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02-05-2012, 03:34 AM   #1
A1Aussie
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HIV/AIDS link to Crohn's

Hi all,

I heard a doctor on the tv afew days age refer to immune diseases as the pre-curser to the eventual diagnosis of H.I.V.+ i have been diagnosed with Crohns and was told i most probably had it from a young age 10-13. Im now 44 and was quite blown away to have an immune disease (Crohns) even mentioned in the same sentance as HIV+ and that they could possibly be linked. Has any one heard of discussion in this manor. i have tried to sourse the programe thet had this thread on it but to no success. Any input or comment would be greatly apprieciated.

Cheers A1Aussie
02-05-2012, 04:16 AM   #2
Rebecca85
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Well HiV is immunodeficiency, and autoimmune disease seem to be an over active immune system, so not sure how that works?

My guess is either a) he was a crackpot doctor pushing his own theories so that he could then push his own 'cure' or 'treatment' or b) he didn't mean autoimmune disease like Crohn's, he meant immune deficiency diseases ie those that aren't often seen except in immune compromised people- things like Kaposi's sarcoma.
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02-05-2012, 04:24 AM   #3
Rebecca85
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I did a bit of research and found this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/12848988/ It basically says that people infected with HIV may develop autoimmune disease in the fourth stage of infection (first stage is actual infection, second stage is where HIV lies dormant, third stage is immune deficiency, fourth stage is a resurgeonce of the immune system).

However, that does not mean that all patients with HIV will develop auto immune diseases. Nor does it mean that all people with auto immune disease will be HIV+.

By precursor to diagnosis, I am guessing that this is the first sign that something is not right, so patients seek help during which time investigations are done and it is discovered that they are HIV+
01-04-2013, 04:09 PM   #4
Markanth
 
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Hi. Just found this forum and interested in the link with HIV and Crohn's.
Well i have both, interestingly i was told there was no link by a consultant,
What a foolish man, the proof has been in the pudding (or lack of it,for two years).
I suffered for a whole two years, before undergoing surgery to remove my jejeunum.
Simply the immune symptom suppression in my case,caused the twisting of my bowel.
Ignorance of the medical staff allowed a prolonged period of my diagnosis.
Just an after thought please be wary of prednisolone.
Thanks for reading
01-04-2013, 05:04 PM   #5
Ihurt
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I do not think there is a link between AIDS and Crohns disease. I mean they really do not know what causes crohns even, it only a guess. I think the cause can be different in each person. Also their theory is that crohns is caused by an over-active immune system while AIDS is an attack on the immune system, it actually destroys the immune system. Two different things entirely.
01-06-2013, 09:13 PM   #6
tots
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I have had Crohns as long as I can remember . I am 49- I don't believe one leads to the other at all . There are a lot of things people get and they don't know why . I just think
some people have it . I think it is over thought . I just want my Drs to take it as seriously
as my pain! I want to be taken seriously, I want to be pain free!


lauren
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01-07-2013, 08:17 PM   #7
kiny
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Well HiV is immunodeficiency, and autoimmune disease seem to be an over active immune system, so not sure how that works?
Crohn's disease shows inflammation, and lots of cytokine are involved during active disease, but the innate immune system in crohn's disease and the genetic susceptibility show immune deficiencies at particular loci, related to autophagy, macrophage deficiencies and there are lots of similarities between mycobacteria susceptibility.

Autoimmunity in crohn's disease is a nice theory but there is no evidence of this atm in any form. There are no known autoantigens, the "patchyness" of crohn's disease (skip lesions) contradict the autoimmune theory, genome studies contradict this, and antibiotics are able to induce remission. To this day there is no evidence of autoimmunity in crohn's disease, I think this point needs to be made somewhat more clear because I am under the impression that people think this is an accepted theory, it's not. It's a theory that is pretty much dead at this point. (A study showed they could create a continous T Cell response in rats even when the bacteria is removed, but there is no evidence this is happening crohn's disease at all)

In fact the first studies that showed immune deficiencies in crohn's disease used nothing other than Viagra to increase blood flow which increased bacterial clearance of non-pathogenic invaders which were artificially injected in people with crohn's disease to measure their immune status, which shows an underresponsive immune system.

If you can wrap your head around that, you can look at studies that show crohn's disease actually has an inflammation deficiency in the innate immune system. Lack of alpha defensin also.

There are also immune deficiencies in people with crohn's disease related to mutations in the VDR gene, the receptor for vitamin D.

There are a number of similarities between HIV and Crohn's disease. One that they both involve immune deficiencies, the second is that they are both in some way related to mycobacteria.

M. Avium Complex infections are common in people with HIV (although this is going down thanks to HIV treatment), MAC is part of the mycobacteria genus. Crohn's disease shows susceptibility to this genus, it actually shows a lot of similarities to M Leprae susceptibility shown in the Nature study published last month.

That one is a precursor for the other is something I don't think is rooted in evidence though. Never heard of an increase in crohn in HIV patients.
01-08-2013, 09:13 AM   #8
Ihurt
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I agree with you Kiny. I do not think "they" know what cuases crohns disease.
They call everything "they" dont know an autoimmune disease from what I am learning.

But yeah, for HIV, you can only get it through being infected with it thorugh blood, period. There is no other way you are going to get HIV/AIDS. Now with crohns, who knows how one gets it. It could be just the food we are eating. Everything is genetically modified and we all know this is toxic to the body. I also think some are just more suseptible for whatever reason, maybe we are weak in that area, who knows. Some people resopnd to antibitoic therapy which says it may have something to do with a bacteria that is causing crohns, but again there are some out there who have the same exact bacteria and they do not het crohns. I think you have to have a weakness to begin with in that area.










Crohn's disease shows inflammation, and lots of cytokine are involved during active disease, but the innate immune system in crohn's disease and the genetic susceptibility show immune deficiencies at particular loci, related to autophagy, macrophage deficiencies and there are lots of similarities between mycobacteria susceptibility.

Autoimmunity in crohn's disease is a nice theory but there is no evidence of this atm in any form. There are no known autoantigens, the "patchyness" of crohn's disease (skip lesions) contradict the autoimmune theory, genome studies contradict this, and antibiotics are able to induce remission. To this day there is no evidence of autoimmunity in crohn's disease, I think this point needs to be made somewhat more clear because I am under the impression that people think this is an accepted theory, it's not. It's a theory that is pretty much dead at this point. (A study showed they could create a continous T Cell response in rats even when the bacteria is removed, but there is no evidence this is happening crohn's disease at all)

In fact the first studies that showed immune deficiencies in crohn's disease used nothing other than Viagra to increase blood flow which increased bacterial clearance of non-pathogenic invaders which were artificially injected in people with crohn's disease to measure their immune status, which shows an underresponsive immune system.

If you can wrap your head around that, you can look at studies that show crohn's disease actually has an inflammation deficiency in the innate immune system. Lack of alpha defensin also.

There are also immune deficiencies in people with crohn's disease related to mutations in the VDR gene, the receptor for vitamin D.

There are a number of similarities between HIV and Crohn's disease. One that they both involve immune deficiencies, the second is that they are both in some way related to mycobacteria.

M. Avium Complex infections are common in people with HIV (although this is going down thanks to HIV treatment), MAC is part of the mycobacteria genus. Crohn's disease shows susceptibility to this genus, it actually shows a lot of similarities to M Leprae susceptibility shown in the Nature study published last month.

That one is a precursor for the other is something I don't think is rooted in evidence though. Never heard of an increase in crohn in HIV patients.
01-06-2014, 02:13 AM   #9
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crap necroed old thread.
05-17-2014, 09:28 AM   #10
nogutsnoglory
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For those of you who have HIV/AIDS and crohns do you take immunosuppressants? Are you even able.

These 2 diseases seem like an awful combo. Crohn's is an overactive AI disease and HIV/AIDS is an underactive immune system.

I'm wondering what drugs could work since most either increase or suppress. New drugs like the one by QU biologics linked in my signature may be the answer because that involves immunomodulation. I have no clue just hypothesizing.
05-17-2014, 03:20 PM   #11
gemling
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Interesting question, NGNG. I work in the HIV/AIDS field (not medically, but in the charity sector), so this topic is vey interesting to me.

I don't believe the two are connected in such a way for the record.
08-08-2014, 11:12 PM   #12
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An interesting paper pertaining to Crohn's and HIV. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9412950

There is nothing in the literature consistent with there being a causal relationship between HIV and Crohn's. In fact, there are descriptions of cases of IBD going back to the time of Giovanni Battista Morgagni in the mid-1700's. As this well proceeds the first AIDS cases I think we need not worry about a causal relationship.

However, it should not come as any surprise that two conditions that involve the immune system have some overlap of issues involved.

Just a word to the wise - as we all know Crohn's causes inflammation of mucous membranes. HIV typically gets access through mucus membranes. Any disease damaging mucous membranes provides an easier route for acquiring HIV. There is nothing specific in this to Crohn's, as many things, including std's and any other conditions that damage the integrity of the membrane, would have a similar effect. The inflammatory process might add an additional element as it brings immune cells into close proximity to the virus that would infect them.

The points made above about the "the autoimmune theory" of Crohn's needs to be repeatedly made. All the drugs we are using are potent drugs that are potentially very damaging. So, it would be nice if emphasis was placed on treating actual causes rather than on using drugs which, while useful, are based on an unsubstantiated aetiology. The utility of the drugs coupled with the profitability of such meds, can act as a dampener on the sort of research needed to identify the cause or causes of Crohn's syndrome(not Crohn's disease). Indeed syndrome is more appropriate than disease because we are classifying processes with common features which eventually may be found to be different diseases-We will not know until we have found the actual cause/causes.
03-13-2015, 08:45 PM   #13
nogutsnoglory
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I know this is horrible of me and not scientifically based but it's freaking me out. I met someone at a lecture with AIDS and we were chatting and he was 2 feet from me and kept spitting while he talked.

I just got Remicade and am suppressed and paranoid I may have inhaled some of it. I know this sounds nuts but this illness makes me crazy. I can't afford to get any other health problems! Someone tell me to calm down please And that this is irrational.
03-13-2015, 09:33 PM   #14
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nogutsnoglory, you're just feeling really anxious but there's nothing to worry about. Deep breaths. Nothing bad has happened. Everything is going to be just fine.
03-13-2015, 09:43 PM   #15
Axelfl3333
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There's 2/3 ways to get aids blood,unprotected sex with a carrier and drug use none of which I suspect you do from reading your posts.forget it he,s just been a rude ignorant person.
03-13-2015, 10:24 PM   #16
nogutsnoglory
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Thanks guys. I know I'm being paranoid. He wasn't being rude, he just didn't realize he was spitting at me while talking!
03-13-2015, 10:34 PM   #17
Lady Organic
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I can imagine this experience is really worrying but, rationally, you dont have to worry. you cant get infected with HIV by saliva and skin/nostril

From the : National Center for HIV, STD, and TB Prevention:

http://web.archive.org/web/200502041...ansmission.htm

''Saliva, Tears, and Sweat

HIV has been found in saliva and tears in very low quantities from some AIDS patients. It is important to understand that finding a small amount of HIV in a body fluid does not necessarily mean that HIV can be transmitted by that body fluid. HIV has not been recovered from the sweat of HIV-infected persons. Contact with saliva, tears, or sweat has never been shown to result in transmission of HIV. ''
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03-13-2015, 10:48 PM   #18
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HIV would be like a immuno-supressant for a overactive immune system. report of 4 cases of CD remission after HIV infection:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9512139
03-14-2015, 12:21 AM   #19
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HIV would be like a immuno-supressant for a overactive immune system. report of 4 cases of CD remission after HIV infection:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9512139
That makes a lot of sense. I mean, it's also seriously awful -- because it means that no matter how overactive your immune system it still can't duke it out with HIV and win (not without serious medical intervention anyways). But it makes a lot of sense.
03-14-2015, 11:59 AM   #20
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If it could be passed by saliva, I think someone would have realised it by now, there would be an awful lot more cases of it and there would be as many warnings about kissing as there are about unprotected sex.
03-18-2015, 11:27 AM   #21
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Reading this reminded me of something I read about low B12 (as is likely in Crohns) increasing the risk of people with HIV developing AIDS.
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