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10-23-2015, 01:07 PM   #601
Spooky1
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Still sounds promising to me. Just biding my time.
10-23-2015, 02:10 PM   #602
wildbill_52280
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Fecal Transplant could help Multiple sclerosis.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0137429

Dr borody treated a man with MS for constipation with a fecal transplant and afterwards his MS improved, which suggested the FMT help or cured it. So borody may have done it again!! I hope more studies will be done to prove it.
http://freakonomics.com/2011/03/04/f...power-of-poop/
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10-24-2015, 12:00 AM   #603
wildbill_52280
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Fecal Transplant could help Multiple sclerosis.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0137429

Dr borody treated a man with MS for constipation with a fecal transplant and afterwards his MS improved, which suggested the FMT help or cured it. So borody may have done it again!! I hope more studies will be done to prove it.
http://freakonomics.com/2011/03/04/f...power-of-poop/
Just one more interesting thing about this study on MS microbiome:

These taxa comprised primarily of clostridial species belonging to Clostridia clusters XIVa and IV and Bacteroidetes. The phylogenetic tree analysis revealed that none of the clostridial species that were significantly reduced in the gut microbiota of patients with MS overlapped with other spore-forming clostridial species capable of inducing colonic regulatory T cells (Treg), which prevent autoimmunity and allergies; this suggests that many of the clostridial species associated with MS might be distinct from those broadly associated with autoimmune conditions
Clostridial bacteria also are found lacking diversity in IBD microbiome and at first I was afraid this information would contradict the theory that the bacteria missing in IBD is the first and prime cause of the disease, but it seems the theory still stands and restoring the bacteria with an FMT is likely to cure BOTH conditions as the bacteria missing either in IBD or MS are distinct but have similar sounding names.

Last edited by wildbill_52280; 10-24-2015 at 01:51 PM.
10-24-2015, 03:05 AM   #604
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I'm right to remain hopeful then. Sometime in the near future they will cure us. I just regret the 40 years I've suffered it. Roll on FMT tests.
10-28-2015, 11:01 PM   #605
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Fecal Transplant could help Multiple sclerosis.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0137429

Dr borody treated a man with MS for constipation with a fecal transplant and afterwards his MS improved, which suggested the FMT help or cured it. So borody may have done it again!! I hope more studies will be done to prove it.
http://freakonomics.com/2011/03/04/f...power-of-poop/
Just my 2 cents,
You do have to understand, its not only bacteria that you can replace,
Its also the curent enviroment in the gut that plays a massive part.
I have done the fmt with perfect donors orally, and failed on multiple occasions.

And i always corelate back to the various studies,
2 variables always play apart in the other fmt studies that are succesful...
1)antibiotics - though i disagree with this method as, eradicating the current gut flora, doesnt automatically switch off innflammation...its takes time for inflammation to go down for sure.

2) in the studies, the docs never take them of steroids... they might taper them off slowly... but even at the end of the fmt weeks... they still use minute amounts of steroids ..

In my opinion, i really think the environment plays the biggest factor in allowing the donors flora to take part..

People who often have the constipation side of bowel problems... do not have uncontrollable levels of gut inflammation!
Easier to help them with fmt.. higher success rate.

Lastly, i would like to say, i have seen studies showing, when inflammation is quelled thiugh steroids or any other drugs people may use... if inflammtion goes down, the gut flora reverses very quickly to closely resemble those of control patients.
10-29-2015, 02:19 PM   #606
wildbill_52280
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Just my 2 cents,
You do have to understand, its not only bacteria that you can replace,
Its also the curent enviroment in the gut that plays a massive part.
I have done the fmt with perfect donors orally, and failed on multiple occasions.

And i always corelate back to the various studies,
2 variables always play apart in the other fmt studies that are succesful...
1)antibiotics - though i disagree with this method as, eradicating the current gut flora, doesnt automatically switch off innflammation...its takes time for inflammation to go down for sure.

2) in the studies, the docs never take them of steroids... they might taper them off slowly... but even at the end of the fmt weeks... they still use minute amounts of steroids ..

In my opinion, i really think the environment plays the biggest factor in allowing the donors flora to take part..

People who often have the constipation side of bowel problems... do not have uncontrollable levels of gut inflammation!
Easier to help them with fmt.. higher success rate.

Lastly, i would like to say, i have seen studies showing, when inflammation is quelled thiugh steroids or any other drugs people may use... if inflammtion goes down, the gut flora reverses very quickly to closely resemble those of control patients.
You bring up a good point and this is something I'm aware of. without a pill giving the precise amount of bacteria needed, factors like the disease state of the patient will begin to outweigh a DIY protocol and you will not achieve success. Achieving success with an at home DIY Fecal transplant is difficult, can it ever be done successfully? I'm not sure yet but I'm convinced it's difficult at this point.
10-29-2015, 02:23 PM   #607
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Another company created a Fecal Transplant pill. I assume this is based on the whole flora which his probably freeze dried. It's patent pending so I'm wondering if they will get a patent for it, its doubtful Professor borody own's a similar patent and i recall university of minnesota created a similar full spectrum flora FMT pill, which seemed to be completely terminated there no more evidence anywhere on the net that this is still in the works, I also assume from patent issues, but i don't really know.

http://www.openbiome.org/press-relea...l-dosing-study
10-29-2015, 07:51 PM   #608
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One thing that plays a critical role is the host immune system. It can act like an herbicide and kill off a good portion of the gut flora, or negatively impact the mucus membrane which provides much of the nutrients to the bacteria. It's the chicken or the egg causality dilemma. We don't know which came first, an imbalance in the bacteria triggering an immune response, or an off-kilter immune system disrupting normal flora.
10-30-2015, 11:14 AM   #609
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One thing that plays a critical role is the host immune system. It can act like an herbicide and kill off a good portion of the gut flora, or negatively impact the mucus membrane which provides much of the nutrients to the bacteria. It's the chicken or the egg causality dilemma. We don't know which came first, an imbalance in the bacteria triggering an immune response, or an off-kilter immune system disrupting normal flora.
I do not believe is just a coincidence that the bacteria missing in IBD play a large role in regulating inflammatory response. This strongly suggests, the microbiota was damaged and immune system went out of whack, and restoring these bacteia with a Fecal Microbiota Transplant, can reverse/cure IBD. If it were the case that these bacteria that were missing had a complelet unrelated function, then i would consider an alternative theory, and see these missing bacteria as insignificant in explaining IBD.

Another observation to consider is that when people are in remission and inflammation is suppressed with drugs, the reduced diversity in good bacteria doesn't correct itself, which suggests the immune system malfunction isn't the cause of missing bacteria. In other words the immune system hasn't killed them off or pushed them out or whatever.
10-30-2015, 09:03 PM   #610
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The model doesn't explain pediatric IBD, say when no prior ABX use is involved.
11-02-2015, 01:33 PM   #611
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Nice video on Microbiome Science.
http://nutritionfacts.org/video/micr...e-inside-story
11-02-2015, 08:48 PM   #612
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''Donor species richness determines fecal microbiota transplantation success in inflammatory bowel disease'':

http://ecco-jcc.oxfordjournals.org/c...cco-jcc.jjv203

anyone has full article?
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11-06-2015, 09:10 PM   #613
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Pretty lengthy article on FMT.

http://www.24news.ca/the-news/canada...-a-wonder-cure
11-07-2015, 04:09 AM   #614
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Thanks, Bill.

That's also a highly readable one too. Not too 'official' or blinding with 'science'.
11-08-2015, 02:37 PM   #615
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Reduced Diversity in Microbiome bacteria in Lupus, which suggest Fecal Transplant could help.

http://www.hcplive.com/conference-co...iggering-lupus
11-27-2015, 04:04 PM   #616
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Something I've been talking about for a few years now. There is no abstract though.

Methodology, Not Concept of Fecal Microbiota Transplantation, Affects Clinical Findings

Medical Center for Digestive Diseases, The Second Affiliated Hospital of Nanjing Medical University, Nanjing, China
Available online 23 November 2015

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...16508515015814
12-01-2015, 07:39 AM   #617
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Hi Wildbill - a couple of quick questions that may have been answered already, but I haven't had time to search the whole thread. Does FMT work better in UC or Crohn's where the colon is involved? If disease is limited to the small intestine, would the route of FMT need to be oral vs. via enema? In Crohn's patients that have tested positive for a pathogenic mycobacteria through Aitken's lab, do you think a course of AMAT followed by (or run concurrent with) FMT would be beneficial? Kind of a double whammie - killing the bad bug plus restoring the beneficial bacteria which seems to be impaired in CD.

I seem to recall Dr. Rubin's video from Chicago discussing the gut flora in CD patients being permanently impaired vs. controls and unable to recover from a course of antibiotics. Although I'm on AMAT and have done remarkably well, I think there may be something more needed to rehab the immune system and microbiome. I added LDN which seems to be working since I'm not sick. I know Dr. Chamberlin and Dr. Borody are both in favor of FMT but they use AMAT as well. Have you ever heard either reconcile the two?

I think the biggest issue with both of these is that they're both difficult for the average patient to obtain. GI's won't generally touch AMAT, and FMT has to be done correctly with supervision of a knowledgeable doc and correct donor matter. Did I hear Dr. Borody was working on a pill? So both could be beneficial if done right I believe. Also, do you think in the interim FMT could be done on people with colon disease using fivelac or other probiotic enema instead of fecal matter? Another member here had huge success with that in CD.

All very interesting and exciting. Thanks for the thread! I hope you are well.
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12-05-2015, 01:22 PM   #618
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Irishgal, I will try to answer your questions. I don't consider myself an absolute expert in all these areas but ill try to help.

Does FMT work better in UC or Crohn's where the colon is involved? If disease is limited to the small intestine, would the route of FMT need to be oral vs. via enema? In Crohn's patients that have tested positive for a pathogenic mycobacteria through Aitken's lab, do you think a course of AMAT followed by (or run concurrent with) FMT would be beneficial? Kind of a double whammie - killing the bad bug plus restoring the beneficial bacteria which seems to be impaired in CD.
Studies so far suggest FMT as an enema and in any form is more effective in UC when compared to crohn's. Oral route's seem better for crohn's affecting small intestine, most studys are in the first post of this thread. Borodys experiment with FMt in 5 uc patients usining enemas used antibiotics prior to lower pathogenic bacteria and to encourage new bacteria to take hold better, this study wasn't enough to demonstrate it was more effective then without using antibiotics so really it is unknown whether this would improve FMT efficacy. In my opinion the antibiotic would have to be very precise to target pathogens and leave the good bacteria unharmed to have any benefit, other wise it's probably better not to use them at all so you can possibly preserve some of your own microbes that have been passed down through your family, antibiotics could also cause further damage since we know how important bacteria are for our health now. AMAT has shown efficacy, maybe it would help to use this prior to FMT, But FMT just need's to be available in pill form and most of these questions will be unimportant as we gain more control over how much bacteria and in what ratios a patient will recieve.




I think the biggest issue with both of these is that they're both difficult for the average patient to obtain. GI's won't generally touch AMAT, and FMT has to be done correctly with supervision of a knowledgeable doc and correct donor matter. Did I hear Dr. Borody was working on a pill? So both could be beneficial if done right I believe. Also, do you think in the interim FMT could be done on people with colon disease using fivelac or other probiotic enema instead of fecal matter? Another member here had huge success with that in CD.
I dont think using a store bought probiotic as an enema will have more benefit over consuming it orally, these bacteria need fiber from food anyways to grow and make beneficial compounds so eating it with a meal will have much more impact. Store bought probiotics will definitely not be comparable to a real FMT as the bacteria we need is not available which you probably know already, its only in healthy people's poop at the moment.

All very interesting and exciting. Thanks for the thread! I hope you are well.
Your welcome!
12-11-2015, 11:34 PM   #619
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This is interesting.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26616138

And this.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26525055
12-11-2015, 11:53 PM   #620
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I remember this. It's just crazy to think there was a time in the very recent past the FDA didn't care if anyone decided to do a fecal transplant until it was proven to be a valuable medicine curing C. difficile infection in a placebo controlled study, now it's strictly regulated. Those were the days!

The vast majority of FMTs were performed without any oversight or regulation until early 2013, when the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) ruled that stool fell within the definition of a biological product and drug.
http://journals.lww.com/jcge/Fulltex...spice,.16.aspx
12-12-2015, 12:00 AM   #621
wildbill_52280
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Potential risks of FMT.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26302500

EDIT: one more note about this, i recall a few months back a women developing obesity after a Fecal transplant which done under professional supervision, they these professionals knowingly chose a donor with obesity, something i personally would never have done even in a DIY FMT. So even some professionals may not want to read all the papers that exist on FMT and take the necessary precautions, the same could be with this reported case too. It's not necessarily FMT that is more dangerous just a lack of education and taking the time to screen donors.

Last edited by wildbill_52280; 12-12-2015 at 09:08 AM.
12-12-2015, 08:48 AM   #622
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Thanks for the articles wildbill. Wish I could read the pouchitis one! Looks like it's published ahead of print, so hopefully they will at least have an abstract when it's released.
12-13-2015, 04:56 PM   #623
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AbstractSend to:
World J Gastroenterol. 2015 Oct 14;21(38):10907-14. doi: 10.3748/wjg.v21.i38.10907.

Gastroenterologist perceptions of faecal microbiota transplantation.

Abstract

AIM:
To explore gastroenterologist perceptions towards and experience with faecal microbiota transplantation (FMT).

METHODS:
A questionnaire survey consisting of 17 questions was created to assess gastroenterologists' attitude towards and experience with FMT. This was anonymously distributed in hard copy format amongst attendees at gastroenterology meetings in Australia between October 2013 and April 2014. Basic descriptive statistical analyses were performed.

RESULTS:
Fifty-two clinicians participated. Twenty one percent had previously referred patients for FMT, 8% more than once. Ninety percent would refer patients with Clostridium difficile infection (CDI) for FMT if easily available, 37% for ulcerative colitis, 13% for Crohn's disease and 6% for irritable bowel syndrome. Six percent would not refer any indication, including recurrent CDI. Eighty-six percent would enroll patients in FMT clinical trials. Thirty-seven percent considered the optimal mode of FMT administration transcolonoscopic, 17% nasoduodenal, 13% enema and 8% oral capsule. The greatest concerns regarding FMT were: 42% lack of evidence, 12% infection risk, 10% non infectious adverse effects/lack of safety data, 10% aesthetic, 10% lack of efficacy, 4% disease exacerbation, and 2% inappropriate use; 6% had no concerns. Seventy seven percent believed there is a lack of accessibility while 52% had an interest in learning how to provide FMT. Only 6% offered FMT at their institution.

CONCLUSION:
Despite general enthusiasm, most gastroenterologists have limited experience with, or access to, FMT. The greatest concerns were lack of supportive evidence and safety issues. However a significant proportion would refer indications other than CDI for FMT despite insufficient evidence. These data provide guidance on where education and training are required.
12-14-2015, 06:03 PM   #624
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A new Article on webMD titled: The Rise of the Do-It-Yourself Fecal Transplant.

http://www.webmd.com/digestive-disor...src=RSS_PUBLIC
12-14-2015, 06:24 PM   #625
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A synthetic "fecal transplant pill" being tested soon for ulcerative colitis by the company Seres Health.

http://www.bizjournals.com/boston/bl...itis-with.html
12-14-2015, 10:52 PM   #626
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wow a synthetic pill that would be awesome. It is news such as these that keep me enthousiastic, thrilled, hopeful and confident there is going to be a friendly solution to our problems in the near future. I so wish to give a kick in the gut to these %#@#$%% meds I have to take!!!
12-15-2015, 10:03 PM   #627
wildbill_52280
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wow a synthetic pill that would be awesome. It is news such as these that keep me enthousiastic, thrilled, hopeful and confident there is going to be a friendly solution to our problems in the near future. I so wish to give a kick in the gut to these %#@#$%% meds I have to take!!!
A selection of bacteria or in other words, synthetic, would be the safest option. But we still don't know exactly which bacteria we need, most likely clostridia. Open biome is making Fecal transplant pill's on a large scale that contain the full spectrum of human bacteria. I'm hoping someone uses these to treat IBD, i think there is study underway for crohn's using FMT pills but dont have the link handy though, ill look for it.
http://www.openbiome.org/press-relea...l-dosing-study
12-18-2015, 10:36 AM   #628
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Just had a follow up scope this week. I am 1.5 years removed from an FMT done as part of a clinical trial. Couple of disclaimers- 1) I've had a mild course throughout my crohns journey 2) at the time of the FMT I was not doing too badly.

Scope grossly was normal- per the GI- "if this were your first time here I'd never know you have IBD." Biopsies are still pending.

Still have to avoid gluten/dairy. Both are in essense immunogenic and, in some ways promote IBS type sxs in those with any gut issues (some more than others.) They still cause a ton of gas, urgency, loud bowel sounds, and stool changes- certainly related to amount ingested.

I don't think I'll ever be able to know whether it was the FMT, havnig a mild course to begin with, having the FMT during relative quiescense, or who knows what. But a normal scope 1.5 years later only on VSL and watching diet- I'll take it.

Do not ask me to claim FMT is a cure. It isn't. I'm not cured. For NOW, I'm healed. I don't doubt this disease will show its ugl face again. I think of FMT as an OPTION. For those with mild colonic disease, dysbiosis symptoms- maybe give it a whirl.

Good luck to all. Hope everyone heals and feels well soon.
12-18-2015, 02:15 PM   #629
wildbill_52280
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Just had a follow up scope this week. I am 1.5 years removed from an FMT done as part of a clinical trial. Couple of disclaimers- 1) I've had a mild course throughout my crohns journey 2) at the time of the FMT I was not doing too badly.

Scope grossly was normal- per the GI- "if this were your first time here I'd never know you have IBD." Biopsies are still pending.

Still have to avoid gluten/dairy. Both are in essense immunogenic and, in some ways promote IBS type sxs in those with any gut issues (some more than others.) They still cause a ton of gas, urgency, loud bowel sounds, and stool changes- certainly related to amount ingested.

I don't think I'll ever be able to know whether it was the FMT, havnig a mild course to begin with, having the FMT during relative quiescense, or who knows what. But a normal scope 1.5 years later only on VSL and watching diet- I'll take it.

Do not ask me to claim FMT is a cure. It isn't. I'm not cured. For NOW, I'm healed. I don't doubt this disease will show its ugl face again. I think of FMT as an OPTION. For those with mild colonic disease, dysbiosis symptoms- maybe give it a whirl.

Good luck to all. Hope everyone heals and feels well soon.
Awesome, thanks for sharing.

It is an experimental treatment, so it is too soon to conclude whether it is a cure or not. It's not a simple issue because there are official reports of people being cured already. At this time the treatment must be improved, there are variables to FMT success such as how it is administered, the health of the donor, the diet of the donor, the severity of the patient, the diet of the patient, the amount of stool(bacteria) used, whether it was performed as an enema, nasogastric tube, how many treatments did the patient receive, did they use FMT pills. There are so many question's to be answered still which more research should be able to answer. The main goal here is to restore the good bacteria that is missing by obtaining it from a healthy donor, it's something so new, it's hard to do at the moment but we will get there soon.


How was the Fecal Microbiota Transplant you had administered?

Also have you ever considered that it is not the gluten that increases your symptoms but glyphosate(Roundup) residues on the wheat? or even the yeast used to leaven the bread? anti Saccharomyces cerevisiae antibodies are found in crohn's disease patients which means your immune systems see it as an invader and wants to kill it. I eat alot of homemade wheat products that cause no issues whatsoever, but some brands of wheat do cause issues, gold medal brand whole wheat causes no issues for me.
12-19-2015, 09:57 PM   #630
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Awesome, thanks for sharing.

It is an experimental treatment, so it is too soon to conclude whether it is a cure or not. It's not a simple issue because there are official reports of people being cured already. At this time the treatment must be improved, there are variables to FMT success such as how it is administered, the health of the donor, the diet of the donor, the severity of the patient, the diet of the patient, the amount of stool(bacteria) used, whether it was performed as an enema, nasogastric tube, how many treatments did the patient receive, did they use FMT pills. There are so many question's to be answered still which more research should be able to answer. The main goal here is to restore the good bacteria that is missing by obtaining it from a healthy donor, it's something so new, it's hard to do at the moment but we will get there soon.


How was the Fecal Microbiota Transplant you had administered?

Also have you ever considered that it is not the gluten that increases your symptoms but glyphosate(Roundup) residues on the wheat? or even the yeast used to leaven the bread? anti Saccharomyces cerevisiae antibodies are found in crohn's disease patients which means your immune systems see it as an invader and wants to kill it. I eat alot of homemade wheat products that cause no issues whatsoever, but some brands of wheat do cause issues, gold medal brand whole wheat causes no issues for me.


FMT was done via colonoscopy. Sprayed from TI through the transverse colon.

Good question about the wheat. It's entirely possible. It's interesting. I'll try to pay closer attention. My autoantibodies have been normal (ASCA/ANCA.)

The FMT was so simple in terms of the trial. Usual colo prep, got the scope. Held it for a few hours. Went home, was at work the next day. It's a low risk option. I don't see it as a "cure" b/c it cannot correct the host defect.

Cure is also a term I'm not a fan of. For me, I care about healing and decreasing risk of complication. I look at big ticket items, not the day to day variability in symptomatolgy. Diet, stress etc… can effect the GI system on a day to day basis even in the "normal" population. We can go crazy over thinking very fart or every bathroom trip. I try not to get caught up in that. I'd lose my sanity.
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