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Crohn's Disease Forum » Treatment » Advice Needed: Warding Off Naturopathic Crazies


 
01-27-2009, 12:12 PM   #1
lizzy_forrest
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Advice Needed: Warding Off Naturopathic Crazies

No, I'm not saying that everyone who practices naturopathy is a crazy, but if I have one more person tell me that wheatgrass will magically cure my Crohn's, I'm not sure what I'm going to do.

I'm currently dealing with a very persistent classmate, who insists I should come over to her house so she can zap me with her frequency machine. She keeps telling me that it will completely cure me, and I don't know how to politely tell her that I'm not interested. Whenever I look ill, she chastises me for not taking her up on her offer.

Please give me some advice. How to politely tell people I'm not interested in their "expert advice"?
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01-27-2009, 02:13 PM   #2
CD68
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lizzy_forrest said:

I'm currently dealing with a very persistent classmate, who insists I should come over to her house so she can zap me with her frequency machine. She keeps telling me that it will completely cure me, and I don't know how to politely tell her that I'm not interested. Whenever I look ill, she chastises me for not taking her up on her offer.
I've been tempted to start a blog titled "Sphincter Says What?" cataloguing all the crazy advice that people give about IBD.

I looked up "frequency machine" and there is an article on it at quackwatch.com (Wiki also has an article on the guy who invented this)

It also sells for $1800! Good grief. $1800.

So here are some fun ways to handle this:

1. tell your friend you'll contribute a zip lock bag of Crohn's poo in the nearest bathroom and she can tote that back to the house with her, zap it and then check it for harmful bacteria to make sure that the frequency machine delivers. If she takes you up on this then you can tell her that she needs to hold the bag while it's being filled.

2. Since radio waves travel long distances through space (millions of miles) you don't actually need to be physically close to the machine. Maybe if she turns it on it can cure all the Crohn's patients within a ten mile radius.

3. Have her double check to make sure her booklet has a special Crohn's frequency and if it doesn't show up in her autofrequency manual tell her that your doc said the Crohn's frequency is not a whole number like the others, it's based on square root of two and therefore requires a special frequency machine and not her ordinary frequency machine. If it does say Crohn's then tell her, it's "terminal illeitis" more precisely, not just any sort of Crohn's and have her see if that is listed.

4. Make her a tin foil hat and have her zap herself at the Crohn's frequency. Here's how to pull this off. Tell her it's based on the transitive property of vital and spectral frequencies. Tell her that metal retains frequencies which is how haunted houses work. The frequency of voices are absorbed into the house and later they are played back which is why people think they hear ghosts. So she can charge up the tinfoil hat for you at her house. Now here is the important part, tell her if she takes the "transition device" off that it will disrupt the frequency storage due to the static electricity in her hair which keeps it charged, so that it is very important that she wears the transition device all the way up to the point where she gives it to you. She'll need to wear it in her car while driving to wherever you are. When you get the hat you'll absorb that frequency. If she acts like she's never heard of this roll your eyes and tell if she had an up to date frequency machine she'd know all about this.

5. Many people who use devices which show up on quackwatch are familiar with the accusations that they are fraudulent and explain this away through some sort of conspiracy theory about the medical community or the FDA. Tell her that the FDA requires secret CIA chip implants in the rectum of all Crohn's patients and that via this chip implant they are able to monitor the use of frequency machines so you can't use a frequency machine without getting caught, but if she can completely wallpaper her room with tin foil then the chip can't transmit.

6. When she fusses at you for not taking her up on her offer just belch really loud.
01-27-2009, 04:34 PM   #3
katiesue1506
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I get this a lot too. I was told to go to the "nature store" and tell the clerk that I have Crohn's and they will give me an array of herbs and supplements that will fix my boat.

She then told me she'd pray for me and that I should pray for myself.

The first time I was polite about everything, but after a while I just let her know that "I'm an atheist that believes in western medicine.... sorry 'boutcha"
01-28-2009, 06:26 AM   #4
danman
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I know we have a few alternative medicine disciples on this forum, but as I have argued in the passed, if it was as easy as taking Cinnamon drops to cure this chronic illness, surely to God, the docs would have told us this.

The argument is always the same... "The drug companies want our money"
Bulls**t...

Doctors would not let us suffer if they thought there was a simple cure. period.

There is another thing here in Ireland... Religious healers. My God, the amount of times I've been told I should go to "Mary Jones" (or whoever) down the road, she's got amazing "Healing hands"!!!!
Bulls**t!!!!
01-28-2009, 07:25 AM   #5
My Butt Hurts
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You COULD always just go to her house, get a little zap, then pretend you are cured just to mess with her. Or better yet - act as though you've been strapped to electric chair and freak out. THAT would be a bit of fun as well. (Or maybe just sit on the other side of the classroom from now on.)
At one time I was seriously thinking about going for accupuncture, cuz I have heard a lot of positive stories about it.
My mom had extensive meetings with a Native American healer of some sort on my behalf. I just pretended I was thankful. Well, I was am thankful that she was trying to help, but I don't think it did anything. I mean - it's *probably* the Remicade and prednisone that has me feeling good right now... but you never know.
01-28-2009, 08:53 AM   #6
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CD68... laughed my socks off!
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01-28-2009, 09:11 AM   #7
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Danman, I think you are a bit off base with some of your assertions. About cinnamon drops as the cure for CrohnísÖaside from whether or not it worked for that person (did someone on this board actually say this?), itís just a ďstrawmanĒ argument anyway, i.e., some lunatic claims cinnamon drops cured his Crohnís, therefore all alternative medicine is bunk.

I donít believe drug companies are evil, but I do believe their primary motivation is to satisfy their shareholders by making as much money as possible. Thatís how business is run in this day and age, unfortunately. At least here in the United States, the way it generally works is pharmaceutical companies pour millions of dollars into developing a new drug, then sponsor studies showing its effectiveness, then send out their army of sales of representatives to doctor offices where they lavish free samples on the doctors, often at the expense of doctors spending time with their patients. Whether or not the drugs are actually helpful is beside the point. There have been quite a number of cases where harmful drugs have flooded the market despite the drug companiesí knowledge of their harmfulness. Laws get broken or at the very least ethics get twisted around. Do you not believe this happens? Itís not a conspiracy, itís not the corporate board of drug companies sitting in a dark, smoky room and plotting how to screw over sick people, itís just business as usual.

Iím all in favor of using alternative methods of treatment, which I have, and which I am sure have helped me, as long as there is some evidence backing up the effectiveness of such methods. Fish oil, probiotics, turmeric, DMSO, wormwood, and restricted carbohydrate diets (there are quite a number of gastroenterologists out there treating their patients with the Specific Carbohydrate Diet) all have, to a certain degree, evidence supporting their effectiveness in managing inflammatory diseases and conditions. Why donít doctors know about this and tell us about it? Because theyíve made a pact with the evil drug companies? No, itís partly because they donít have the time to even research such things (they would if they didnít have to host drug salesman all day) but mainly they are trained in a system designed to treat symptoms with the latest and best pharmaceutically developed compounds. Again, no conspiracy, just business as usual. Itís the paradigm of allopathic medicine combined with a healthy fear of malpractice lawsuits.

For the record, Iím not into faith healing, crystals, prayer and the like. But Iím willing to keep an open mind when it comes to various supplements and herbs and Iím willing to carefully weigh out the pros and cons of using such treatments. Just because your doctor didnít tell you about or just because you didnít pay $3000 for one infusion of it doesnít mean it wonít help. I know there are likeminded others on this board and I hope they chime in because this is an important discussion for us to have.

Danman, Iím not picking on you. Your post was just the catalyst for me to share some thoughts Iíve had in my head for a while. I always say ďto each his own.Ē All the best.
01-28-2009, 09:14 AM   #8
Creepy Lurker
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My Butt Hurts said:
[email protected] CD68
You COULD always just go to her house, get a little zap, then pretend you are cured just to mess with her. Or better yet - act as though you've been strapped to electric chair and freak out. THAT would be a bit of fun as well. (Or maybe just sit on the other side of the classroom from now on.)
At one time I was seriously thinking about going for accupuncture, cuz I have heard a lot of positive stories about it.
My mom had extensive meetings with a Native American healer of some sort on my behalf. I just pretended I was thankful. Well, I was am thankful that she was trying to help, but I don't think it did anything. I mean - it's *probably* the Remicade and prednisone that has me feeling good right now... but you never know.
I think convulsing in the chair would be hilarious. It'd probably shut them up for a while...
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01-28-2009, 09:44 AM   #9
danman
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I was using "cinnamon drops" as an analogy for all special cures.

I don't deny that drug companies exist to make money, but my argument is that our Doctors are trying to help us with our symptoms. I used cinnamon drops as an example. If a herb/supplement/electric charge was all we needed to be cured or simply to alleviate our symptoms, a doctor would prescribe them to us.

As I pointed out in a previous thread, here in Ireland, we have a public health system. Hospitals, and therefore consultants, have to work to a yearly budget. They cannot go over that budget. So if there is a patient that could be prescribed a less expensive Med, they will try their utmost to prescribe this, rather than spend unnecessary money on expensive meds.

There is a place for living a healthy lifestyle, for us probably more than most. But there has been people on this forum who have gone off all conventional meds. They were only using alternative medicine and were advising others to do the same. This is something I cannot believe.

Yes, the drug companies are trying to make as much money as possible, but, and I'm not defending the scandalous prices they charge, they put in the research into our disease, and subsequently, create the drugs to suit. They spend years trialing the drugs for effectiveness and side effects, then the governments have to pass them for human trials.

Remember every country that uses certain drugs have to pass them themselves. Drugs that are available here in Ireland, are not available in Britain and vice vearsa. That's an awful lot of trails and research.

My point is, how much research goes into alternative medicine. how many trails and medical papers have been written on them. Should we just believe a supplier on the net that says "This will cure/relieve your Crohn's" any more than a drug that has had years of research gone into it?

I'm sorry for the rant, but this has been a bugbear of mine for the last 20 years of having Crohn's. I've been told all sort of ridiculous things, Someone even suggested I should give up Guinness... God forbid, I'm Irish!!!
01-28-2009, 03:35 PM   #10
CD68
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The problem isn't with alternative treatments, so much as friends and family prosyletizing to a captive audience.

Han Shan said:
But Iím willing to keep an open mind when it comes to various supplements and herbs and Iím willing to carefully weigh out the pros and cons of using such treatments. Just because your doctor didnít tell you about or just because you didnít pay $3000 for one infusion of it doesnít mean it wonít help.
Agreed, but I'm drawing the line at fecal transplants.


The procedure involves getting a close relative of the patient, such as a sibling, to donate several days-worth of stool. Louie tests the stool for diseases such as hepatitis and HIV and then mixes it with saline to create liquid feces. He then administers the stool to the patient through an enema.
According to this journal article you can get your fecal transplant via nasogastric tube as well. Pediasure has never looked so good.



In all seriousness, the last time I was cornered by someone in real life pushing a cray-zee cure on me I responded in kind and gave them a 10 minute monologue on fecal transplants and the wonders of worm therapy. It was a complete success in that all conversants completely dropped the original topic (I think it was the proper olive oil to use in cooking for a cure). It was a nuclear derailment.
01-28-2009, 11:04 PM   #11
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As for getting rid of the pestering, the only thing I've done is to try their stuff and then tell them when it doesn't work. As long as it's not something harmful or something that costs you anything you might as well. Just make sure you don't agree to do something stupid like drinking mercury.

Something people seem to forget is that we have a way of definitively knowing if something works or not. There's no room for argument. It's called the scientific method.

Pharmaceutical companies are forced to undergo this test against their will due to the government (at the request of the people) having laws that make them do it in order to protect the people. The reason for this is that those pharmaceutical companies were selling a lot of the same things 'naturopaths' sell us now and it was wasting people's time, money, and also making people sick and disabling/killing them.

So, instead of the old days when the big pharmaceutical companies were selling us snake oil as well as medicine, we now have the pharmaceutical companies restricted to only selling us medicine and we have a new group selling us the snake oil. This works out for some people because they are smart enough to make a good decision on who's less likely to screw them. Unfortunately, like all tests of intelligence, we have some people who flunk out for one reason or another.

As for various herbs helping anyone there's nothing to stop you from using that scientific method thingy to find out the truth. Believing and trusting have nothing to do with it really. It's a simple matter of fact. It works, yes or no? Ask yourself why the people who push these natural wonder-cures never test their products.

Some people will answer this by saying that clinical tests are so expensive that no one but a multi-billion dollar drug company can do this. That is complete and utter BS. For one most of the companies selling herbal remedies are awash in cash, especially when their profit margin for selling a completely unrefined weed or food by-product is so incredibly high. 35 dollars for 10 cents worth of algae they scraped off the side of a water trough? Come on. You can do a small scale (1,000 or so people) study for no more than the cost of the product, 1 employee, and a few newspaper ads.

If they had any hope whatsoever that their product worked they would do these tests and plaster the results of the study on their body in giant neon letters. It would increase their sales hundreds of times over. But, they're as greedy and happy to screw people over to make a buck as the pharmaceutical companies are. The difference is that laws force the pharmaceutical companies to prove their products work. Herbs and such are legally considered food and as such are not able to be regulated.

Now, some times tests have been done and those remedies that do work to any degree whatsoever (like willow bark, penicillium, insulin, saint john's wart, etc) are quickly snatched by those drug companies, have all the nasty stuff that give you extra side-effects and risk of contamination refined out of them and concentrate them to a level where they have a definite strong effect. Actually, almost every single pharmaceutical drug comes from a natural source. It's simply that in their natural form they're next to worthless in effectiveness or without heavy refining the natural form is dangerous. Refining things so that you take the bad stuff out and keep lots of the good stuff does not make it any less 'natural.' Not that being natural makes something better or worse any more than something being purple makes it better or worse.
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Last edited by Colt; 01-28-2009 at 11:06 PM.
01-29-2009, 06:18 AM   #12
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Thanks Colt, once again you've backed up my argument with a much more eloquent reply.

As I said earlier, Doctors have an obligation, above all else, to treat their patients to the best of their ability. Sometimes their ability may not be up to the standard of others. But they must try to help their patients.

Would they not give patients these herbs/wonder cures if they thought they would help?

Each to their own, but I'm sticking with my Doctors advise.


Back on topic, I generally tell people, "thanks, but no thanks." I explain that my condition is not caused by some vitamin deficiency or other, and unless the herb can reprogram my immune system, I'll stick with the drugs.
01-29-2009, 09:15 PM   #13
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More long winded than eloquent, but thanks anyway.
02-03-2009, 10:44 AM   #14
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I think we should have an open mind. If we see an alternative treatment, research it a lot first, and if it makes some sense and has no side effects, why not give it a try. It might help..... I think a multivit, fish oil, SCD diet do help some and are worth trying
02-03-2009, 10:50 AM   #15
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I think an alternative solution would be great, but I have little faith in them. My docs are not prescription pushers and actually are pretty conservative about giving you meds all together. I have faith in that they are trying to help me without unnecessary meds. There have been many times I have been told to try something over the counter by my docs. They tell me they could give me a prescription, but it is cheaper for me to get it at the store. Not all docs are about giving meds.

I do believe that if there was something that diffinitively worked for Crohn's they would give it to us. It just seems that what works for one person doesn't work for others. The disease is just crazy like that I guess. I agree with Mazen, why not give it a try if it looks promising.
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02-03-2009, 01:53 PM   #16
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I think there is being open-minded and then there is being irrational. I don't think the original poster was talking about the time-tested (and generally doctor approved) types of natural treatments, such as fish oil or probiotics. She was talking about CRAZY treatments (really, there is a secret machine that CURES all sorts of illnesses....and the hospitals haven't picked them up yet....wow!).

For me, it drives me crazy when people tell me that their mother, brother, friend, casual acquaitance had "stomach issues" and they started _____ (avoiding dairy, gluten, became a vegan, etc.) and everything cleared up. It drives me crazy. Its like its somehow my own fault that I'm still sick because I haven't tried this one thing.

I usually respond with something like, "Oh, well I know that some people's conditions respond to _____, I've never found that my Crohns responds to diet changes/supplements/etc."

For the crazy frequency girl, I'd just smile and nod. Seriously, frequency machines? Its like arguing with scientologists (no offense any scientologists on the board), its probably just not worth it.

Boo silly people.
02-03-2009, 07:15 PM   #17
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I have two frequency machines referred to as Rife devices after the person who invented this treatment method, Royal Rife. He also developed the only light microscope that could see viruses in 1930's. Something that has only been rivaled recently. He was a genious and top notch bacteriologist.

It is a legitimate way of treating certain conditions. By legitimate, I mean it works to one degree or another for certain conditions. It is not an accepted medical treatment, which is how some people define "legitimate". So you can pick your own definition.

My wife uses it to treat Lyme disease, which is one disease it works very well for. It has kept her in far better condition than most people with this disease, and far better condition than when she first contracted Lyme.

I have used it for Crohn's and had some interesting results, but no resolution from symptoms. In order for the machine to work I would need to know exactly what pathogens were responsible for the disease and the exact frequency that would damage the pathogen, assuming there was a known working frequency.

I did resolve my H-Pylori problem with a few 20 minute treatments. I could not resolve my Crohn's symptoms due to the problems already mentioned.

It is not wise to dismiss any treatment based on no personal research. Some alternative treatments work well, some only work under certain circumstances, and others are likely worthless.

If a person does try out a frequency device the most suspect bacteria to target, in my opinion are H-Pylori, Bovine Tuberculosis (MAP) and E-Coli.

The MAP is most suspect but good luck finding an effective frequency for this.

No one should push anyone to any treatment they are not interested in. My doctor's nurse couldn't convince me to take Imuran, and I am glad I didn't.
That is your personal decision and it should be respected.

Dan
02-04-2009, 09:13 PM   #18
Colt
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And the reason this device has not passed an objective scientific experiment and been pushed by medical equipment companies on hospitals for a few hundred thousand dollars a piece is what?
02-04-2009, 10:39 PM   #19
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The reason is the same for any other cheap treatments. There is no big money to be made. Medicine is a system based on profit first.

Same reason the testing for Low Dose Naltrexone is stalled out. No big money to be made. There is little question as to if it works, there are quite a few people who use it successfully for various autoimmune diseases, but to get it approved costs lots of money. Money that cannot be recouped by sales of this cheap drug.

These type of frequency machines are not patentable and therefore very little profit margin. The cheapest machine can be bought for a few hundred dollars, the most expensive is about five thousand (Resonant Light Perl sold in Canada) Who would put up millions to make thousands only to have a hundred competitors who did not put up testing money selling exactly the same machine?

Dan
02-05-2009, 06:47 AM   #20
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D Bergy said:
The reason is the same for any other cheap treatments. There is no big money to be made. Medicine is a system based on profit first.
Dan, I have explained before, how in this country, hospitals are not in business to make money, unlike the U.S.

They have to work to a budget, that they receive from the government on a yearly basis. We have a public health system, Doctors in this country are not here "To make money" apart from their salaries.

Again, I'll ask the same question as Colt. If these machines work, why are they not installed in hospitals here in Ireland, where, if they work so well, they would save the hospitals money that they could use for other patients.

Again I'll stress, hospitals here are not profit making businesses. Quite the opposite, they try to save money at every opportunity.

But then again, it's probably a conspiracy. All the Doctors in the world toss away their Hippocratic oath, the moment they qualify, and become conspirators with drug companies to push drugs that don't actually work....

Damn those Doctors....
02-05-2009, 12:00 PM   #21
D Bergy
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If the doctors in Ireland are truly allowed to use what is in the best interest of their patient then go try get a prescription for Low Dose Naltrexone and see what happens.

It is cheap, has no serious side effects and works most of the time. According to your description of how the system works, they should be more than happy to prescribe it, due to its cheap cost, and or the effectiveness, and lack of side effects.

They will tell you that not enough studies have been done. Even though the side effects are well documented already.

They will also tell you that no studies are being done in Ireland despite the huge potential benefit from the cost standpoint and also the patient benefit.
This does not jive with your description of how the system works. This drug should be in the front line for approval.

I am quite sure a more expensive drug with loads of potential side effects will be readily available for your use.

I also never suggested a conspiracy of doctors. It is simple economics. I also never suggested drugs do not work. I would rather take Fish Oil to lower my Cholesterol that a Statin Drug with side effects. My insurance will only pay for a Statin Drug although Fish Oil works as well. Do you think that is because they are concerned about the deadly properties of Fish Oil or that the Statin Drugs are safer or cheaper?

These situations would not exist in a truly patient oriented health system. What is approved is what counts.

An orange will resolve Scurvey, but in the strict interpretation of U.S. laws regarding treatments, an Orange would have to go through millions of dollars of studies to determine safety and effectiveness, before a doctor could use it to cure Scurvey. So if you get Scurvey, a doctor cannot legally prescibe an Orange to treat it. He can give you any number of approved drugs to treat it.

Look up Cherry grower association and there battle with the FDA regarding the Health Benefits of Cherries. Cherries are not a drug and cannot be advertised as a treatment or make any health claims regarding their well proven properties in disease treatment or prevention.

There is no dispute that Cherries can in fact resolve many health problems. But no one can advertise that fact. Do you think this is because Cherries are a potential threat to consumers health? Or is it more likely that they are a threat to a pharmaceutical companies profit. Which seems more reasonable?

When was the last time a doctor prescibed fruit to resolve a health issue? It is not because it is not able to resolve health issues, it is because it is not approved. There is a huge difference.

Dan
02-05-2009, 02:06 PM   #22
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A Doctor wouldn't prescribe fruit, he/she would say: "You should eat some fruit... and don't drink so much while you're at it... and get some exercise..."

I can't speak for Ireland, but in the UK we have NICE (National Institute for Clinical Excellence) who approve all drugs that can be prescribed on the NHS. One of the criteria for approval is the proven clinical benefits following clinical trials etc etc, as others have noted above. Rather curiously, NICE have taken it upon themselves to limit the availability of effective drugs purely on cost grounds, which has been the subject of media and political debate for quite a while now. This would seem to run contrary to your argument, DB
02-05-2009, 04:19 PM   #23
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I am not privy to every countries individual policy on health care. I am only familier with ours in the U.S.

But even in the situation you describe the motivater behind the treatment available is money, not effectiveness. I am not saying that is not a consideration in any treatment. If all other things are equal it certainly makes sense to use the cheaper option.

In the U.S. the organizations with the most clout in health care are pharmaceutical companies and insurance companies. Doctors really do not have all that much power in deciding which treatments to be used. They are limited to what is approved. If it is not approved then they will not be reimbursed by insurers. Pharmaceutical companies do the bulk of the testing for new drugs and treatments. It only makes sense that they are going to put most of their resources behind the ones that have the most potential profit, regardless of which treatments would be the most effective and beneficial to the patient. That is why we have a have dozen or more erectile dysfunction drugs on our television advertisements. They are hugely profitable. It is not because it is the most pressing medical problem in the U.S.

Since LDN is not profitable the pharmaceutical industry is not under any circumstances going to do the testing needed for approval. It would be a waste of resources to do so. It would also undercut the more profitable drugs they sell for all of the autoimmune diseases LDN is used for.

Shareholders could even hold them liable for acting against the companies best interest. The end result is that many cheap treatments do not ever get the testing required for approval, since little testing occurs by any other entity. It is not a conspiracy, it is simply a poor system of approval with no motivation to test cheap treatments by the entities that do most of the testing.

My point in the whole dicussion is that unapproved treatments does not mean fraudulent or ineffective treatment, although that is one possibility. It simply means it is not approved for whatever reason.

Almost all current medical treatments and procedures were at one time unapproved. It would be foolish to think they did not work until they acheived the mantle of approved status.

Dan
02-05-2009, 10:18 PM   #24
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How cheap the thing is to make has nothing to do with how much medical equipment companies charge hospitals for the equipment and how much the hospitals charge their patients. Things being cheap to make have nothing to do with their price in the medical world.

A $2 tube of toothpaste will be charged to the patient for about $10 and that includes if you only use it once. They keep what's left in the bottle.

An ESR test usually costs $40-$60. All they do is put a drop of blood in a graduated vial and then check it 20 minutes later and write down how far down the blood has gone. The cost for them with all the expenses added up? Roughly 10 cents.

When I stick someone they charge them $18. I stick 10 people in an hour. That's $180 dollars an hour that I make them. Me and 50 cents or so worth of disposable equipment are all it costs them. They pay me $10.26 an hour. That's more than 15 times the cost in pure profit.

The use of a machine that costs $5,000 in the real world? We're talking about something like $2,000 per treatment. About in line with remicade but used a LOT more frequently. Of course the medical equipment companies would jack up the price too and the hospitals would be paying at least $20,000.

ANYTHING is profitable in the medical field. The price of manufacture has nothing to do with the price of sale. The price is based on the largest amount you can charge before people refuse to buy it. The more of a necessity it is the more you can get away with charging. At some point you reach a level where people will not turn it down no matter how much it costs. Namely anything that leaves one's life or basic needs at risk.

Hospitals could charge a million dollars per night for a bed if they felt like it and short of public outrage to the point of laws being passed they would get away with it. If you're in a car wreck and you've got a fractured spine are you going to tell the paramedics to let you lay there and die because you think the hospital is too expensive? Does the fact that it only costs a hundred dollars or so to keep you in that bed matter in that decision? That's how capitalism works.

The only reason major companies are not trying to sell it is because no one needs it. If it worked people would buy it but if scientific testing has proven that it doesn't work the vast majority of people would refuse to pay for it because they know they have the option of not doing so. That leaves a very small market consisting of people who mistake anecdotal evidence as proof and also believe in practically every conspiracy theory they hear, which granted is still there but means that there's only room for a few smaller companies to make a profit. Mass producing magic healing machines of any kind would be economic disaster.

Oh, and do remember that the company you buy your magic healing machine or magic healing potion from is making a huge profit too. They're not charities. They're just taking advantage of a smaller market with less regulation than their big brothers. Any time you look at the ingredients of a $40 bottle the size of your thumb and it says 'ginger, garlic, seaweed, egg shell' it should be obvious.

Last edited by Colt; 02-05-2009 at 10:22 PM.
02-06-2009, 08:08 AM   #25
danman
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Thanks Colt again.

The main cost of drugs go towards it's testing and development, not the actual ingredients. Your argument, saying certain alternative drugs are cheaper and don't give enough profit is flawed. The fact is, if they were tested and proved to be beneficial, they would be worth more to the companies selling them, therefore more profit.

As colt said, The companies selling alternatives aren't doing this for the good of our, or their health. It's to make money, just like the big drug companies.

The reason Doctors won't prescribe untested drugs is obvious, your being blinded by the alternative companies literature.
If a Doctor prescribed an untested drug, and it caused an unknown side effect (BECAUSE IT HADN'T BEEN TESTED PROPERLY), he/she would be sued and or, lose their licence.

So lets go back to your argument about Low Dose Naltrexone.
You said it wouldn't be prescribed because,

"They will tell you that not enough studies have been done. Even though the side effects are well documented already."

Does it not make sense that it wouldn't be prescribed, if it hasn't been properly tested, for the above reason.

As for asking a doctor to prescribe fruit, you getting ridiculous on that count.
If I had scurvy, my doctor would not prescribe anything, simply tell me to have an orange. Again, your statement implies that Docs will simply hand out drugs, rather than think of the well being of his/her patient.
Perhaps some are like that, the majority aren't.

You are taking the U.S. health care system, capitalism, as being the main example of healthcare. There are other countries in the world that the drug companies need to sell their products in. The U.S. is probably only a small percentage of their overall turnover.

All the European countries, probably the same size of population as the U.S., have public health systems the same as here in Ireland and Britain. They are a mix of, mostly public, and private healthcare. The public healthcare is for everyone and paid for by the taxes, the private is optional. (Personally, I was told by my GI not to go private, as I would have the same care. Saving me money, losing him money... go figure that one out).

So yes, they have to make money. But to sell their wares here in Europe, they have to go through trials in each individual country. I may be wrong, but in the U.S., they only have to satisfy the Federal Government.
This costs money, and I'm only giving Europe and the U.S. as examples, there's South America, Asia, etc.

So, yes, drugs are expensive. They have to be expensive, if they go through trials.
When Low Dose Naltrexone goes through all the trials and tests, in all the countries it needs, to be commercially available to doctors patients, It may not end up being the cheaper alternative you describe. But it will be worth more to the company selling it.

Last edited by danman; 02-06-2009 at 08:29 AM.
02-06-2009, 01:37 PM   #26
D Bergy
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Yes, all companies make money on their products or services. But the only way you can make the obscene profits that pharmaceutical companies is to have a patentable medication. The patent went off of Naltrexone a long time ago. They could change it somewhat and get a new patent and that is your greatest hope that they would get it approved for autoimmune disease.

Any one who invests in stocks can tell you the profits of Pharma companies average higher than any other business in the world with no exceptions. They are not making this kind of money selling aspirin or Naltrexone.

My argument is supported by real life. LDN is being used by many people now, even though there is difficulty getting a prescription. It is used by people with many different Autoimmune diseases. Certainly if we know that, the pharma people are also aware of that. If they thought there was serious money to be made they would already be testing LDN. They are not. There is several promising treatments in the works right now that never get there support. It is because they are not profitable or they would cut into profits of existing drugs.

Your argument that everything is profitable to a hospital does not apply to the vast majority that are not in the hospital. Even hospitals are managing to go broke with five dollar aspirin. Consumers can buy these machines right now for a few hundred dollars and use it themselves, why would they go to the hospital and use them? Just how do you buy your aspirin? Have you ever walked into a hospital and bought Aspirin?

Pharmaceutical companies spend far more on marketing than R&D. Your assumption is just not supported by accounting.

I never implied that a doctor should prescribe untested drugs. My example is that it is technically illegal for the doctor to recommend Fish Oil to control Cholesterol, even though it works as well and has no side effects. Naltrexone has no serious side effects and will either work or it will not. There is no reason to keep someone from using it due to safety concerns. I am assuming as adults we can make our own decision.

There are several non drug methods of controlling Cholesterol that are proven to work. I have never yet had a doctor ever recommend any of them.
Find me a logical explanation of why a method with no side effects is not the first thing you try use instead of not mentioned at all?

He technically cannot recommend Cherries to cure your gout, because Cherries are not drugs and only drugs can treat disease under FDA rules. Even though Cherries have no side effects and can work just as well.
My argument is that it is foolish to take drugs when food will do the job.

He probably will not get into any trouble telling you to eat Cherries in real life, but he will if he makes a habit replacing drugs with food, even if the the results are the same or better.

The only reason major companies are not trying to sell it is because no one needs it. If it worked people would buy it but if scientific testing has proven that it doesn't work the vast majority of people would refuse to pay for it because they know they have the option of not doing so. That leaves a very small market consisting of people who mistake anecdotal evidence as proof and also believe in practically every conspiracy theory they hear, which granted is still there but means that there's only room for a few smaller companies to make a profit. Mass producing magic healing machines of any kind would be economic disaster.

I am not even going to address the above condescending garbage. I have been around long enough to know fact from fiction.

Dan
02-06-2009, 03:13 PM   #27
Han Shan
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As for various herbs helping anyone there's nothing to stop you from using that scientific method thingy to find out the truth. Believing and trusting have nothing to do with it really. It's a simple matter of fact. It works, yes or no? Ask yourself why the people who push these natural wonder-cures never test their products.
Colt, are you suggesting that certain herbs and supplements have never been subjected to double blind studies and shown beneficial effects for certain conditions? Your notion that this has never occured is certainly not rooted in reality. (I see elsewhere in your post you do admit that testing has shown a degree of effects in some cases, but then you contradict yourself by saying these same plants are worthless in their natural form).

According to you, these supplement companies are awash in millions of dollars (that they could then theoretically use to run their own double blind testing). Suppose the reason why some of these companies are awash in so much money is because of the testing that has already been performed in controlled studies, the results of which are then widely disseminated in the media, making consumers aware of the potential benefits to some of these products?

Have you ever heard of Sedacrohn? It's marketed just for IBD. It's a preparation of the wormwood plant, that has demonstrated very positive outcomes in a double blind study:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...ddcc965215b971

So, okay, here is an herbal preparation that helped put 13 out of 20 (65%, not bad - 18 out of 20 saw improvements) people in the treatment group in the double blind study into remission, as opposed to the control group, where only 4 people out of 20 saw the same level of improvement. Given that Sedacrohn has been through the double blind study that you are such a proponent of, would you be willing to give it a try and report back to the board what happens to you? I would imagine not, since your mind already seems made up about herbal medicines. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to think that herbal medicines are all snake oil, unless they've been refined and manipulated in a laboratory.

For the record, I have used Sedacrohn. I'm on conventional treatments as well, but I went into remission within two weeks of starting Sedacrohn. At the time I began Sedacrohn I had been through four Remicade treatments, which hadn't improved my condition in the slightest. After looking at my last round of bloodwork, my GI doc said you would never know I have Crohn's based on my bloodwork. Coincidence? Maybe, but I don't think so.

Actually, almost every single pharmaceutical drug comes from a natural source. It's simply that in their natural form they're next to worthless in effectiveness or without heavy refining the natural form is dangerous. Refining things so that you take the bad stuff out and keep lots of the good stuff does not make it any less 'natural.' Not that being natural makes something better or worse any more than something being purple makes it better or worse.
Next to worthless in their natural form, really? And dangerous too? In each and every single case? What a preposterous statement. Traditional, indigenous societies have been using botanical preparations for centuries to treat illness in their societies. If these treatments are dangerous, as well as worthless, then you would think natural selection would have removed these societies from the gene pool long ago. Or at the very least motivated them to stop using some of these plants since they are, to use your words, "dangerous" and "worthless."

Whether you know it or not, or want to believe it or not, there are quite a number of plants that can be used safely and effectively for any number of conditions. They don't need to be refined in laboratories by chemists in order to be safe and useful.

Many cancer and HIV patients state that marinol is next to worthless compared to the real marijuana plant. Marinol is something compounded in the laboratory by synthesizing a select number of cannabinoids, the compounds responsible for the smokable effects. Smoked marijuana is more effective because it is the whole spectrum of cannabinoids that contribute to effects that help them through chemotherapy treatments and stimulate appetite. If marinol were so great, there wouldn't be so many sick people willing to risk serious prison time so they can get the real, unrefined plant. This plant in its unrefined form is, according to your blanket statement above, worthless and dangerous.
02-06-2009, 04:00 PM   #28
Han Shan
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Join Date: May 2008
One more thing regarding the machines that D Bergy has mentioned and which have been deridden by certain posters...Bioelectric medicine is a legitimate field of study and there are a number of studies that have been published about using electrical currents to kill bacteria. Go to Pubmed and run a keyword search on "bioelectric effect" and "bacteria" to read the abstracts of the peer reviewed research articles which have been published.

It is a field still in its infancy, but the bioelectric effect shows promise in targeting and destroying certain bacteria. The notion suggested by some that this is some wacky idea emanating from a lunatic fringe, with no plausible applications for the medical field, is simply not rooted in reality. So when somebody claims to be able to treat disease using electrical currents, I'm not going to dismiss it out of hand because it doesn't fit with my preconceived worldview. But I'm not saying i would buy into it hook, line, and sinker either.
02-06-2009, 05:03 PM   #29
soupdragon69
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Hey folks,

Having looked back at Lizzys' first post on this thread and her request for help as to how to tell someone very insistent she just isnt interested in trying what they are suggesting politely I have a question....

Do you think its possible this thread has taken another direction totally here and could it be better discussed elsewhere???

Am sure Lizzy and others would appreciate any further advice you may have in relation to her original question...

Just a thought..
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Brittle asthma 1996, Hypothyroidism 1998, Severe Crohns ileitis 2006 , Severe IBS 2007, Inflammatory/Rheumatoid Arthritis 2008, Sebhorreic Eczema and Folliculitis 1992, Roseca, steroid induced acne and Hidradenitis Suppurativa 2008, Multiple allergies and food intolerances diagnosed from 2003. Newly diagnosed fibromyalgia Dec 2009. Newly diagnosed calcific tendonitis Jan 2010. Chronic Pain diagnosed Dec 2010.
02-07-2009, 12:56 PM   #30
D Bergy
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Your friend is well meaning but over zealous either because she has had success with some treatment, thinks she had success, or just believes it will work out of faith.

It simply is not that easy to do what she is proposing with a frequency device. Technically, it is impossible to cure Crohn's with any present treatment, conventional or otherwise.

It does not help with most conditions, and fails completely on many. There are only a select few, that are reliably repeatable, and Crohn's has never been helped to any extent using this type of device to my knowledge. And I have dug into this quite extensively since it was one of the very few available treatment options for my wife.

If it helps, you can tell her that someone with a few years of experience has told you that it is very unlikely to work for Crohn's. That is my opinion based on actual use for Crohn's.

If you had Lyme disease my answer would be completely opposite, but that does not help anyone here.

Just for the record, this is not a Naturopathic treatment, although it is often lumped into that category for reasons unknown to me.

I have used a few unconventional treatments for Crohn's. Some worked well for me and some did nothing. Frequency treatments were not among the useful ones.

Good luck!
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