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Crohn's Disease Forum » Diet, Fitness, and Supplements » SCD and Paleo Diets » Is a High Fiber Diet a Health Hazard?


04-06-2013, 11:15 AM   #1
Charleigh
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Is a High Fiber Diet a Health Hazard?

Interesting article from someone with IBD

http://empoweredsustenance.com/are-you-fiber-obsessed/


Any thoughts?
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04-06-2013, 11:35 AM   #2
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this isnt a very good testimony, for instance she says she started following a grain free diet and she also stated she follows Specific Carbohydrate diet, its like, maybe its the fact she removed grains or maybe its something else.
So her own description/opinions of causation for the improvements of symptoms does not have much merit, could be anything, maybe just the yogurt from the SCD, if she is following it correctly.

i will say this from my own experiance, i react very badly to yeast that is used to leaven bread, i know this from making my own bread with and without yeast. and on top of that, i have switched different brands of wheat and found i can only tolerate gold medal whole wheat flour, otherwise i get more loose stools with other brands, and all these observations were done very meticulously making sure the only thing i changed was the variables in questions and nothing else. so it does at least seem that other people with ibd may have similar sensitivitys to certain grains.


also, depending on the severity of your disease it is my opinion that fiber will either seriously help you or seriously harm you, and this may be due to the tendancie for pathogenic bacteria to feed off of soluble fibers,if they dominate too much in the gut, therefore having a mostly negative effects, whereas someone with mostly goo dbacteria in their intestines will react positively. this could also be anotehr way her grain free diet has helped her.

many possibilitys, few certaintys(science).
04-06-2013, 11:41 AM   #3
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Very interesting!!! Before I was diagnosed with Crohn's last fall, I had been on Weight Watchers for the past three years or so, even after losing the weight, I followed their basic diet - high fiber! I ate high fiber cereal at least 5 days a week, along with high fiber breads, etc. On Weight Watchers, the higher the fiber content, the lower the "point value" for food - so you were encouraged to eat a lot of high fiber food. I was working out a lot too and then started getting sick last September. I think what kicked it off was I had 3 different rounds of high antibiotics last year, so along with the high fiber diet.......... I won't even touch high fiber bread or cereal anymore!!

Thanks for sharing the article... it totally makes sense!
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04-06-2013, 01:36 PM   #4
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Very interesting!!! Before I was diagnosed with Crohn's last fall, I had been on Weight Watchers for the past three years or so, even after losing the weight, I followed their basic diet - high fiber! I ate high fiber cereal at least 5 days a week, along with high fiber breads, etc. On Weight Watchers, the higher the fiber content, the lower the "point value" for food - so you were encouraged to eat a lot of high fiber food. I was working out a lot too and then started getting sick last September. I think what kicked it off was I had 3 different rounds of high antibiotics last year, so along with the high fiber diet.......... I won't even touch high fiber bread or cereal anymore!!

Thanks for sharing the article... it totally makes sense!

I was a whole grains person all.the.way until I began following the paleo diet. I made all of my own baked goods with fresh ground whole wheat flour. I have felt far better on a meat and veggie based diet with no grains. SCD has worked great for E and the only fiber he gets is from fruits and veggies.
04-06-2013, 01:39 PM   #5
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she says she started following a grain free diet and she also stated she follows Specific Carbohydrate diet, its like, maybe its the fact she removed grains or maybe its something else.
So her own description/opinions of causation for the improvements of symptoms does not have much merit, could be anything, maybe just the yogurt from the SCD, if she is following it correctly.
Good points.
E has seen great improvement on SCD (which is completely grain free) even though he cannot have the yogurt. He can't tolerate milk protein so we had to skip it. We did add in acidophilus but not until later.
04-06-2013, 03:33 PM   #6
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High fiber certainly was a health hazard at my place last night and this morning. I've been feeling fairly well of late. I'm still not well all the time, nor as energetic as I wish, but the gut has been improving nicely. I'm pleased.

Your post is ironic, because last night I decided to eat some nuts which are high in fiber. It was probably the most fiber I've eaten for a day in a year or more. What a mistake. I didn't sleep one bit, the gut was grumpy all night long.

So hopfully I'll sleep well tonight. Imagine I will, as tired as I feel now, which is good as tomorrow looks to be busy.

Nice article. Enjoyed the quote from Dr. Campbell. I've seen others mention further - and somewhat what was written about in the article - that with our "normal bowel movement obsessed country" that the high fiber intake some consume might contribute to cancer growth. It's a controversial mention. The idea being that fiber irritates the intestines lining, causing it to release mucus to protect itself. The idea was compared to what happens with smoking, as tobacco smoke irritates the lungs lining, causing the body to release mucus. It isn't a direct association obviously, but when i read it made me wonder, particularly if humans are supposed to be largely meat eaters or largely consume vegetable matter. Heated debate that one.

I don't recall if it was the forum Dirty Carnivore or not,

http://dirtycarnivore.com/

but years ago I saw some people that largely only ate meat products mentioning among themselves their bathroom habits. Several said something that made me chuckle in some ways - their stools were so fell formed that they don't need to use toilet paper. The dream! Now there is something to aim for I thought! Sheryl Crow would be pleased.

"Sheryl Crow's view on toilet paper: one sheet a visit"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...usicnews.music
04-07-2013, 03:27 AM   #7
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Fibre makes my symptoms worse, but I'm not convinced by the theories offered in this article for why that is. I've assumed that fibre helps some people and hurts others.

The quote from Dr. Natasha Campbell McBride:
A diet high in fiber from grains (brans and breakfast cereals in particular) has a profound negative effect on the gut flora, gut health and general body metabolism, predisposing the person to IBS, bowel cancer, nutritional deficiencies, and many other problems...
I thought it was established that fibre can help prevent bowel cancer? And there doesn't seem to be an accepted understanding of what Irritable Bowel Syndrome actually is, so I'm sceptical of any claims about what causes it.

I'm not quite clear on whether this article advises readers to give up fibre almost completely or whether to only eat specific types. In my case, I haven't found fibre to be all bad, I just need to keep my fibre intake low. So I have white bread rather than brown, cornflakes rather than museli. But if I really want a piece of fruit, I can have it without any noticable ill effects.

It's only been when I've tried high fibre diets, early on in my experiments with diet, where I was eating a couple of portions of vegatables and nuts and seeds, that its effects were really noticable. After a couple of days my diarrhoea would be much more frequent and urgent, and my stomach would be much more uncomfortable than usual. A couple of days off a high fibre diet and I'd be back to normal. No idea about what its long term effects would be.
04-07-2013, 08:47 AM   #8
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Oh, it would be nice if the reporting of science was more certain, whether in man made global warming or with nutritional ideas. It seems it has been the fashion for the last decade to say with certainty that some scientific ideas are settled. I'd have to guess the science with nutrition is less settled than many suspect. For example, with fiber just this month a new study came out saying that fiber, instead of relieving constipation as many believe, is more likely to cause it.

"Study finds dietary fibre is more likely to be cause of, rather than a cure for, constipation and other bowel symptoms"

http://www.drbriffa.com/2013/03/05/s...owel-symptoms/

And of course everyone knows with certainty that constipation leads to bowel cancer - then we see this study the following week.

"Constipation can cause colon cancer? Probably not"

http://www.drbriffa.com/2013/03/28/c...-probably-not/

I think the other biggie with colon cancer is if not eating fiber and vegetables, then one is likely to be eating meat and that is established science that eating meats lead to cancer and heart disease. Yet many writers that look into these studies that are widely reported find them to be poorly done observational studies that find little correlation to eating meats and developing diseases.

One article on that from Dr. Feinman, about the scaring of Americans away from eating meats.

"Crimson Slime – Making Americans Afraid of Meat."

https://rdfeinman.wordpress.com/tag/red-meat/

Anyway, personally I believe anymore it comes down to what one and who one believes. If fiber is helping your condition then best to keep taking in my opinion.
04-07-2013, 08:42 PM   #9
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“Epidemiology is so beautiful and provides such an important perspective on human life and death, but an incredible amount of rubbish is published,”
Richard Peto, professor of medical statistics and epidemiology at Oxford University
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04-07-2013, 09:26 PM   #10
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Interesting article and it makes sense to me. I am a college student majoring in biology and anthropology and in one of my anthropology classes we have been talking about the development of agriculture. Agriculture is an extremely recent development and the dietary changes that went along with it happened faster than our bodies could evolve to keep up with it. Because of that, our bodies are designed to handle the diet of a hunter-gatherer (fruits/vegetables/some meat- and not much grains). This is in contrast to our current diet which includes more grains. There has been a lot of research (with data from ancient skeletons) on this topic, many of it showing the increase in disease, infant mortality, and dental cavities associated with farming. There is a part of me that is almost certain that one of the environmental causes of IBD has to do with this change in diet.
04-08-2013, 08:52 AM   #11
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“Epidemiology is so beautiful and provides such an important perspective on human life and death, but an incredible amount of rubbish is published,”
Richard Peto, professor of medical statistics and epidemiology at Oxford University


I wouldn't mind being an epidemiologist for a day, making up silly whacks, and having them believed as gospel. It could be fun!
04-09-2013, 09:47 AM   #12
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I posted this in the news section of the sight last night, but thought to bring it here. The article takes a further in depth look at the latest meat kills study.

"Here We Go Again: Another Meat Kills! Study"

http://www.fathead-movie.com/index.p...t-kills-study/
04-11-2013, 02:21 PM   #13
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Rather than Fiber vs non fiber I think this blog illustrates more of a grain vs grain free diet. Grains tend to be inflammatory.

Human history shows us that our diets were much rough before modern soft diets and we included much more fiber, but then again grains were a major staple for us from 10,000 B.C. onwards.

Anthropologists like loren cordain believe that 12,000 years of grain inclusion isn't enough for us to work out all the kinks to digest properly. I tend to trust that line of thinking. (http://www.direct-ms.org/pdf/Evoluti...al%20Sword.pdf) (page 47)

I think fiber through fruits and vegetables is essential to human health and played an integral role in our evolution, fiber through grains is a whole different story and I would wish they do not get lumped together.

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04-11-2013, 05:55 PM   #14
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I think fiber through fruits and vegetables is essential to human health and played an integral role in our evolution, fiber through grains is a whole different story and I would wish they do not get lumped together.
Well put,
some fibre is good,
too much of the wrong fibre is bad.
04-11-2013, 08:15 PM   #15
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Metamucil and other fiber supplements have never worked for me. They only bloat and make constipation worse. Coffee usually does the trick for me.

Again, everyone's different.
04-12-2013, 06:23 AM   #16
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Rather than Fiber vs non fiber I think this blog illustrates more of a grain vs grain free diet. Grains tend to be inflammatory.

Human history shows us that our diets were much rough before modern soft diets and we included much more fiber, but then again grains were a major staple for us from 10,000 B.C. onwards.

Anthropologists like loren cordain believe that 12,000 years of grain inclusion isn't enough for us to work out all the kinks to digest properly. I tend to trust that line of thinking. (http://www.direct-ms.org/pdf/Evoluti...al%20Sword.pdf) (page 47)

I think fiber through fruits and vegetables is essential to human health and played an integral role in our evolution, fiber through grains is a whole different story and I would wish they do not get lumped together.

Gianni
I can digest refined grains (e.g white rice) far easier than many high fibre fruits and vegetables though, and I don't think I'm the only one who finds this. I know fibre from veg is generally healthy, but I don't think it suits many people with digestion problems any better than high-fibre grains. Similarly, I'm fine with some fruits/veg (e.g. avocado, banana) even in quite large quantities, just as I'm fine with white rice, white bread and low fibre breakfast cereals.

I'm not sure distinguishing fruit & veg as good and grains as bad in this context is any more useful than distinguishing fibre from non (or low) fibre. There are different types of fibre and different sources of fibre. Whether they're beneficial for digestive health (or health in general), and in what quantities, seems dependent on the individual.
04-13-2013, 07:14 AM   #17
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I can digest refined grains (e.g white rice) far easier than many high fibre fruits and vegetables though, and I don't think I'm the only one who finds this. I know fibre from veg is generally healthy, but I don't think it suits many people with digestion problems any better than high-fibre grains. Similarly, I'm fine with some fruits/veg (e.g. avocado, banana) even in quite large quantities, just as I'm fine with white rice, white bread and low fibre breakfast cereals.

I'm not sure distinguishing fruit & veg as good and grains as bad in this context is any more useful than distinguishing fibre from non (or low) fibre. There are different types of fibre and different sources of fibre. Whether they're beneficial for digestive health (or health in general), and in what quantities, seems dependent on the individual.
I am becoming more and more convinced that difficulty digesting fruits and veggies are simply a symptom of a problem and that grains are the problem. When E first went on SCD he couldn't eat most fruits and veggies without getting D, but we pushed through and slowly added foods as he healed. Now he can even eat raw strawberries and grapes, etc because of the healing that has taken place on the inside.
04-13-2013, 10:22 AM   #18
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I am becoming more and more convinced that difficulty digesting fruits and veggies are simply a symptom of a problem and that grains are the problem. When E first went on SCD he couldn't eat most fruits and veggies without getting D, but we pushed through and slowly added foods as he healed. Now he can even eat raw strawberries and grapes, etc because of the healing that has taken place on the inside.
Since there are millions of people that eat grains and do not have problems from eating them, it's safe to assume that different foods affect different people, including us with Crohn's or UC. I can eat salads again with 'soft veggies' and no seeds, skin. I want to start juicing as this makes the most sense of high nutrients and easy to digest.

I found the following and thought it was very interesting - read the article, there's lots of good info (link at the bottom):


"The ancients were well aware that raw vegetables were difficult to digest; in Chinese Medicine, for example, it is well known that raw foods are best eaten by someone with strong “digestive fire.” A major cause of poor “digestive fire” is that our adrenals and thyroid are both poorly nourished and taxed by toxins and daily stress. It takes energy to digest foods but they are not doing the job.

The Body Ecology system of health and healing focuses on creating this “digestive fire” by creating a healthy inner ecosystem; the foods recommended on the diet are teeming with friendly microflora (good bacteria) that reside in our intestines and keep us healthy and strong.

Until your inner ecosystem is healthy, you may have trouble digesting raw vegetables. For this reason, we suggest cooking your vegetables by baking, simmering, sautéing or lightly steaming them to make them more digestible. Simultaneously focus on strengthening your digestive fire by eating cultured foods. Cultured vegetables have an abundance of enzymes and contain beneficial bacteria that are very helpful at digesting all the foods eaten in your meals.

Fermented foods like raw cultured vegetables will provide you with important plant enzymes and healthy microflora to populate your inner ecosystem to build your digestive fire."

Here’s a recap of some key ways to make digesting raw vegetables easier:

Include fermented foods and drinks in your diet so you can build a healthy inner ecosystem to help you digest your food and assimilate the nutrients.

Cultured vegetables allow you to get all the benefits of fermented foods and raw vegetables.

Chew your vegetables completely — at least 20 times per bite.

Bake, simmer, sauté or lightly steam your vegetables to make them more digestible.

Blend your vegetables in a raw vegetable smoothie (link to this week’s green smoothie recipe that is included in the newsletter.

Take Assist Enzymes to boost your digestion (link to this week’s article ‘The Smartest Ways to Assist Your Digestion in Assisting Your Health’


http://bodyecology.com/articles/raw_...p#.UWl3oaLU_Sh
04-14-2013, 05:33 AM   #19
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I'm not convinced by the idea that grains are bad for us because we didn't evolve eating them. We didn't evolve using modern medicine, but medicine saves many lives every day. Other developments which are very recent (in evolutionary terms) also benefit the vast majority of people. Developments in hygiene, for example, mean the environment in contemporary societies is very different from that in which our distant ancestors lived, but the changes mean most people live far longer and healthier lives than they would do in the environments in which people lived for the majority of human history.
04-14-2013, 10:29 PM   #20
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I can digest refined grains (e.g white rice) far easier than many high fibre fruits and vegetables though, and I don't think I'm the only one who finds this. I know fibre from veg is generally healthy, but I don't think it suits many people with digestion problems any better than high-fibre grains. Similarly, I'm fine with some fruits/veg (e.g. avocado, banana) even in quite large quantities, just as I'm fine with white rice, white bread and low fibre breakfast cereals.

I'm not sure distinguishing fruit & veg as good and grains as bad in this context is any more useful than distinguishing fibre from non (or low) fibre. There are different types of fibre and different sources of fibre. Whether they're beneficial for digestive health (or health in general), and in what quantities, seems dependent on the individual.
I Totally Agree,
A healthy digestive tract is going to handle fibre better than an ulcerated and infected one.
The point is that after stopping grains (and a degree of healing), many other foods that were not tolerated may now be tolerated


I am becoming more and more convinced that difficulty digesting fruits and veggies are simply a symptom of a problem and that grains are the problem. When E first went on SCD he couldn't eat most fruits and veggies without getting D, but we pushed through and slowly added foods as he healed. Now he can even eat raw strawberries and grapes, etc because of the healing that has taken place on the inside.
I Totally Agree,
it's a shame that so few understand the magnitude of this observation.
Many food intolerances and medical conditions will improve or even disappear once grain is removed from the diet, this is not in debate (not to anyone who has researched the subject)
for example, once wheat is eliminated, lactose intolerance often disappears

It is terrible that one of the most commonly cited 'safe' foods is one of the major underlying factors in the development of Crohns (and all autoimmune diseases)
There is ample observational evidence that conditions such as diabetes (ll), lupus, UC, crohns, hashimoto's, MS, and others improve on a grain free diet,
In most cases it is part of a larger diet (Paleo/SCD,etc)

Wheat has been demonstrated to trash the brush border cells (microvilli),
to paraphrase,-
WGA (wheat germ agglutinin) is a lectin that will cause microvilli to divide at an abnormal rate, and they cannot function properly.
http://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.c...d-lactose.html

There are 50 to 70 diseases (depending on what and when I read) that are thought to have an autoimmune basis,
While genetics play a huge part in determining which disease one can develop, diet plays a major factor in whether or not the disease will develop at all, and what can be done about it once it has developed.

If anyone wants to follow up on that here are a few links...

Why Wheat Is A Concealed Cause of Many Diseases, I to III
http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2010/10...s-i-leaky-gut/
Bowel Disease, Part II: Healing the Gut By Eliminating Food Toxins
http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2010/07...g-food-toxins/

get this, nanomolar concentrations (teeny tiny amounts) “stimulates the synthesis of pro-inflammatory cytokines and thus the biological activity of WGA should be reconsidered by taking into account the effects of WGA on the immune system at the gastrointestinal interface. These results shed new light onto the molecular mechanisms underlying the onset of gastrointestinal disorders observed in vivo upon dietary intake of wheat-based foods."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19332085

There is research afoot to use WGA as a vehicle to transport drugs through the intestinal barrier because it is so good at transporting molecules through the barrier (did anyone say leaky gut?)

I'm not convinced by the idea that grains are bad for us because we didn't evolve eating them. We didn't evolve using modern medicine, but medicine saves many lives every day. Other developments which are very recent (in evolutionary terms) also benefit the vast majority of people. Developments in hygiene, for example, mean the environment in contemporary societies is very different from that in which our distant ancestors lived, but the changes mean most people live far longer and healthier lives than they would do in the environments in which people lived for the majority of human history.
I'm not sure I agree, but I can't totally disagree,
grains save thousands of lives and feed huge numbers, but they are bad for many and this is not really debatable.
The questions are what grains are safe and for whom?
If one has crohns then one would be wise to try a paleo or SCD diet (grain free) and then make up ones own mind.

By the way,
-the leading cause of death in America IS healthcare,
-hygiene only became an issue after the development of agriculture which allowed large numbers of people to live in their own shit.
and
"once a caveman survived childhood, he had a pretty good chance of reaching ages comparable to ours, without the tens of thousands of dollars in medical care we use to compensate for our crappy diets."
http://www.anth.ucsb.edu/faculty/gur...lan2007pdr.pdf
"Gurven and Kaplan make an extremely salient point: since the bulk of human evolutionary history took place over the course of 2 million years prior to the advent of agriculture, and that pre-agricultural period conferred most of the “major distinctive features of our species, such as large brains, long lives, marriage and male investment in offspring,” it’s likely that the “age-specific mortality pattern” of human beings also evolved “during our hunter-gatherer past.” That is, they propose that the human potential for longevity is not a product of modern living; instead, it appears to be a genetic characteristic shared by all Homo sapiens. Advances in medical technology bolster and support that inherent longevity (as shown by moderate lifespan increases in acculturated hunter-gatherers and modern industrial populations), but they aren’t responsible for it."
Mark's Daily Apple

Last edited by hugh; 04-15-2013 at 04:47 AM.
04-15-2013, 08:31 AM   #21
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hugh - thanks for this information.

I did give up wheat and all gluten for many months but had no benefit at all.

I was told by a nutritionist that I had "leaky gut" and he put me on a diet which was supposed to heal it. The diet made me very ill, so I know some of my lack of confidence in the idea of leaky gut and various food types being bad for health is due to my own experience and not on science.

The diet the nutritionist had me on excluded all lactose and gluten, as well as various other foods I was told I was intolerent to, and also banned any refined or processed foods. It was basically fish, white meat, fruit, veg, nuts and seeds. At the time I couldn't understand why I got so ill when this supposed expert was telling me I would be cured by it, but I know now it was probably due to all the fibre. I lost far too much weight (I was underweight to start with). I had similar experiences with two other nutritionists, also tried going vegetarian, rotating foods, etc. etc.

I do have quite severe motility issues with my digestive system which are not part of Crohns, the cause of which is unknown. So I suppose it's possible that my symptoms don't respond to diets in the same way as people who only have Crohn's or autoimmune diseases.

But having tried for so long to manage my illness through diet, I'm quite sure that no alternative diet (is that the correct term?) is going to heal me. All foods seem to be labelled as bad by someone, and the evidence I've seen does not suggest grains to be involved in disease (except for a few conditions such as coeliac). Nothing I read about leaky gut when I was told I had it had much scientific basis. However, this was several years ago and I'm going to have a look at the articles you linked to shortly. What I am certain of is that although eating my "normal" low fibre diet doesn't cure me, my symptoms are far far better eating this way.
04-16-2013, 08:28 PM   #22
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high fiber for me has always been an issue i've spent a few nights in the hospital from a high fiber diet before i realized i should probably not eat that much fiber if at all. it really depends on the person i suppose which is what i seam to be hearing a lot on this sight now. Maybe test it out and see what happens!
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