case.html?_r=0
[2] http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar..._rid=770644932
[3] My numbers put me in the lowest risk category imaginable High HDL, Low triglicerides, LDL calculated with inappropriate formula[4], TotalC/HDL 3.1 (less than half the average risk)' Trig:HDL ratio = 0.26 (2 or less is considered ideal) and both low trig and Low TotalC/HDL are indicative of large boyant LDL, so on every interpretation my panel was excellent but she told me I HAD to stop eating eggs and fat..... Guess what I did- more eggs and fat......
[4] http://homepages.slingshot.co.nz/~geoff36/LDL_mmol.htm
12-23-2014, 02:14 AM   #300
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I appreciate your post, hugh, because I am currently on a very strict - if you have seen my earlier post, only cooked meats and veggies, some cooked fruit, but no oils and butter - diet with the instruction of an acupuncturist/naturopath. I lost some weight due to it, so the naturopath has allowed a bit of potato in my meals, just not too much at a time. Reading your post has helped me see that this is only helping me (and I do feel a lot better since I have started), and that I can get through this.

Sorry for the sappy post, I just needed to read it from someone who has also experienced this.
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