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Crohn's Disease Forum » General IBD Discussion » Can being on low dose antibiotics for 5 years cause Inflammatory issues in the intestines??


03-19-2013, 11:17 AM   #1
Ihurt
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Can being on low dose antibiotics for 5 years cause Inflammatory issues in the intestines??

As all of you know by now, I have been having intestinal issues for about two years now. I also have other health issues as well. I have went through some tests so far( MRE, CT scan, blood work, stool cultures). Nothing was ever found. My symptoms are mainly consistent intestinal pain. I Have NOT had any diarreha at all. Just sometimes soft stools sometimes mixed with hard pellet like poops. Or they are formed and normal at times. But The pain I get is bad! I have constant cramping feelings and just awful pain and soreness all throughout my intestines.

Last month I saw a tiny amount of blood in my stool. It was bright red and just sitting on top of one area of my BM. Called GI's office, talked to the nurse and she was not conerned at all. Well this morning again I saw a very tiny amount of bright red blood on my stool again. It was a Very small amount, but of course I am concerned. I have an appt. with my GI doc
April 3rd. I Called the nurse to see if I Can get in sooner. Waiting to hear back from her.

Anyhow, here is my question: I have been on low dose antibiotics for 5 years now to prevent the bad UTI's I get( I also have IC bladder which makes matters worse). Anyhow, first I was on keflex low dose for like 4 and half years which REALLY helped my bladder and IC overall. It was the only thing that helped my bladder actually. Well last year in November I was switched to low dose augmetin. What happened was I had an MRE of my small bowel and the stuff I had to drink gave me nasty diarreha and I got a nasty UTI from it all. The kelfex did not work to kill the infection. My regular doctor said my flora got messed up from the contrast and the diarreha likley caused resistance to the keflex. That is why I was put on augmentin. This is one reason my Gastro doc does was leary to do a colonoscopy on me, he says it will make matters worse for me.

Anyhow, I am at wits end here. Ok, I am in pain ALL the time. I feel like I have irritation in my anal area up inside as well. I was wondering if antibiotics taken low dose for years ( even though I have been on High doses of probiotics as well) could cause inflammation of the intestines?? I asked my doctor and she said that yes, usually it can cause C-diff. But she said I dont have that since I would have lots of watery diarrhea if I had C-diff. My gastro doc said the same thing. I mean my gastro is under the impression that I have IBS, especially since my MRE of small intestines and plain CT with just the iodine injection and blood work all have been normal. I am not Convinced though. I mean sorry, any amount of blood in the stool is NOT normal, at least not for me. I am not sure what I have going on, but I dont think it is just IBS.... I do however thing that being on low dose antibiotics has played a HUGE role in whatever is wrong with me. I just wonder if it is possible for antibiotics to irritate the intestines??? I serisouly am going to have a talk with my GI when I see him. This had gone on long enough, I need some Fricking help and answers already! I may have to do the colonoscopy. I just am afraid of the repercusions of it. My regular do and my gastro doc both tell me it just may make my bladder and my GI issues Way worse due to the prep! My regular doctor told me she has patients who have undergone colonoscopies just due to age and they have had nothing but GI problems since!!!! That scares me to death. I mean it is almost imperative that I dont get chronic diarreha because of my whole IC and being prone to hard to treat UTI's... I hate my life, nothing is easy....
03-19-2013, 01:13 PM   #2
araceli
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Hope you can see your gastro soon and find out what is going on. And yes I think antibiotics like any medicine will fix something and mess up other things, they will kill the flora in your intestines, blood is not normal. Can they use the pill cam instead of colonoscopy?
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03-19-2013, 02:06 PM   #3
Ihurt
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Hi Araceli,

Well the thing is even with the pill cam, you have to do the whole bowel clean out. This is where my issue is. Anytime I get diarreha, I end up with nasty UTI's. It is not so much the colonoscopy itself that is the problem, it is the prep. Also the prep has chemicals in it that will inflame my already messed up bladder which will make it even more so I will get a UTI. That is what happend with the stuff I drank for the MRE. Also I think the pill cam is only good for seeing the small bowel really. I already had the MRE of the small bowel and that did not show anything in the small bowel( that was in 5 months ago).

I talked to the GI nurse and got an appt for next Wednesday the 27th. That is a week earlier than my original appt.so I guess that is good. I told the nurse about the small amount of blood and she just seemed non-chalant about it. She said it was likely from an internal hemmhroid.

I honestly think having to be on low dose antibiotics has caused all this intestinal issues I am having. Unfortunately, I have no choice because of the bladder issue. I feel like I cannot win! I even told the nurse that I was sure my gut issues were from the long term low dose anti-b's. She said, No, I dont think so. Then she told me that lots of people have to be on long term antibiotics and they dont have issues. Whatever, I know better than that!
I do take high doses of probitoics too but I guess it is not enough. I am just so fed up! I feel like no matter what way I go, I am screwed.
03-19-2013, 08:23 PM   #4
wildbill_52280
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augmentin is amoxicillin-clavulanic acid.

this is what i took for a respiratory infection one year before showing symptoms of crohns, but even three weeks after taking the antibiotics i felt like a different person and knew something wasnt right, my hair started to fall out, i had severe anxiety.

i have been relentlessly trying to explain how i developed crohns and prove it with scientific evidence, here is some of the things i have found.

It is well documented in science and medicine that antibiotics can cause diarrhea is some patients, whether or not that diarrhea is able to persist as a "permanant" form, is also well documented but as c. difficile infection, for which they also describe the cause as being to "c. difficile" and NOT the antibiotics, lots of professional people buy that explanation that too, but i dont, but they dont understand the concept of causation too well, thats more in the realm of philosophy. I believe the chance that other "permanent" form's of diarrhea, such as IBD, could be caused by antibiotics, and there is a lot of scientific data to support that theory.

here is the first and only good study using newer technology to examine the changes that happen during antibiotic associated diarrhea in one patient, to our benefit, amoxicillin clavulanic acid(augmentin), was used, so here we have very precise knowledge on which bacterial communities can be suppressed with this antibiotic. coincidentally, the bacteria that can be affected or possibly even eliminated are the same bacteria that missing in ibd. Particulary the clostridia cluster xiva that are all butyrate producers and inhabit the intestinal lining are affected my amoxicillin and all the new bacterial studies on ibd find severe disturbances in these communities.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC356823/


here is another very interesting report of someone who underwent antibiotic therapy for h. pylori infection who later developed crohn's disease about 6 months later, coincedentally one of the antibiotics were amoxicillin.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11208510

here is a case where they reported an association with hemorrhagic colitis directly after a course of amoxicillin clavulanic acid to treat sinusitis.
http://www.practicalgastro.com/pdf/J...janArticle.pdf

here is another study demonstrating that some patients gut flora undergo permanent changes from antibiotics, this study used amoxicillin.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1287787/

here is another linking clindamycin to permanant changes in gut flora 2 years post antibiotic exposure.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18043614

here's one for ciproflaxin
http://med.stanford.edu/ism/2010/september/relman.html

these antibiotics are causing permanant damage to the gut flora that doesnt seem to recover. since the technology to detect bacteria has only recently advanced(16s rRNA and now metagenomics(genetic methods), as opposed to previous infinitly slower and purely phenotypical methods), it will take some more time to generate the amount of evidence that will show these antibiotics are causing diseases.

Last edited by wildbill_52280; 03-21-2013 at 05:23 PM.
03-20-2013, 08:46 AM   #5
Ihurt
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Wildbill.

Thanks for all the info. I certainly agree that antibiotics can cause HUGE issues with the gut. I HATE that I have been on them for so long. I am actually researching this as well and hae found that the only real proven way to get these good bugs back in the body is to have a fecal transplant. This is the only way I believe.

I wonder why it is that there are some people out there that can take antibiotics like they are going out of style and never have any digestive issues though?? What sets them apart from us? I mean they are having the same amount of bacteria killed in their guts right?? I have actually read about people here on the crohns board that were given Augmentin FULL strength for months due to abscesses and such. Wouldn't this make them worse in the end??

Thanks for the links, I am going to read up on them. I know my gut issues started back when I was on the low does keflex. They seemed to have worsened after I got the bad UTI from that MRE test I had. That is when they put me on the low dose augmentin. I feel I have gotten worse since being on the augmentin. I even told the gastro nurse that I think the antibiotics is what is making me sick. Of course her answer was, NO, we have lots of people who are taking the same thing and they are no sick! Whatever! I expected that answer anyhow. I mean I am literally shocked that doctors do NOT even recommend probiotics when they hand out scripts for antibiotics. I have been on probiotics for years now, even before I was on the low dose antibiotics. I honestly think I would be WAY sicker had I not been taking the probiotics...

I want to stop the antibiotics, I HATE them as I know they are the cause to me being sick. I just do not know what to do for my bladder then. I have tried ALL the natural stuff and it just does not work.. This truely sucks. I also am allergic to most ALL the other antibitoics out there so that is why I was put on the augmentin...







augmentin is amoxicillin-clavulanic acid.

this is what i took for a respiratory infection one year before showing symptoms of crohns, but even three weeks after taking the antibiotics i felt like a different person and knew something wasnt right, my hair started to fall out, i had severe anxiety.

i have been relentlessly trying to explain how i developed crohns and prove it with scientific evidence, here is some of the things i have found.

It is well documented in science and medicine that antibiotics can cause diarrhea is some patients, whether or not that diarrhea is able to persist as a "permanant" form, is also well documented but as c. difficile infection, for which they also describe the cause as being to "c. difficile" and NOT the antibiotics, lots of professional people buy that explanation that too, but i dont, but they dont understand the concept of causation too well, thats more in the realm of philosophy. I believe the chance that other "permanent" form's of diarrhea, such as IBD, could be caused by antibiotics, and there is a lot of scientific data to support that theory.

here is the first and only good study using newer technology to examine the changes that happen during antibiotic associated diarrhea in one patient, to our benefit, amoxicillin clavulanic acid(augmentin), was used, so here we have very precise knowledge on which bacterial communities can be suppressed with this antibiotic. coincidentally, the bacteria that can be affected or possibly even eliminated are the same bacteria that missing in ibd. Particulary the clostridia cluster xiva that are all butyrate producers and inhabit the intestinal lining are affected my amoxicillin and all the new bacterial studies on ibd find severe disturbances in these communities.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC356823/


here is another very interesting report of someone who underwent antibiotic therapy for h. pylori infection who later developed crohn's disease about 6 months later, coincedentally one of the antibiotics were amoxicillin.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11208510

here is another study demonstrating that some patients gut flora undergo permanent changes from antibiotics, this study used amoxicillin.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1287787/

here is another linking clindamycin to permanant changes in gut flora 2 years post antibiotic exposure.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18043614

here's one for ciproflaxin
http://med.stanford.edu/ism/2010/september/relman.html

these antibiotics are causing permanant damage to the gut flora that doesnt seem to recover. since the technology to detect bacteria has only recently advanced(16s rRNA and now metagenomics(genetic methods), as opposed to previous infinitly slower and purely phenotypical methods), it will take some more time to generate the amount of evidence that will show these antibiotics are causing diseases.
03-20-2013, 12:43 PM   #6
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Augmentin / Amoxicillin-clavulanic acid destroyed me. It was so bad I lied to the doctor so he would put it on my allergy list in spite of the fact that my issues were all GI related. However, things were so painful an destructive, I would have taken the allergy over what I felt.
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03-20-2013, 02:39 PM   #7
Ihurt
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Did it effect your upper gut more so or your lower intestines? And would you say this is what caused your crohns??
03-20-2013, 03:55 PM   #8
ProspectorsQuartet
 
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Definitely the upper GI. I remember that I even felt my gut/stomach hurting. Feeling that pain square in the center, I wouldn't forget that.

As for whether it cause my Crohn's, I would have to say no. Clav was prescribed after my diagnosis when I had my wisdom teeth removed.
03-20-2013, 08:02 PM   #9
Ihurt
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Ughh, what a horrible experience. I know augmentin is suppose to be a real hard hitter on the stomach. I dont blame you, I would have put it on my allergy list too. I know I put cipro on my allergy list. That one almost ruptured my tendon in my arm. I remember once I was at a doctors office and the doctor asked me what my allergies were. I have many but when I told her about the cipro she was like, " that is not an allergy" so you could still take it again if needed! I was like "NO way in hell"! From then on I also tell doctors I am allergic to it as well. Like I want to experince a ruptured tendon! The pharmacist said I should Never take cipro or any med in that class ever again. She said believe it or not, the whole tendon issues are not that rare with this line of drugs. Pretty scary.. I even met an urgent care doctor who she also had her Achilles tendon rupture after being on levaquin a sister drug of cipro. That drug is dangerous in my opinon.






Definitely the upper GI. I remember that I even felt my gut/stomach hurting. Feeling that pain square in the center, I wouldn't forget that.

As for whether it cause my Crohn's, I would have to say no. Clav was prescribed after my diagnosis when I had my wisdom teeth removed.
03-20-2013, 09:33 PM   #10
wildbill_52280
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I wonder why it is that there are some people out there that can take antibiotics like they are going out of style and never have any digestive issues though?? What sets them apart from us? I mean they are having the same amount of bacteria killed in their guts right?? I have actually read about people here on the crohns board that were given Augmentin FULL strength for months due to abscesses and such. Wouldn't this make them worse in the end??
to explain why only some people walk away with gut damage from amoxicillin or other antibiotics, i would have to say is just the foods they are eating during the course, the amount and type of fiber you consume will protect these bacteria from being wiped out.

its probably better that you stay on the antibiotics for now but feel free to try weaning off. i have read some people experiances from taking amoxicillin or augmentin on this board and some report positive outcomes for their disease, while some report negative. the thing is, once you already have crohns, you now tend to accumulate bacteria, and now antibiotics will have more of a positive effect rather then a negative effect. The possibility of the antibiotics making someones disease worse also exists. these relationships are pretty complicated.
03-21-2013, 06:08 AM   #11
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I wonder why it is that there are some people out there that can take antibiotics like they are going out of style and never have any digestive issues though?? What sets them apart from us? I mean they are having the same amount of bacteria killed in their guts right?? I have actually read about people here on the crohns board that were given Augmentin FULL strength for months due to abscesses and such. Wouldn't this make them worse in the end??
Before my digestive issues began (when I was a child - I began getting sick in my early teens), I had several courses of antibiotics over the years and did not get diarrhoea as a side effect at all. Since my digestive issues began, I've had three short courses of antibiotics, and for the time that I was on them my diarrhoea would be significantly worse (I was already getting diarrhoea every day, even when off antibiotics). But the effects went away as soon as I was off antibiotics.

The same with other meds - even vitamin pills worsen my digestive symptoms now, when I'm sure I took them sometimes as a child with no problem.

For me I think it works the other way round - rather than antibiotics causing my illness (or triggering it), I think having such a messed up digestive system means that I'm very likely to suffer digestive side effects when I take antibiotics. Whereas when I was a child with a healthy digestive tract, antibiotics posed no problem.

Antibiotics give me side effects - symptoms - but they don't effect my disease itself. They didn't trigger it to start, don't cause flares, and don't worsen inflammation.

Probiotics do me no good at all - they don't help my Crohn's symptoms and didn't stop me getting side effects from antibiotics.

Why some people get side effects from antibiotics and others don't means there are other factors involved. We're just all made differently, even when we share the same disease. Environmental factors may play a role too.
04-25-2013, 07:42 AM   #12
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I have been reading this forum for about six months now while going through massive amounts of testing for everything under the sun.

I am a business teacher at a high school in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvana. I was exposed to very large amounts of toxic black mold for a four-year period. Needless to say, I became very ill will an upper respiratory illness. I was given 11 different courses of antibiotics over a six month period. One of which I took every day for two months straight. While taking other antibiotics?

That was August 2011, I am still not back to work. The school still leaks and has mold problems. I know have allergies, chronic rhinunitis and asthma; in addition to a bunch of neurological problems and migraines.

I am going on May 3rd to be tested for IBD because of severe shingle-like pain in the left flank area of my back along with the running to the bathroom for about two hours straight every morning. I can't leave my house - don't forget the fatigue which I take 400mg of Provigal that does not put a dent in.

What are you thoughts? I hope you are not upset I posted without being diagnosed officially. But I am sure this is my problem. They have ruled out every other autoimmune disease there is - the blood work and carpal tunnel are leading them to believe I have one some where?
04-26-2013, 09:59 AM   #13
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Sorry to hear you're suffering like that.
Even without exposure to mold, 11 courses of antibiotic could give you some serious GI trouble. I'm a big proponent of Saccharomyces Boulardii (like Florastor) - you can read a bit about it on Wikipedia if you're not familiar. It might help with some of the intestinal trouble.
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