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Crohn's Disease Forum » Books, Multimedia, Research & News » MAP Vaccine Ready for Human Trials - Could be Used for Crohn's


 
02-19-2014, 09:34 AM   #91
Igor_Passau
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so what?
02-19-2014, 11:26 AM   #92
JMC
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The interest in MAP is justified I feel, because:
A: it's in the human food chain
B: it causes disease in many animals, including non-human primates
C: it's a mycobacteria and almost all mycobacteria cause disease
One question that I have not been able to find an answer to. How was the relationship between MAP and Johne's disease established in cattle and other animals and why is it apparently more difficult to establish the relationship between MAP and Crohns (if there is one) in humans?
02-20-2014, 12:19 PM   #93
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One question that I have not been able to find an answer to. How was the relationship between MAP and Johne's disease established in cattle and other animals and why is it apparently more difficult to establish the relationship between MAP and Crohns (if there is one) in humans?
In cattle it affects the whole herd, the cow's feces is filled with MAP, when calves are born then tend to come into contact with feces, which is how they keep reinfecting each other. It is easy to find a pattern in a herd.

The reason farmers don't like MAP, is not because it's a potential human health threat, it wipes out their herd.

You're also only looking for one species in cows, bovine MAP. What MAP's role is in humans isn't clear, there is a relationship between E Coli and MAP too and while MAP in humans is similar to bovine MAP, it's harder to test humans, you can't test soil, you might have a disseminated bacteria, not readily found in feces like in cows, etc.

It's also a money issue, cows cost money, farmers don't want to lose their cow, there are a ton of labs that can test cows for MAP....humans are just well...humans. One more person with crohn's disease or less, doesn't bother the farmer's industry.

The farmer's industry has been incredibly unsympathetic to people with crohn's disese, they know full well there is a chance MAP is involved in crohn's disesase, and they do everything they can to keep a lid on it.
02-20-2014, 06:21 PM   #94
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the good news is that Dr Hermon-Taylor has developed a clinical diagnostic test that can test people for MAP. He just needs funding. You can pledge and donate if you google his daughters justgiving webpage called 'run for crohns' …she is a doctor herself and she is running the London Marathon on April 13th to raise money for the MAP diagnostic test.
__________________
diagnosed 1994 aged 18. 3 surgeries. Remicade is my drug.

I believe this could cure crohns disease.

-Dr John Hermon -Taylor is trying to cure Crohn's disease.
02-21-2014, 03:26 AM   #95
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I can't understand why large drug companies aren't snapping this up. Makes me think the research or vaccine or something is flawed.


02-21-2014, 04:20 AM   #96
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It might have something to do with the fact that if it works, it will cure Crohn's disease. It is two vaccines only-not a lifelong treatment that you have to keep taking in order to be well (such as Remicade, Humira, etc.) So how much profit can be made from two injections per person with Crohn's? I would imagine drug companies may consider it is not worth the gamble and the expense of the trials. Scientists and researchers are interested in what works, drug companies are interested in how many units of a particular drug they can sell (and please excuse my cynicism)
02-21-2014, 09:27 AM   #97
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Our family made a donation to Dr. Hermon-Taylor. We feel his work deserves funding to completion and has been denied funding due to pressure from the beef, milk, and pharmaceutical industries.
02-21-2014, 11:59 AM   #98
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We feel his work deserves funding to completion and has been denied funding due to pressure from the beef, milk, and pharmaceutical industries.
Is there really any proof of that?
02-21-2014, 12:03 PM   #99
JMC
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It might have something to do with the fact that if it works, it will cure Crohn's disease. It is two vaccines only-not a lifelong treatment that you have to keep taking in order to be well (such as Remicade, Humira, etc.) So how much profit can be made from two injections per person with Crohn's? I would imagine drug companies may consider it is not worth the gamble and the expense of the trials. Scientists and researchers are interested in what works, drug companies are interested in how many units of a particular drug they can sell (and please excuse my cynicism)
If that is an accurate view of how drug companies really operate (and I cannot comment as I do not have any direct experience) then there clearly is a huge need for crowd sourced funding where the driving force is improving people's health, not profits.
02-21-2014, 12:15 PM   #100
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I can't understand why large drug companies aren't snapping this up. Makes me think the research or vaccine or something is flawed.
It's not the views of the drug companies that make me question whether this research is flawed but the majority of gastroenterologists who do not think it is correct. Obviously it is quite possible with significant breakthroughs for there to be a lone voice standing against the majority. I really do hope Prof Hermon-Taylor is correct mostly because I do not see any other theory or cure being proposed that will come to fruition in the next few years.

I asked Prof Hermon-Taylor a few direct questions:
  • Why is there scepticism in the medical profession that MAP is the cause of Crohns?
  • And why have your requests for funding been rejected?

Here are his answers:
1. Why the scepticism ?
A mixture of reasons from 'there always is'....to the main problem (to date) of there not being a simple
clinical test for MAP in humans. Existing tests are complex and depend critically on the methods used to extract MAP DNA.
If they are not done correctly you get a false negative, conflicting data, controversy and confusion.
Failure to understand the complexity of MAP and how it so often does the opposite of what would be expected.

2. Peer review.....'opinion leaders' who are unaware of the strength of the positive evidence from multiple sources.

Even so we got BBSRC support after nearly a year's scrutiny, for a 3 year trial of the vaccine in cattle finishing in spring 2013..
The vaccine gave stunning results with no side effects....clearing MAP from blood, abolish faecal shedding, cleaned up the gut....
If it does the same in CD (highly likely) it will turn it on its head. The vaccine would not exist but for the Crohn's community.
02-21-2014, 03:19 PM   #101
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This broke my heart (from Run for Crohns website):

...

Where do I come in?...

This research is close to my heart for another reason; it is the culmination of the life's work of my father, Professor John Hermon-Taylor, a Professor of Surgery, Molecular Scientist and internationally renowned Crohn's Disease expert. My father has worked full-time UNPAID since his 'retirement' 11 years ago to develop this vaccine. He has quietly, resolutely pursued this goal despite the constant threat of research funds running out, despite opposition to his work from political enemies and despite cancer and heart disease.

And not for money or for personal glory but for an unspoken promise -to every Crohn’s patient he has cared for and to individuals from across the world suffering with Crohn's who contact him for help -that he will make this happen for THEM. They are willing him to succeed for their sakes.

Sadly, MAP research is not supported by the government or major Crohn's charities. I cannot understand why; 30 years of evidence just cannot be ignored. True, until we have a trial in humans, we will not know if the Vaccine will work as well as it promises. But who in their right mind would not want that question answered?!

As a doctor and as a daughter, I am not willing to stand by and let something with so much promise, which could help so many people, fall by the wayside.

...
02-21-2014, 03:58 PM   #102
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Sadly, MAP research is not supported by the government or major Crohn's charities.
This can sound very emotive, but let's be specific about this and rather than get upset about it take some action...
  • Which governments have been asked to fund it and refused and why? We need the name of the minister or department which made the decision so we can lobby.
  • What are the main Crohn's charities which provide research funding? Which ones have refused and what reason was given. Again, we need to get the names of the people who made the decision and lobby them.
02-21-2014, 05:09 PM   #103
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Lets not forget, all the gastros laughed off Dr Barry Marshall and Dr Robin Warren when they proposed that stomach ulcers were caused by a bacteria (Helicobacter pylori). I believe one of the doctors actually infected himself, got diagnosed with a stomach ulcer and cured himself before the skeptics would believe him.

The gastros dont want to accept Crohns could be caused by a pathogen.
02-23-2014, 05:25 PM   #104
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This broke my heart (from Run for Crohns website):

...

Where do I come in?...

This research is close to my heart for another reason; it is the culmination of the life's work of my father, Professor John Hermon-Taylor, a Professor of Surgery, Molecular Scientist and internationally renowned Crohn's Disease expert. My father has worked full-time UNPAID since his 'retirement' 11 years ago to develop this vaccine. He has quietly, resolutely pursued this goal despite the constant threat of research funds running out, despite opposition to his work from political enemies and despite cancer and heart disease.

And not for money or for personal glory but for an unspoken promise -to every Crohn’s patient he has cared for and to individuals from across the world suffering with Crohn's who contact him for help -that he will make this happen for THEM. They are willing him to succeed for their sakes.

Sadly, MAP research is not supported by the government or major Crohn's charities. I cannot understand why; 30 years of evidence just cannot be ignored. True, until we have a trial in humans, we will not know if the Vaccine will work as well as it promises. But who in their right mind would not want that question answered?!

As a doctor and as a daughter, I am not willing to stand by and let something with so much promise, which could help so many people, fall by the wayside.

...
Can someone post an authentic link to make donations to??
02-23-2014, 05:30 PM   #105
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Can someone post an authentic link to make donations to??
It's against forum rules for us to post links to sites that ask for money (Which is frustrating since that happens to be the best place to get info about the vaccine as well..).

To find it just search 'amy hermon taylor run for crohns just giving' and it'll surely come up as one of the first few pages. It's a justgiving.com site.
02-23-2014, 05:33 PM   #106
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It's against forum rules for us to post links to sites that ask for money (Which is frustrating since that happens to be the best place to get info about the vaccine as well..).

To find it just search 'amy hermon taylor run for crohns just giving' and it'll surely come up as one of the first few pages. It's a justgiving.com site.
Ok I understand, but I'm down to a charity run etc.
02-23-2014, 05:41 PM   #107
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Ok I understand, but I'm down to a charity run etc.
Yeah, it was originally set up as amy running to get donations but now it's the best place to send donations. (Confirmed by amy on facebook). I realise it's confusing, I believe they're in the process of setting something more clear up.
02-24-2014, 01:14 AM   #108
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they are….a new website, the whole bit.
paypal etc.
coming soon!
02-27-2014, 04:38 PM   #109
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I think this is a very worthy movement in Crohns….

Last edited by Jennifer; 03-27-2014 at 02:53 PM. Reason: Findraising link removed. Against forum rules.
02-28-2014, 10:35 PM   #110
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Lets not forget, all the gastros laughed off Dr Barry Marshall and Dr Robin Warren when they proposed that stomach ulcers were caused by a bacteria (Helicobacter pylori). I believe one of the doctors actually infected himself, got diagnosed with a stomach ulcer and cured himself before the skeptics would believe him.

The gastros dont want to accept Crohns could be caused by a pathogen.
I think they genuinely don't believe it because in the past (before Prof JHT) there wasn't enough evidence for it, so they need kind of need an extra push!
Also, interestingly, those doctors who made the discovery about helicobacter pylori went on to win the nobel prize for medicine! I don't know about anybody else, but I think if Prof JHT's vaccine works he should be in line for it!
03-01-2014, 09:23 AM   #111
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I completely agree.

My husband and I are new to the world of Crohn's because our teenaged daughter was only diagnosed in December. My husband is a professional researcher and has focused most of his attention on IBD since that time. We are shocked and astonished to find that so little can be done for people with Crohn's, that the number of cases has skyrocketed over the past few decades, and that promising treatments are not pursued because they would not result in gigantic profits for pharmaceutical companies.

Dr. Crohn himself suspected the MAP bacterium was the cause of the disease that now bears his name. At that time it was not possible to test for the bacterium but modern medical techniques have changed that. Cattle known to be infected with MAP have intestines that look just like those of humans with Crohn's, and nothing else looks like it. MAP is definitely present in a high percentage of dairy cows. It is well established that animal infections can be transmitted to humans. It has been proved that MAP can survive milk pasteurization. How can we NOT support Dr. Hermon-Taylor's work to its completion?

I'm going to post that on the Facebook page right now. We already made a financial contribution to Dr. H-T's project. I urge you to help spread the word.
03-01-2014, 12:11 PM   #112
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there are reasonable arguments against the MAP theory too, one is detection rates, second is the Australian antibiotics trial that did not keep ppl in remission, you can't ignore these arguments I feel, a lot of studies have found MAP by PCR in people with CD, A LOT did not

this is a good rebuttal to those type of arguments:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoVpiFKwa9A

you can go back and forth like this for years while ppl suffer, yes or no, ppl deserve an answer

ppl have been arguing if MAP is involved in crohn's disease for over a century now

.

like that video also shows and why i strongly disagreed with Xiafo, is the argument that use of immunosuppressants is an indication that an infection isn't involved, iimmunosuppressants are often used for infections, how weird it might seem at first, often times stopping the inflammation is far more important that controling the infeciton, it's not a reasonable argument, imuran, steroids, TNF-alpha blockers, they have all been used for infections, in fact many immunosuppressants were desinged to treat infections

when the immune system is not capable of removing the offending antigen, the inflammation becomes chronic, and the inflammation is often very destructive, which is why you want to both control the inflammation and the infection at the same time


all this results in back and forth arguments, people who refuse to look at UC and Crohn's disease as seperate diseases,some GI who should be impartial giving opinions on mycobacteria they know nothing about, the dairy industry who stands to lose millions the more this issue is talked about, etc, I hope we have an answer soon


I also want GI to stay out of these arguments. They are not immunologists or infection specialists, it only muddies the water and sets people with crohn's disease back instead of helping them.

Last edited by kiny; 03-01-2014 at 12:53 PM.
03-01-2014, 02:36 PM   #113
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there are reasonable arguments against the MAP theory too, one is detection rates, second is the Australian antibiotics trial that did not keep ppl in remission, you can't ignore these arguments I feel, a lot of studies have found MAP by PCR in people with CD, A LOT did not
.
Out of curiosity... What if MAP is one of many different irritants tgat initiate what we know as Crohns disease? What I'm trying to get at is that many different intestinal diseases show crohns like symptoms like intestinal tb. Could it be possible that MAP triggers Crohn's symptoms while AIEC causes it for others and etc? I wondering if anti MAP treatment may be effective for a subset of Crohns patients.
03-01-2014, 03:31 PM   #114
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That's perfectly plausible.

We all know that certain treatments work better for some people than for others. It seems to me that Crohn's is quite possibly an intestinal condition, rather than a disease that comes from only one source. Like a rash you might have on your hand. Your rash could be from poison ivy, or another skin irritant, or from getting way too much sun, or a whole lot of mosquito bites, or a reaction to a medicine you took, or excema, or a bunch of other things. You can sooth the rash in a variety of ways, but none of that soothing will cure the rash and keep it from coming back.

Even if a MAP vaccine would be a cure for only 20% of IBD cases, it would be well worth the development expense. Think of the cost of all those intestinal surgeries, scopes, scans, and drugs like Remicade. Think of the people who can't hold a job because they keep getting sick. Think of all the pain and suffering.

I can't figure out why this Vaccine hasn't been funded to completion.
03-01-2014, 04:32 PM   #115
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Ibligh, welcome to the land of the believers in MAP theory.
I hope you have liked the facebook page….see the link higher up on this page, from me..


If the vaccine works it will prove irrefutably that MAP causes Crohn's... and that would lead to some very awkward questions being asked about why, despite earlier warnings, the public had continued to be exposed to a disease-causing pathogen in the food-chain. Another milk scandal wouldn’t look good for the dairy industry. But then this is very short-sighted as it wouldn’t end in the feared apocalyptic scenario of mass culling etc because the vaccine presents the solution to that very problem; vaccinate diseased animals to prevent MAP entering the food chain.


The best thing we can do is rally the believers into an army…i think that facebook page is a good way to do it….so, go join and lets all get behind his daugher Amy who is running the London marathon April 13th, raising money for the MAP diagnostic.
03-01-2014, 04:39 PM   #116
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posting this again, because I believe it is the best way for everyone on this thread to stay tuned to what Dr Hermon Taylor is doing….the page is run by his daughter (also a doctor) and I think we should all be sharing it with our 'facebook friends'...

Last edited by Jennifer; 03-27-2014 at 02:54 PM. Reason: Findraising link removed. Against forum rules.
03-01-2014, 04:58 PM   #117
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Happy poo poo: your latest link is broken...
03-01-2014, 05:10 PM   #118
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I totally agree with you Ibligh and others, we should all spread the word!

One way would be that we advertise the facebook site and this thread in the various discussion forums, also outside English speaking forums. I have done it already in two other, non-English, IBD related discussions forums and I plan to look for new forums as well. We should make people understand that even a small donation counts. There are millions of IBDers around the world so collecting £100,000 and even more shouldn't be impossible!

Last edited by Malgrave; 03-02-2014 at 01:56 PM.
03-01-2014, 05:35 PM   #119
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right on Malgrave!
I am of the same mindset and doing everything I can with my 'reach' to get the news into the right hands…there are countless facebook pages devoted to crohns, crohns forums, associations, websites, blogs - i am pestering as many as I can!
go hard!

this was good watching too. Thanks IBLIGH.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2a7xVgzbA4Y

Try that facebook link again, i think it works now???
03-01-2014, 05:49 PM   #120
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google 'run for crohns just giving' to go to the page where you can support + donate to this inspiring cause. I would put the weblink on here but apparently that is not allowed on this forum.
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