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Crohn's Disease Forum » Books, Multimedia, Research & News » MAP Vaccine Ready for Human Trials - Could be Used for Crohn's


 
05-31-2014, 02:44 PM   #241
Crohn2357
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Don't know much about it. Will read up on it if there is more info about it. Kind of hard to find info on what they are donig exactly. Some other ppl on the forum know more about it I think.
Yes, there aren't detailed info about it.
05-31-2014, 02:50 PM   #242
WelshGuy
 
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Oral absorption? Not sure. But VDR polymorphism is linked to crohn's disease. It's a Vitamin D receptor.
Well i read somewhere Crohns lowers your ability to absorb Vitamin D from diet. If true this would simply mean Vit D is low in most patients, but also the RDA for Vit D would need to be higher for them to get adequate levels.

I mean it could be possible that if you do manage to maintain sufficient level your Crohns could go completely after a long enough time of trying it. But I currently cannot find any trials that tested whether a large intake of Vit D can reverse it.

If it lowers the symptoms, do colonoscopies etc show lowering of inflammation and other visual symptoms normally seen in CD patients ? Or are patients simply being more tolerant to the pain etc?
05-31-2014, 02:56 PM   #243
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They used CDAI scores in a number of studies. CDAI isn't as reliable as a Rutgeert's score with colonoscopy but there are enough studies on Vitamin D and enough studies on it's effects on macrophage function that I would argue it's good to get your vitamin D checked from time to time.

Many people on the forum get their vitamin D checked and supplement orally when needed, going in the sun isn't a good idea if you're on things like thiopurine, they know this from transplant patients.
05-31-2014, 03:04 PM   #244
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Kiny, do you have any information, thoughts about autologus mesenchymal stem cell therapy as a potential treatment for Crohn's disease? And what do you think about Plasmapheresis- again as a treatment of Crohn's disease?
05-31-2014, 03:08 PM   #245
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So is it likely that low Vit D could allow the invasion into the wall of the gut?

If so if we find a way to kill those bacteria that managed to invade, then simply keeping high levels of Vit D would prevent future invasion to the gut wall.

So a vaccine is only going to stop your current infection... but holds no ability of stopping another one in future, that would be down to diet.
05-31-2014, 03:20 PM   #246
kiny
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So is it likely that low Vit D could allow the invasion into the wall of the gut?

If so if we find a way to kill those bacteria that managed to invade, then simply keeping high levels of Vit D would prevent future invasion to the gut wall.

So a vaccine is only going to stop your current infection... but holds no ability of stopping another one in future, that would be down to diet.
Vitamin D would help the innate immune system control a pathogen, it has effects on innate immune cells like macrophages and dendritic cells, and some effects on lymphocytes, the main benefit for CD patiens is the effects Vitamin D could have on autophagy.

For pathogens like MAP and AIEC, they already reside in tissue, they don't need to penetrate the gut wall or infiltrate M Cells, they're there, in tissue, they manage to survive by exploiting macrophages and the immune system. I really doubt CD would revolve around reinfection.

What vitamin D would do is help us control and kill those bacteria more efficiently. How much vitamin D helps I'm not sure, many of the studies in animals are not possible in humans, they have such high vitamin D levels that it causes hypercalcemia.
05-31-2014, 03:20 PM   #247
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Kiny, do you have any information, thoughts about autologus mesenchymal stem cell therapy as a potential treatment for Crohn's disease? And what do you think about Plasmapheresis- again as a treatment of Crohn's disease?
Don't know anything about that sorry.
05-31-2014, 03:23 PM   #248
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Vitamin D would help the innate immune system control a pathogen, it has effects on innate immune cells like macrophages and dendritic cells, and some effects on lymphocytes, the main benefit for CD patiens is the effects Vitamin D could have on autophagy.

For pathogens like MAP and AIEC, they already reside in tissue, they don't need to penetrate the gut wall or infiltrate M Cells, they're there, in tissue, they manage to survive by exploiting macrophages and the immune system.

What vitamin D would do is help us control and kill those bacteria more efficiently. How much vitamin D helps I'm not sure, many of the studies in animals are not possible in humans, they have such high vitamin D levels that it causes hypercalcemia.

What about a direct high dosage of Vit D to the area affected by CD? And if it seems true that Vit D helps kill it off , why is the medical world not just focussing on giving high Vit D supplements as a mandatory medication along side the pain killers etc.

A vaccine almost seems unnecessary if vitamin D is the main solution.
05-31-2014, 03:28 PM   #249
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if vitamin D is the main solution.
vitamin D might help a little bit, it's not a replacement for medication, I agree that doctors should check vitamin D status of CD patients more though
05-31-2014, 03:48 PM   #250
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vitamin D might help a little bit, it's not a replacement for medication, I agree that doctors should check vitamin D status of CD patients more though
But if it helps at all, then there must be a property of Vit D that gives us that ability to fight the disease, perhaps if we can find that property and have that in a medication that could work without the need of excessive Vit D consumption.

As for simply killing off MAP with a vaccine, does that really solve the problem of CD patients being unable to fight it off naturally that non CD people seem to manage....
05-31-2014, 06:51 PM   #251
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[I]Quote: "Kiny, do you have any information, thoughts about autologus mesenchymal stem cell therapy as a potential treatment for Crohn's disease?"


This article explains the recent work with MSCs and Crohn's. I spoke to Professor Forbes late last year as a family member was considering this treatment-it turned out they weren't eligible, but nonetheless, the future potential of this treatment is huge.

http://lifescientist.com.au/content/...rial-160510901
05-31-2014, 11:34 PM   #252
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[I]Quote: "Kiny, do you have any information, thoughts about autologus mesenchymal stem cell therapy as a potential treatment for Crohn's disease?"


This article explains the recent work with MSCs and Crohn's. I spoke to Professor Forbes late last year as a family member was considering this treatment-it turned out they weren't eligible, but nonetheless, the future potential of this treatment is huge.

http://lifescientist.com.au/content/...rial-160510901
Thank you.
06-01-2014, 12:44 AM   #253
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Don't know much about it. Will read up on it if there is more info about it. Kind of hard to find info on what they are donig exactly. Some other ppl on the forum know more about it I think.
From what I understand, the SSI vaccine works by injecting a dead strain of e-coli bacteria under the skin, each time this is done it stimulates the body to reproduce macrophages and clear out the old faulty ones. Could be wrong about that but that's what I remember reading. Trevor and a few other users on here are doing the trial at the moment, they've kindly updated as they go along, don't have the link coz im on my phone but from what I can tell the ones on the drug are seeing some good results.
06-01-2014, 01:14 AM   #254
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Yes, I think you're right Joshuaaa.
This link is from the Qu Biologics website and explains the mechanism of SSI vaccines:

http://www.qubiologics.com/technology/how-it-works/
06-01-2014, 02:04 AM   #255
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@WelshGuy: Sorry, let me refrase myself, off course Johns MAP-vaccine is the best upcoming treatment and hopefully cure. Qu biologics SSIS is already in use (trial) so I was thinking on which medication is available/in use as of now.

Interesting times!
06-01-2014, 02:21 AM   #256
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Joshuaaa: Shot you an PM
06-03-2014, 07:25 PM   #257
kiny
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As for simply killing off MAP with a vaccine, does that really solve the problem of CD patients being unable to fight it off naturally that non CD people seem to manage....

If MAP is behind the inflammation, yes, if you removed MAP it would cure the patient. The genetic predisposition would still be there but the patient would be cured, people who are cured of leprosy or TB are also cured once you remove the pathogen, even though many still have a predisposition to it. For all intents and purposes, they are cured.

But I am apprehensive about this theory, especially about the numbers being thrown around that 90% of people with CD harbour MAP.

I was tested for MAP and it was negative, I know a few people who were tested and they were also negative for MAP. I was there when they did the culture readings which for MAP are done every X months since it grows so slowly, MAP is extremely slow dividing. By then the DNA test had already been negative, and the culture ended up negative too and after a year the test was stopped.

This has happened in studies too, whole groups of samples that all tested negative in tests.

In none of the 35 people with crohn's disease was MAP detected, and in all of the Johne's disease samples was MAP detected: http://www.clinmedres.org/content/1/3/217.full.pdf

Why do some studies detect MAP and why do some don't. Why do some studies have 21 out of 30 CD positive for MAP and why are there 35 CD people negative for MAP in another study.

Are there different groups of patients, or are people just getting into contact with MAP by the environment and do people with CD simply need more time to clear MAP.

I said it in another post, of all the organisms that can infect macrophages, AIEC has a much better track record than MAP in tests. The Australian trial that failed to show any positive effect after long term usage of anti-MAP antibiotics warned clinicians to consider that treating a patient for a MAP infection might create resistance for other bacteria.

I don't know if MAP is involved at all, I do think that for us patients it is important that it is looked into.
06-03-2014, 11:28 PM   #258
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Why do some studies detect MAP and why do some don't. Why do some studies have 21 out of 30 CD positive for MAP and why are there 35 CD people negative for MAP in another study.

Are there different groups of patients, or are people just getting into contact with MAP by the environment and do people with CD simply need more time to clear MAP.
The short answer to your question Kiny, is that the professor John Hermon-Talor, who is the most experienced in MAP, have developed a new special technique in order to find MAP in people.It seems that the "other" tests being used in the world is highly unreliable, I canīt remember the details but you would need to follow Johns step to step instructions to get correct results. You can read much more here https://www.facebook.com/crohnsmapvaccine

Like you mention, the bug grows really slowly and is extremely tiny, that and other factors make it hard to detect. But what John and his team do is they will take an ultra thin slice from the tissue and test for MAP using an in-situ hybridisation technique (John has developed this technique for MAP testing and it is cutting edge -hence not done anywhere else in the world).

Cheers!
06-06-2014, 04:21 PM   #259
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It looks like BBC already covered the idea of MAP specifically John's research:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3130173.stm

Perhaps if someone can inform BBC of the fact they already covered the news of it, and inform them that great strides are made and all that stops it now is funding they might update the article.

Also if enough people click the link it'll trend on there "most popular" panel.
06-09-2014, 07:49 AM   #260
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Individual Crohn's MAP vaccine fundraising campaigns about to start:
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06-12-2014, 02:24 AM   #261
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I believe Prof Hunter's assertion that MAP causes Crohns and here is why...
About 1 1/2 years ago I gave my daughter live Kefir with pasteurized milk. She took that probiotic concoction for 3 days. On day 4 she had a 104 degree fever and explosive diarrhea. Two months later she had a colonoscopy and diagnosed with Crohns. I always felt that the kefir milk concoction was the cause but blamed it on the kefir not the milk (now I know better). I took my daughter recently to an infectious disease doctor and her stool sample came back positive for mycobacterium avium complex. MAP falls under mycobacterium avium complex. She is going to have a colonoscopy soon and tissue samples will be taken to see if MAC is present. It was after this stool sample came back that I read about prof hunter and the relationship between MAP, milk and Crohns. I believe the milk infected with MAP caused my daughters crohns. If my daughter has both crohns and mycobacteria avium do you treat the crohns or the mycobacteria? In crohns you suppress the immune system but with Mycobacterium avium suppressing the immune system or giving anti TNF alpha medication might not be such a good thing according to research articles I've read. However after the kefir milk, she was having fevers and explosive diarrhea for about 5 months and was put on flagyl, an elemental diet for a few weeks and 6mp, an immunosuppressant. Anyway now she is only on pentasa because her WBC count was very low. I guess you could say her crohns is in remission but what if it flares again? That's why the colonoscopy to see if it's in the tissues. Do you treat the crohns symptoms or the mycobacteria? But there is no doubt in my mind that it was the milk. The milk caused her Crohns.
06-12-2014, 06:54 AM   #262
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I have read that MAP grows very very slowly, which is part of the reason it is so hard to kill. Given that, it would be surprising that she could have contracted the MAP infection that quickly, but I agree that for most people milk would be the source of MAP contamination. It has been well established that MAP can survive pasteurization and even ultrapasteurization according to one Mexican study I read.

My daughter, too, was diagnosed with Crohn's about 2 months after having an unexplained illness with fever. We suspect that unknown infection was the trigger. We have not been able to get her tested for MAP (where did you get that done, Maile?). We did make a large contribution to the MAP vaccine project, which will include promotion of the MAP test that Dr. Hermon-Taylor has developed. MAP is not our highest priority now because she is among the lucky ones for whom the Specific Carbohydrate Diet has worked astonishingly well, but we would like to get our daughter tested for MAP and given the vaccine ASAP if appropriate.
06-12-2014, 06:56 AM   #263
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Maile

I am suspicious of dairy being a trigger for my daughter's crohn's as well. Just letting you know that you have company.
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06-12-2014, 12:38 PM   #264
maile
 
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Hi ibligh,
To answer your question, it was just a mycobacterium culture test of the stool and it was ordered by an infectious disease doctor. I think any doctor can order it. It came back "mycobacterium avium complex identified by DNA hybridization." It didn't say MAP but MAP is part of MAC and since milk caused her infection, I believe it was MAP. The kefir milk was prepared with live kefir grains added to pasteurized milk. The mixture was then placed on the kitchen counter to ferment for 24 hours. After doing this for 3 days, she got a fever, explosive diarrhea and so forth. Anyway now she seems to be fine with one solid BM a day. Her calprotectin was a little under 300 though so there is probably still some inflammation.
Anyway hope that answers your question.
06-12-2014, 01:15 PM   #265
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MAP grows very slowly, it is likely to take several years between exposure and illness appearing.

06-12-2014, 04:00 PM   #266
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I have also heard, like JMC said, that it is likely to take several years between exposure and illness appearing. But what explains the fact that very little children fall ill too? My son was diagnosed at the age of two. Last summer his biopsies showed mycobacterium avium complex (he was almost six then). It was suspected because he has so many granulomas, which is also often a sign of a mycobacterium infection. He had granulomas already at the age of three, one year after the diagnosis.
Btw. His GI told us that they ALLWAYS suspect a mycobacteria cause when a young child has granulomas. Interesting!
06-12-2014, 07:57 PM   #267
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That's VERY interesting, Malgrave. I see you are in Belgium -- it seems that the rest of the world is paying more attention to MAP than the United States. This is the first we have heard of the granuloma/child/MAP connection that your doctor mentioned.

Maile, what country are you in? (I love it that this board is so international.)

It's astounding that they are actually testing for MAP. What is the proposed treatment for the MAP infection?
06-12-2014, 11:13 PM   #268
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His main GI is in the leading IBD hospital of the German speaking world. In Belgium they suspected in the beginning Chronic granulomatous disease because of those granulomas. The test was negative though. If I remember correctly this disease is one of the primary immune deficiencies and in it a person is vulnerable for mycobacterium infection. For me there is a link!

After the mycobacterium finding last year he was put on anti-tuberculosis treatment which happened to be the same as anti-MAP treatment based on two antibiotics.

This is extremely interesting article on the link between granulomas and many diseases:

http://journal.frontiersin.org/Journ...013.00120/full
06-12-2014, 11:53 PM   #269
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Ibligh, we're from California.
Malgrave, did those anti MAP antibiotics help?
06-13-2014, 12:31 AM   #270
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Yes they helped even though he was on them only for two months. Colonoscopy showed only scars. After stopping the antibiotics, things started to get worse again. Two weeks ago the colonoscopy showed a lot of granulomata in stomach and small intestine. The antibiotics were restarted immediately.
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