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Crohn's Disease Forum » Books, Multimedia, Research & News » Study identifies distinct microbiome in Crohn’s intestinal mucosa


08-13-2013, 09:21 PM   #1
nogutsnoglory
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Study identifies distinct microbiome in Crohn’s intestinal mucosa

"A study that evaluated bacterial populations present in the intestinal tissue of patients with Crohn’s and controls provides evidence suggesting there may be "at least two distinct populations of biotypes within the Crohn’s disease spectrum and the existence of a submucosal microbiome in both health and disease," according to the investigators."

Full article: http://www.oncologypractice.com/onco...49a3d3867.html
08-13-2013, 09:57 PM   #2
kiny
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posted it here once:

http://www.crohnsforum.com/showthread.php?t=47914
08-13-2013, 11:19 PM   #3
sir.clausin
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Am I understanding it right when I say that they have never ever looked at what kind of bacteria is present in our mucosa/tissue Before? If yes, then WTF what took them so long.

They say that we with crohns have a much higher load of bacteria, then those who are healthy. Is this due to our disability to Clean bacteria out of or system - macrophage - or?
08-13-2013, 11:31 PM   #4
kiny
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They have looked at deep tissue in the past, Van Kruiningen got his hands on a lot of the resected tissue from patients but he always comes up empty handed.

debate about it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiaxJs_kU-Q

AIEC is more and more recovered and found in tissue.

Tons of money that goes to crohn's disease resarch is spent on researching the indigenous gut flora, so far it has been money down the drain.
08-13-2013, 11:42 PM   #5
sir.clausin
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ok thanks, the video doesn´t work though. So your bet is AIEC huh...I´m going to ask my GI who is a professor about this just to hear what he thinks. I feel that a lot of doctors really don´t know shit.

When discussing one time with a GI, they asked me "What education did you say you have?" I feel hopeless when we know more than them
08-14-2013, 12:16 AM   #6
723crossroads
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I so agree! Mine didn't know about any of the natural treatmenst and doesn't believe they could work. Well, why am I doing better than when I wasn't?
08-14-2013, 12:45 AM   #7
wildbill_52280
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we are just now having the advances in technology to do this type of stuff. microbiome project was to determine what a healthy microbiome is by studying super healthy peoples microbiome. now we can look at unhealthy people and see what the differences are and develop theories and hypothesis based on what we find to know they might be contributing to our health or disease states.
08-14-2013, 12:53 AM   #8
kiny
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This doesn't have anything to do with the gut flora or microbiome project though.

This study looked at transmural tissue in search for E Coli, MAP, salmonella, campylobacter, yersinia, etc

The authors of this study are quite dismissive about the idea that crohn's disease is an immune response against the indigenous flora, which is why they're looking at transmural tissue.
08-14-2013, 01:16 AM   #9
kiny
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from study

08-14-2013, 06:10 AM   #10
sir.clausin
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Here is a question, if you only have inflamation in the illieum, like most crohns people do, does that mean that you could have say leaky gut and h pylori instead of crohns?
08-14-2013, 06:50 AM   #11
rollinstone
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pretty interesting question, do different infective agents (bacteria) cause disease in different areas, I.e colitis as opposed to ileitis
08-14-2013, 07:07 AM   #12
rollinstone
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pretty interesting question, do different infective agents (bacteria) cause disease in different areas, I.e colitis as opposed to ileitis
08-14-2013, 08:26 AM   #13
kiny
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If you're asking if bacteria are specific for certain regions, yes they are.

MAP goes straight for the ileum in ruminants for example. It's their niche.

H Pylori's niche is the stomach.

C Difficile's niche is the colon.

AIEC's niche is the ileum.

Bifidobacteria's niche is the colon.

Lactobasillus niche is the small intestine.

It doesn't mean you can't find them in other places sometimes, but these bacteria have evolved to create a niche in the body they prosper in, and that's where you'll find them.

AIEC for example uses the peyer's patches to invade the ileum, and since they're in the ileum and not in the colon, that's where you'll find AIEC. But that doesn't mean all AIEC will be in the ileum, they have recovered AIEC in the colon too, it's just not their niche, they're happier in the ileum, around the age when peyer's patches are most active.
08-14-2013, 08:41 AM   #14
kiny
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The peyer's patches nicely explain why people get ileal crohn's disease around the age of 12-25 btw, that's when they are most active.
08-14-2013, 09:28 AM   #15
sir.clausin
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Then I better get rid of H.Pylori fast, I cant imagine that they are doing any good for my crohn.

I got two antibiotics and one acid blocker. Heard so many stories to go "el natural" instead with herbs, since the antibiotics will certainly screw with my micro biome even more...gaah all these decisions.
08-14-2013, 12:36 PM   #16
wildbill_52280
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Here is a question, if you only have inflamation in the illieum, like most crohns people do, does that mean that you could have say leaky gut and h pylori instead of crohns?
leaky gut is a phenomenon that possibly all IBD patients share. it just means molecules that would otherwise have been digested or kept out of the human body (like whole protiens or fibers or even bacteria), seep in through the spaces between epethilial cells, which are compromised in IBD. i believe these are called tight junction protiens, they are like the glue that holds epithelial cells together very tightly to create a highly selective barrier. highly selective meaning, they body can determine what will be absorbed and what will be kept outside of the body. like we need amino acids minerals vitamins etc, body usually lets these through and keeps out things like bacteria or larger particles that have been digested. losing this selectivity is called leaky gut, the immune system will then have to deal with these larger molecules and thats what some of the "inflammation" is responsible for. inflammation is a very abstract term, its almost a little vague and represents a multitude of events pertaining to immunity, as far as i know.


there are some pathogens that specifically colonize the ileal tissue for whatever reason. a combination of dysbiosis and a pathogen may define crohns disease. where different pathogens may characterize UC, that prefer the colon only over the ileum. and the people that change from uc then to crohn's may simply acquire these pathogens somewhere over the course of the disease and may now be classified as mixed IBD. of course we dont know all this absoluty for sure yet, tons of evidence to support it though.
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