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Crohn's Disease Forum » Support Forum » Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual & Transgender » Schools defend right to expel gays.


07-06-2013, 09:50 PM   #1
DustyKat
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Schools defend right to expel gays.

A bid to overturn controversial laws allowing private schools to expel students simply because they are gay has been rejected by some faith-based schools as a threat to their religious freedom.


Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/schools-de...#ixzz2YK8s2iQF

In a submission to the recent Senate inquiry into federal anti-discrimination laws, the Human Rights Council of Australia argued that organisations that are wholly or partially funded with public funds, including religious schools, should not be granted exemptions on religious grounds. ''It is reasonable for the state to require public funds to be expended and applied wholly in accordance with principles of nondiscrimination,'' it said.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/schools-de...#ixzz2YK8lbQK5
I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment in the above paragraph. All schools in Australia receive some level of government funding and I am opposed to restriction of access being placed on a person at any time but even more so when independent/private schools happily put their hand out for public funding.

What is the experience like for those elsewhere?

Dusty. xxx
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07-06-2013, 10:12 PM   #2
nogutsnoglory
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It really breaks my heart when any school or institution rejects someone for being gay. As a person of faith I don't really understand how a religious group can reject anyone who seeks a closer relationship with God. The Church doesn't reject people who have had premarital sex or who have divorced even though they regard those as sins. I know there are many religions and denominations that are very welcoming and accepting and dont regard being gay a sin but I guess the more conservative ones still are struggling with these issues.

As for schools being legally able to bar or kick out students for being gay in America, I believe it depends on the state. Most states don't have LGBT protections and these schools can make their rules under the guise of religious liberty. I believe it gets more complicated when the school receives federal funding in which case they may not be able to do that. I have seen several cases though that have been battled in court with outcomes on both sides, it's definitely not a settled issue.
07-07-2013, 01:07 AM   #3
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I am not a person of faith but won't go into my views on here and how I feel they impact decisions such as these.

Dusty. xxx
07-07-2013, 08:46 AM   #4
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Personally, I consider myself spiritual, not religious. Organized religions seem more intent on pigeon holing us.. delineating 'us' from 'them'.. and profiting.. even profiteering... from it. I firmly believe that any individual, group or organization should have the right to formulate and practice their beliefs... as long as it harms no one. I mean, the ancient art of sacrificing virgins should not make a come back. But for any such group to seek the protection, under law, to impose their beliefs on others... frankly that is just not on.

Personally, I dream of a day when, the world as a whole, will abandon the established religions we currently know, and start/embrace a new one. One that doesn't dwell in the past... worry about who was/wasn't a prophet, who was/wasn't a messiah, or what the 'name' of God truly is. But one that would seek to establish world peace, harmony, and an end to war, the equality of everyone, an end to poverty, famine, and sickness.
It's a dream, perhaps just a pipe dream... but it is a pleasant one. That I could support.

Thing of it is... there are good, decent, sincere people out there, who would rather fight, than switch... because they fail to see that focusing on our differences, rather than on our similarities.. is pointless. I think.. if one looks at the photo.. The Blue Marble.. that it should be obvious... we are humanity first, foremost, and we'd better catch on to that before it is too late. Otherwise, regardless of our personal religious beliefs, we don't have a prayer. Hmm, sorry, this seems to have turned into a rant.
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07-07-2013, 09:14 AM   #5
nogutsnoglory
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I tend to agree with a lot of what you say. I don't really subscribe to any organized religion but do believe in God. I don't like the idea that religious groups often espouse an us versus them mentality. In my opinion you can be a horrible theist or a wonderful atheist. I don't believe in the idea of judging someone else's life journey. We are all here to learn and grow and as long as one is a good person they are good in my book.

I know my parents always taught me to avoid talking about politics and religion. I seem to have forgot that lesson in this post and in life. I love discussing these things as long as its done respectfully and with an open mind.

I think culture is changing so rapidly to be more open minded on things like gay and lesbian people and as such religion is now playing catch up. Many denominations fully embrace gay people with full participation, ordination and marriage. Even those that haven't come that far have made changes in the way they deal with the issue. I don't think that many think being gay is a choice anymore but nonetheless some sadly as evidenced here will kick out a gay identified person. I think this will decrease and become increasingly unacceptable both in the eyes of civil law and the people's perception.
07-07-2013, 01:00 PM   #6
kiny
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All these discussions become meaningless once you get a serious disease.

I can't believe people and schools are busy discussing what a gay person should be allowed to do or not do.

Just let people be happy, if they're gay, or straight, or purple, or orange, just let them live their lives and leave them be. Happiness should not come at a cost, they're just people like everyone else.
07-07-2013, 05:49 PM   #7
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I 'like' to believe in a Creator... I prefer to think we were planted in this beautiful garden rather than we are just some evolved mould that oozed out of the depths eventually. Yes, I know my 'belief' flies in the face of scientific theory... but the science is still just a theory, and if I can draw comfort (and I do) from my harmless little belief, what harm?

And, yes, like others, I was brought up believing that certain subjects were just taboo. I realize now that... tho well intentioned.. is one of the biggest mistakes we subscribe to. I 'believe' that if we, the people of this planet, only learned to talk with one another, not talk AT each other, this world would be a better place. You know, we seem to act like we are fleas on a dog, arguing over who is the better flea... while we do our best to destroy the one dog we have to live on. Perhaps, before it is too late, we will all learn.

You know, one of the few upsides of getting this disease is that it puts things in better perspective. Life is something no longer taken for granted. Another upside was finding tihs site, and.. thru adoption or osmosis, becoming part of a much larger family of man. I have seen people from all over the world, some nationalities that otherwise are known not to tolerate each other.. bound together in unity, comradery, by our common foe. Disease. Hey, you learn to take your positives wherever you can find them in this life.
07-08-2013, 05:37 AM   #8
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You know, one of the few upsides of getting this disease is that it puts things in better perspective. Life is something no longer taken for granted. Another upside was finding tihs site, and.. thru adoption or osmosis, becoming part of a much larger family of man. I have seen people from all over the world, some nationalities that otherwise are known not to tolerate each other.. bound together in unity, comradery, by our common foe. Disease. Hey, you learn to take your positives wherever you can find them in this life.
I don't think Crohn's is that bad. I've had far worse things in my life that put Crohn's in perspective.

As nice as this forum is, I don't think it compares to "real life" families. It's easy to be nice and supportive to people online when you don't have to take any responsibility for them. I expect most members could disappear from this forum without anyone noticing. People might post a few times asking where someone is if one of the more regular posters disappeared, but only a tiny minority know each well enough to concern themselves with each other more than that. Not that there isn't a great benefit in the exchanges of information and experiences that goes on here, and it can help people to hear words of support in a crisis, but I think the focus on "our common foe" means it's easier to ignore all the other parts of us, all the things which would make many of us different from each other.

I'm not quite sure now how this post relates to religion and the thread's topic and I'm very sorry it's so overly negative and cynical. So to get back on topic: banning gay people from anywhere for being gay seems completely unnecessary, but I suppose the justification being used is that it undermines the point of religion if you can change its rules and beliefs (not that most religions don't do that all the time already). But if the religious schools previously/currently banning people for being gay were now forced to accept them, would any gay person ever feel comfortable going there? Why would they want to go somewhere where they know they're only allowed because those in charge have been forced to let them, where they know they really don't want them at all? Laws against homophobic actions such as this are a start, but I'm not sure you can get rid of homophobia through laws - laws can't change people's thoughts, feelings and fears.
07-08-2013, 02:04 PM   #9
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I think people should be able to associate with like kind, so long as they don't receive a penny from the government.

Men only, women only, christian only, etc.

I also believe churches should have to pay taxes, just like everyone else.
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07-08-2013, 04:08 PM   #10
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From a religious point of view, it shouldn't matter if you are gay or not, but how you act. While I don't agree with religions that say homosexuality is a sin, to my knowledge, these same religions prohibit any sexual relations outside of marriage. So a student who is gay, just by being gay, isn't violating the religious tenants.

But why these religions feel the need to be so discriminatory is beyond me. I am fairly observant, and thankfully, my religion believes we are all created in the image of G-d. So every one of us deserves the respect for their life that G-d would give us. I would never want my child to attend a school that says some people, because of the way they were born, are less than whole people. I hope I'm expressing myself well, because I don't know if I'm getting my point across.
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07-08-2013, 06:34 PM   #11
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I'm sure those who are placed in charge (legitimately or otherwise) of various religions are great at finding justification in their teachings, writings, beliefs to justify anything.

I heard once that, be it Christian, Muslim or Jewish, the first five books of their 'bibles' were virtually identical. Seems at some point, there was just one 'belief'. Times change.

I recall that someone once said that if a non believer spoke the name of the prophet, it was grounds for their execution... and that many folks thought that pretty barbaric. But, if one has heard/knows of the tetragrammaton (please excuse me if my spelling is off)... or as some call it.. the name of names... or as others refer to it.. the name of God.. some say yah weh.. (again, spelling??) or Jehovah.. it may come as a surprise to some pious religious folks that the deity many worship consider his/her worshippers to be so low a form of life that to actually speak God's name is an afront punishable by death. So, many folks are praying to an anonomyous deity whose real name they don't know OR if they did.. and spoke it.. he/she would feel justified in striking down the utterer. OK, so I personally just don't see... not logic.. common sense.. in worshiping a 'creator' who is that... vain.. heartless.. cold.. (fill in whatever description you feel that may warrant).

OK, so that is just 3 religions. And, not everything about religion per se is bad. But we've seen... too many things.. in this day and age.. to many sins, to many mistakes, too many crimes... even too many wars.. started based on or magnified over religion or religious differences. We think the Holocaust is ancient history.. or the troubles in Northern Ireland... or Sunni Vs Shiite.. Rwanda.. is there an end to this list? Of course, women can't be ordained... that would come to close to having religious priestesses. It's too pagan... Then ask a Christian when was Christ born... how many would say May or June. When I hear of anyone from an organized religion defending something intolerable to most folks based solely on tradition, teaching, creed, whatever.. it makes me cringe. These same religions have changed their stances, rules, creeds .. whatever so often to their own benefit it is shocking. A child born out of wedlock that died at birth couldn't be buried in hallowed ground... Why, what sin did the child commit? OK, OK, bury the child there, but they can never enter the kingdom of Heaven... Again, same question.. OK, if they can't go to Heaven, do they belong in Hell.. YES! But that isn't right. OK, no not Hell... they get to spend eternity in purgatory.. Sorry... went off on a bit of a rant.

Targeting gays, targeting women, targeting innocent children... the various religions have a very poor record. Some worse than others... for the moment. But the thing is..if they 'practiced' what they preached, you'd think the 1st job at hand would be to clean up their own respective acts. Hmmm, guess I'm still on that rant. I'll go shutup now, OK?
07-12-2013, 07:40 AM   #12
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Im a catholic, but Im not a very good one, cos I totally believe anyone can love anyone they like and everyone else can suck it up or shut up.

Its outrageous what is passing for law down here downunder these days. Did you also see that one about Muslim college will sack teachers if they dont wear the whatever call you the head dress thingy? Why would they employ these people if they didnt want them in the first place? Its all gone to crap down here. Anyone for immigrating anywhere? But where could we go??
07-29-2013, 06:24 PM   #13
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I'm sure those who are placed in charge (legitimately or otherwise) of various religions are great at finding justification in their teachings, writings, beliefs to justify anything.

I heard once that, be it Christian, Muslim or Jewish, the first five books of their 'bibles' were virtually identical. Seems at some point, there was just one 'belief'. Times change.
Actually, practically all religions are virtually identical, and always have been. In reality, practically all are founded on only 2 basic principles (rules or commandments.) Namely to love God above all else, and what is called the "ethics of reciprocity", known in Christianity as "the Golden rule" --to treat others as you yourself would like to be treated. See link: http://www.religioustolerance.org/reciproc.htm

Regarding these 2 directives, in the bible Jesus states "on these 2 commandments, hang all the law, and all the prophets." (Mathew 22:40).

Meaning that these 2 commandments are all you really need to know, because every single word in the bible is based on these 2 principles, and these 2 alone. It is virtually impossible to sin if you adhere to these 2 directives faithfully, because if you do that, all else follows.

My personal problem with organized religions is they often take individual passages out of context and nitpick the details, in order to interpret the meaning to "fit" their own agenda, obscuring, if not completely obliterating the original intent as encompassed in the 2 commandment, upon which absolutely everything in the bible is based upon.

This issue seems to me like yet another good example of "who" is really in those details. (My personal opinion, of course)
07-29-2013, 07:41 PM   #14
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I didn't know about the uniformity of those two commandments... but, duplication seems to be rampant in religion. How about a 'virgin' birth, around the time of the winter solstice.. and a 'human' descendant of the creator. And this persons name????
Krishna... approx 900 years before Jesus.. who, according to the experts, was probably born in May or June, (his birth was changed to the winter solstice sometime in the middle ages... to persuade more pagans to convert.. not for any historical accuracy).

OK, a few other tidbits.. Can anyone name Adam's (as in Garden of Eden) second wife?
The answer... Eve. Adam's first wife was Lilith.. who demanded an recieved a divorce. Yet, Catholicism frowns on divorce... perhaps why information and references to Lilith have disappeared. Anullment... they're OK with that.. as in let's pretend there never was a marriage to begin with. Hypocrasy (sp?)... OK, time to get off my bandwagon.

I, personally, have experienced... I dunno... a 'sense'... a feeling.. of community.. when I attended religious services. I HAVE irreconciable (sp?) issues with organized religions. I think they must first put their own house in order before attempting to.. heal by faith.. their parishioners. I believe ANY religion needs to adopt a tolerance of all others, and all races, creeds, colors, genders... well, the list goes on and on.. AND actively promote it to their parishioners... IF they call themselves... or wish others to call them.. religious.

Just my personal belief. Golden rule. Do unto others... and judge not lest ye be judged.
07-31-2013, 12:30 AM   #15
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Kev,

It may come as a surprise to you, but all the mainstream Christian religions are perfectly aware of the fact that the date Jesus's birth is celebrated was set (changed) to coincide with the Winter Solace, and they've always known that.

Lilith actually is mentioned in the bible in Isaiah 34, but whether or not she was ever human, much less the first wife of Adam, or anything more than a myth, is debatable. There are numerous stories about her, all of which conflict. Lilith appears throughout history, in everything from Dead Sea scrolls and ceramic bowls, to renaissance paintings. Even Michaelangelo painted Lilith. She's hardly a secret.

But no, it wasn't because Catholicism frowns on divorce, as the Old Testament in particular, is full of stories of divorcing or "setting aside" your spouse. King David had a man murdered, just so he could marry his widow. He had lots of wives, along with slaves, concubines. Loved his boyhood friend Jonathan too, and whether their love was strictly platonic, remains highly debatable. The Old Testament even includes a mandate, that if your brother dies, you should marry his widow--so she and the children would not die of starvation.

Ahh, details, details, the devil's in the details. Can't see the forest for all the trees (read: details).

To gain a proper perspective, you need to read the bible from cover to cover, and what you will see, is that it is actually a history book. The Old Testament is the early history of the Jewish people, while the New Testament provides the history, documenting the life and death of Jesus, followed by the history of the lives of the original disciples, and establishment of Christianity.

All those horrible evil actions in the bible? Yeah, actions have consequences and all those horror stories serve as documentation and commentary of the consequences that result from "sin" --defined as failure to follow the 2 primary directives.

Judging others? Yeah, that's also encompassed in the Golden rule, because judging others is not treating them as you yourself would wish to be treated. Same with the other commandments, every single one.

Duplications in other religions? Like God couldn't have designated prophets and inspired history books for other cultures? To teach and guide them as well? Who knows?

Please don't confuse the bible with some of the nonsensical interpretations made up by various organized religions. For example, there's nothing in the bible that prohibits umm, masturbation. That's just a BS interpretation based in a story about a guy who married his brother's widow, but refused to inpregnate her, because if he did, his brother's inheritance would have gone to that child. So he had sex with her, but pulled out and spilt his seed on the ground. His actual sin was selfishness. It had nothing to do with masturbation, but organized religions only use the part where he "spills his seed on the ground" as their basis for contending that masturbation is condemned in the bible.

Same applies to the passages various organized religions use to contend that the bible condemns being gay. If you read what comes before and after those passages, the message that is actually being conveyed is entirely different. The one used most often, Romans 1:27, Paul then goes on on Romans 2:1 to say, "Therefore you have no excuse to judge others, for in condemning others, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgement are doing the very same things." It was actually a lecture warning people not to attend pagen ceremonies where they did alcohol/drugs, because they might wake up and not like what they while did under the influence. It was never intended to be used as justification for condemning and judging people who are gay. In fact, it's the exact opposite.

This is what I mean in saying that many organized religions pull passages and use them out of context to supposedly "prove" biblical support for whatever agenda they happen to desire, and doing so, change the original intent.

Every passage in the bible that supposedly condemns gays is the same. It's a matter of interpretation, most of which is pretty thin and flimsy, at best.

To me, it is a far greater sin to disobey the directive against the Golden rule by judging others, and especially, in doing so, to drive them away from God. I somehow don't think God looks upon that very well.
07-31-2013, 04:17 AM   #16
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Interesting stuff... Some paintings of Lilith (hmmm, she didn't look so fair to me) depict her with scales and talons... as for divorce, yes, it comes up again and again. I thought Lilith was the 1st recorded (eeer, reported) case of a wife demanding/receiving a 'get'.

As for 'God'... guess I had it wrong. Kind of thought it was an abbreviation for 'Good old what's his name'.. ;-)

Duty calls. Off to work. Should I leave with a simple goodbye.. ooops, another one of those abbreviations... God be with ye
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