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Crohn's Disease Forum » Diet, Fitness, and Supplements » So are grains good or bad??


 
06-21-2014, 01:52 PM   #1
Sea_Star
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So are grains good or bad??

Pretty confused! I was just looking at some old notes from a Nutrition course from college, where it says Whole Grains are very healthy and needed! But then looking at the SCD....it's the complete opposite. If I start the SCD will grains bother me, as they haven't so far??
06-21-2014, 02:12 PM   #2
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whole grains are full of fibre..which is undoubtedly great for people with healthy guts to maintain a good colon health. But people with CD usually avoid it for the same reason.
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06-21-2014, 02:30 PM   #3
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Diet is a pretty individual thing. Often it goes the complete opposite a 'healthy' diet. I love raw veggies but I have major blockage problems so they're out. I have some fiber in my diet but to much causes pain. When I'm really sick white bread is one of the only things I can eat.

You really need to try and see.
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06-21-2014, 06:36 PM   #4
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There is almost no medical research on how the SCD diet effects on IBD. It is not considered treatment at this time.
06-21-2014, 08:08 PM   #5
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We had this problem with my daughter, I was told to give fiber but she grew worse.
My advice if your concern just try a little at a time.

SCD has been a help to many people but not a cure by any means.
We have a support group for this type of diet.
http://www.crohnsforum.com/showthread.php?t=48313
You'll be able to get positive feed back from people who it's helped and or tried it.
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06-21-2014, 11:23 PM   #6
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Whole grains in terms of nutrition, are a good choice, but not needed. For the most part, nutrition that has been taught in the past few decades has been pretty poor, same outdated information repeated over and over again.

Luckily over the past five or so years we are getting away from some of these rules that were etched in stone for so long.

Eating a balanced diet is always great. But if you're trying to lose weight the main thing is to create a calorie deficit in your diet.
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06-22-2014, 12:14 AM   #7
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The foods eliminated on SCD are cut out based on the idea that they contribute to an overgrowth of certain types of bacteria, so it goes beyond cutting out what causes a noticeable reaction. SCD is about re-balancing gut bacteria and allowing the gut to heal. Have you read Breaking the Vicious Cycle? If you are thinking of starting SCD and want to understand the reasoning behind it, that is a good place to start.
06-22-2014, 12:52 AM   #8
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A reminder SCD is not a replacement for medication. There is almost no research on it's effects on IBD. it should be discussed with both your GI and a registered dietcian/nutritionist because you lose the ability to eat almost any food you don't make with your own two hands which means it is comically easy to hurt yourself by not consuming enough of many important nutrients that modern food is fortified with to save you the effort of thinking about it.
06-22-2014, 01:24 AM   #9
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Bad, real bad (that's an opinion, shared by SCD, GAPS and paleo and me!)

There is nothing in grain that you can't get from a balanced grain free diet
Here's the opinion of an astrophysicist (yeah, i know, "What?" but his diet rocks)

You're going to get lots of different opinions so the only way to know is to try it for yourself

Bowel Disease, Part II: Healing the Gut By Eliminating Food Toxins
http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2010/07...g-food-toxins/

"Cereal Grain Toxicity
Grasses became the staple foods of agriculture because of their rich yields: a single plant may generate tens of thousands of seeds annually.

Yet this prolific seed production has always made grasses attractive to herbivores, and caused seeds to evolve high levels of toxins designed to poison mammalian digestive tracts, thus enabling their seeds to pass through herbivore guts undigested. It is these toxins that make the cereal grains so dangerous to human health.

The effectiveness of grain toxins at sabotaging human digestion is illustrated by the increase in fecal mass they produce:

For every gram of wheat bran eaten, fecal weight increases by 5.7 grams. [1]

By inhibiting human digestion, wheat toxins dramatically increase the amount of undigested starch reaching the colon. This increased food supply substantially increases the bacterial population – and the presence of starch, which is ordinarily unavailable in the colon, favors the growth of pathogenic species.

Unfortunately wheat toxins do much more than inhibit digestion of food. They also damage the gut itself.

Wheat contains an ingenious cocktail of toxins:

Gluten, a complex of proteins, inspires on immune response which inflames the intestine in at least 83% of people [6], and makes the intestine permeable, allowing gut bacteria and their toxins to enter the body. [7] Gluten triggers anti-wheat antibodies in at least 30% of the population, and auto-antibodies – that is, antibodies that attack human cells – in at least 0.4% of the population. [8] These unlucky folks suffer celiac disease, which devastates the intestine, as well as autoimmune thyroiditis. [9]
Opioid peptides produce effects similar to morphine and heroin. Wheat opioids have been implicated as causes of schizophrenia. [10]
Wheat germ agglutinin is a lectin, or protein that binds sugars. At extremely low doses, a few parts per billion, WGA causes gut inflammation and leakiness. At typical dietary doses, WGA causes shedding of the intestinal brush border and shrinkage in the surface area of the intestine. [11] WGA alone can induce celiac disease in rats. [12]

By unknown mechanisms, grains can induce vitamin deficiency diseases. Wheat and oats induce rickets [13] while corn induces pellagra. [14]

Since as little as 1 milligram of gluten per day can prevent recovery from bowel disease [15], it is essential that grains be eliminated entirely from the diet."


[1] Cummings JH. The effect of dietary fibre on fecal weight and composition. Pp 547–73 in: Spiller GA, ed. Handbook of dietary fibre in human nutrition. 2nd ed. Boca Raton, FL: CRC Press, 1993.
Refer to the original article for the rest of the references.
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06-22-2014, 02:27 PM   #10
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A reminder SCD is not a replacement for medication. There is almost no research on it's effects on IBD. it should be discussed with both your GI and a registered dietcian/nutritionist because you lose the ability to eat almost any food you don't make with your own two hands which means it is comically easy to hurt yourself by not consuming enough of many important nutrients that modern food is fortified with to save you the effort of thinking about it.
I think it is also important not to think of medication as a replacement for conscientious dietary choices.
06-22-2014, 02:29 PM   #11
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I'm sorry but no matter what you say the lack of empirical evidence means SCD is not a treatment for IBD. You're also straying perilously close to victim blaming right here, are you implying we choose to be sick?
06-22-2014, 03:12 PM   #12
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I'm not sure how advocating for conscientious dietary choices could be seen as victim blaming. Shouldn't we be conscientious about all the choices we make regarding our health- medication included?

Actually, the choices I've made for myself about diet have helped me move past feeling like a victim. I think it is empowering to take ownership of how you treat your body.

Regarding empirical evidence, you're right that the research is limited. I won't claim to be an expert, but I think a discrepancy in funding is a factor to consider when comparing research on pharmaceuticals and nutrition. While limited, I find the research that exists to be encouraging.
06-22-2014, 06:11 PM   #13
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First up, an apology to Orchid, It's not an attack, just a radically different way of looking at the same thing.........

A reminder SCD is not a replacement for medication.
And a reminder that medication is not a substitute for a healthy diet.
The problem is that what 'conventional wisdom' (or industry propaganda) tells us is that dead industrial 'food-like products' formulated with chemicals and industrial byproducts to have 'craveability', and with a wilful ignorance of the complexity of nutrition, can provide health by adding a few artificial chemically derived 'flavour of the month' nutrients.

There is almost no research on it's effects on IBD.
There is almost no money to be made and no research funding available. (where's the profit in turning away from industrail food production and industrial pharmaceuticals?)
What studies that have been done are promising.

it should be discussed with both your GI and a registered dietcian/nutritionist
Keeping in mind that your GI may have studied as few as 20 hours of nutrition during his training and that will have revolved around the conventional wisdom prevailing at there time of his training (“saturated fat is bad, grain is good”), and your dietician has been thoroughly indoctrinated into the prevailing (industrial) food mythology.[1]

because you lose the ability to eat almost any food you don't make with your own two hands which means it is comically easy to hurt yourself by not consuming enough of many important nutrients that modern food is fortified with to save you the effort of thinking about it.
Quite the opposite, anything you don't cook with your own two hands is likely tobe made with the cheapest raw materials (GE corn,soy), reduced to derivatives in a factory,[2] adulterated with chemicals to improve its shelf life, colour, taste, addictiveness (cravability in the industry).
The notion that toxic industrial 'food-like products' with a couple of low quality additives will be better for your health that real food is laughable and is easily demonstrated by looking at any graph of chronic disease rates vs eating habits or time (time relating to the replacement of food with 'product'.)

to save you the effort of thinking about it.
Please, think about it, think for yourself, research, ask questions, try things, look around you, is the food we are eating doing harm or good?

[1] How to Win an Argument With a Nutritionist
http://authoritynutrition.com/how-to...-nutritionist/

[2] Ingredients Derived From Corn - What to Avoid
http://www.livecornfree.com/2010/04/...n-what-to.html
06-22-2014, 06:33 PM   #14
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There is almost no money to be made and no research funding available. (where's the profit in turning away from industrial food production and industrial pharmaceuticals?)
What studies that have been done are promising.


Keeping in mind that your GI may have studied as few as 20 hours of nutrition during his training and that will have revolved around the conventional wisdom prevailing at there time of his training (“saturated fat is bad, grain is good”), and your dietician has been thoroughly indoctrinated into the prevailing (industrial) food mythology.[1]



Quite the opposite, anything you don't cook with your own two hands is likely to be made with the cheapest raw materials (GE corn,soy), reduced to derivatives in a factory,[2] adulterated with chemicals to improve its shelf life, colour, taste, addictiveness (cravability in the industry).
The notion that toxic industrial 'food-like products' with a couple of low quality additives will be better for your health that real food is laughable and is easily demonstrated by looking at any graph of chronic disease rates vs eating habits or time (time relating to the replacement of food with 'product'.)


Please, think about it, think for yourself, research, ask questions, try things, look around you, is the food we are eating doing harm or good?

[1] How to Win an Argument With a Nutritionist
http://authoritynutrition.com/how-to...-nutritionist/

[2] Ingredients Derived From Corn - What to Avoid
http://www.livecornfree.com/2010/04/...n-what-to.html
I've been personally involved in a similar movement in psychiatry, the theory (I use this in the academic sense, we a strong basis of evidence now) that "psychotic illness" is treatable without medication with therapy based methods such as CBT, mindfulness techniques, and a respectful dialogue. I've also studied biochem and know what's behind the curtain. The notion that "there's no grant money" is laughable or there's an "industry lobby" working against you on that sort of conspiratorial scale. If you can consistently produce results you WILL get more funding to do more studies, just like we did because while there's aggressive competition in academia, there's also a huge drive for results because of it. In your world this shouldn't be possible because of the huge pharmaceutical lobby that makes record shattering profits off antidepressants and antipsychotics but somehow there's more then enough funding for serious research because we get serious results. I find it more likely there simply isn't enough good evidence to warrant interest by serious research groups.
06-23-2014, 03:03 PM   #15
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Whoa, I'm gone for a few days and this thread's immune system goes crazy lol

All valid points. Orchid: that is a great analogy to Psychiatry and Psychology (daughter of a Psychiatrist here!). GI-Psychiatrist as Nutritionist-Psychologist...perhaps? Some cases can be dealt with Psychotherapy alone, but chronic recurrent mood disorders, usually means a "chemical imbalance"

Magnolia: I have read the book! it makes a looot of sense. But it's the chicken or the egg thought I have: did overgrowth of bad bacteria result out of Crohn's? Or did it contribute? I mean....people who are on TERRIBLE diets probably have really bad bacteria running rampant in their colons, yet they're not victims of intermittent colon inflammation/IBD. And for the most part, inflammation is in the TI, so are all the bad bacteria hanging out at the TI club, vs the rest of the colon?

Hugh: Interesting about the grain toxicity. But again, if they're so toxic, how come it doesn't really affect the majority of people? (even asymptomatically, if we go by fecal size alone...our colons are capable and "designed" to have bulk..) In fact, whole grains slow down digestion which is beneficial in Diabetes patients, but I've been hearing recently what the article you posted has said.

Oh mannnn...does this mean no more pasta or rice?! ( Unless,there is a balance: effective medication to keep the inflammation down with a "balanced" diet. But wait, SCD allows forbidden foods at some point. So is the problem with grains is that too much of it (or anything) increases bad bacteria? Or will one plate of pasta spark World War III in the intestines (even if you don't "feel" it, or are aware of it happening)...
06-23-2014, 06:04 PM   #16
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I'm sorry but no matter what you say the lack of empirical evidence means SCD is not a treatment for IBD. You're also straying perilously close to victim blaming right here, are you implying we choose to be sick?
I always laugh when I hear this "no evidence" retort. What benefit would it be to any company to do any type of "dietary study" on SCD? There is no incentive for a company to be involved, no incentive to make money, therefore, no research will be done.

There is, however, a plethora of personal accounts over and over of the effectiveness of diets like SCD/Paleo etc. And to imply that none of them work due to no empirical evidence being shown is laughable.

Sorry, I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but it's the truth.
06-23-2014, 06:08 PM   #17
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I always laugh when I hear this "no evidence" retort. What benefit would it be to any company to do any type of "dietary study" on SCD? There is no incentive for a company to be involved, no incentive to make money, therefore, no research will be done.

There is, however, a plethora of personal accounts over and over of the effectiveness of diets like SCD/Paleo etc. And to imply that none of them work due to no empirical evidence being shown is laughable.

Sorry, I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but it's the truth.
This is at best a conspiracy theory, treatments the drug industry can't benefit from can easily find funding if their results are good enough. Academia is concerned with results above all else because everyone wants to be That Guy who gets a Peace Prize. See my earlier post the success of the CBT therapy for psychotic illness.
06-23-2014, 06:28 PM   #18
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Whoa, I'm gone for a few days and this thread's immune system goes crazy lol ...
argueing on the internet? surely not


Hugh: Interesting about the grain toxicity. But again, if they're so toxic, how come it doesn't really affect the majority of people? (even asymptomatically, if we go by fecal size alone...our colons are capable and "designed" to have bulk..) In fact, whole grains slow down digestion which is beneficial in Diabetes patients, but I've been hearing recently what the article you posted has said.
There is a theory growing in popularity that the bacteria in our colon constitutes an organ in and of itself.[1] It's new and there are lots of overblown claims that we are on the verge of curing everything, but very promising nonetheless, if for no other reason than that we begin to understand how little we understand.
As far as the majority of people, Alessio Fasano has done alot of pioneering work linking (grain inducd) intestinal permeability to all autoimmune diseases[2].
Your genetics and your microbiome will determine what illness and how bad it is. Obesity and Diabetes being the most prevalent diseases caused by dead industrial carb loaded food.

Oh mannnn...does this mean no more pasta or rice?!.
I tried SCD and have a lot of respect for it, but it was just a stepping stone to paleo for me. From there i have added carbs (but not grains (except white rice)) back in with no troubles.
There may be a value to severe carb restriction for a short while to starve the 'bad' bacteria out, making repopulation easier but the science not there yet.
I have settled on the 'Perfect Health Diet", which is basically paleo based but medium carb, allowing white rice (due to it's lack of toxicity).
The reasoning being that our ancestors didn't jump from being leaf eating forest dwellers to meat eating paleo hunter gatherers without a few hundred thousand years roaming the grasslands digging up every carb loaded tuber they could find.
White rice has led to noodles and rice paper rolls and rice crackers so it is pretty easy to keep on the diet

I still tell people i eat paleo but have to get past the preconceptions (raw meat, lots of nuts, Atkins, etc), but really it is JUST REAL FOOD, no processed seed oils, no corn or soy based extruded paste 'foods', low sugar, lots of fermented foods.
It's lots of work but i love the food and how it makes me feel.
I'm happy to be a tin hat wearing conspiracy theorist, but every one has to choose between the red and the blue pill for themselves.

[1] The microbiome as a human organ
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22647038
Me, myself, us
http://www.economist.com/node/21560523
The gut microbiome: the role of a virtual organ in the endocrinology of the host
http://joe.endocrinology-journals.or...218/3/R37.full

[2] Leaky Gut and Autoimmune Diseases
http://crohnsdad.files.wordpress.com...toimmunity.pdf


" This new paradigm subverts traditional theories underlying the development of these diseases and suggests that these processes can be arrested if the interplay between genes and environmental triggers is prevented by re-establishing the zonulin-dependent intestinal barrier function."
06-23-2014, 06:35 PM   #19
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This is at best a conspiracy theory, treatments the drug industry can't benefit from can easily find funding if their results are good enough. Academia is concerned with results above all else because everyone wants to be That Guy who gets a Peace Prize. See my earlier post the success of the CBT therapy for psychotic illness.
Actually, you're probably right. I'm sure if I wasn't so lazy at the moment I could spend some time and find some "empirical" evidence that low carb diets (paleo, scd), or modified diets like these restricting bread and milk intake do in fact improve intestinal health.

Regardless, you can find studies nowadays that SAY ANYTHING.

So to me, it really doesn't matter if there's studies out there or not.
06-23-2014, 06:40 PM   #20
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What matters is the quality of their work. A good medical study for SCD for example would have strictly controlled diets for all participants with control groups. It would have weekly blood testing and fecal testing, regular colonoscopies and would last at least 36 weeks. Anything less isn't strong enough to justify pushing something as therapy.

Oh and you need several of these with a few years allowed for the criticism of each.
06-23-2014, 06:49 PM   #21
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Right, but Hugh: if your genetics determine which diseases will "pop" up, then that's not related to diet at all. The gene was there prior to any knowledge of current food available to us...

ok, I'll read the article(s)
06-23-2014, 06:59 PM   #22
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What matters is the quality of their work. A good medical study for SCD for example would have strictly controlled diets for all participants with control groups. It would have weekly blood testing and fecal testing, regular colonoscopies and would last at least 36 weeks. Anything less isn't strong enough to justify pushing something as therapy.

Oh and you need several of these with a few years allowed for the criticism of each.
So are you saying, like, people are going to have to be locked in jail cells and force fed SCD yogurt to adequately monitor that all participants are following the diet "strictly" and not sneaking any cheese and crackers into their diets to contaminate the study?
06-23-2014, 07:05 PM   #23
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Nice strawman, but their diets will need to be controlled by some means. Otherwise there are simply too many confounding factors in the study. Science is hard work. If you're not comfortable with getting the kind of evidence you can take to the FDA for licensing then you're not going to get what you want.

Last edited by Orchid; 06-23-2014 at 07:31 PM.
06-23-2014, 07:19 PM   #24
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06-23-2014, 07:29 PM   #25
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Sorry! Could'nt help myself. I'm leaning with Hugh and Poppysocks on this one.
06-23-2014, 08:05 PM   #26
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Hugh, may I ask a question? What are your opinions regarding positive and negative effects of cannabis to human? Have you ever used it? Would you use it if you think you need it? It has fast acting, powerful positive effects on inflammatory diseases and much more... But I'm concerned its long term neurological effects. There are no heavy, clear data and conclusions about this topic.
06-24-2014, 12:08 AM   #27
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Hugh, may I ask a question? What are your opinions regarding positive and negative effects of cannabis to human? Have you ever used it? Would you use it if you think you need it? It has fast acting, powerful positive effects on inflammatory diseases and much more... But I'm concerned its long term neurological effects. There are no heavy, clear data and conclusions about this topic.
Sorry, way out of my scientific interests zone. (purely recreational here ).
But that's never stopped me having an opinion

Smoking anything is bad,
Vaping is a blast,
Eating it does slow down my digestive transit time
It's not a cure

'long term neurological effects' - probably overstated to scare the bejeezus out of you, reefer madness and all (alcohol and coffee don't interfere with your willingness to go to a shit job year after year, pot does)

You have my permission to experiment
06-24-2014, 12:12 AM   #28
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Right, but Hugh: if your genetics determine which diseases will "pop" up, then that's not related to diet at all. The gene was there prior to any knowledge of current food available to us...

ok, I'll read the article(s)
To oversimplify (hugely)
Genetics + Trigger + Leaky Gut = disease
A genetic predisposition and eating a trigger means nothing if the trigger can't get from the lumen to the blood .......

"We review how microbes may participate in the pathogenesis of CD and how they may inappropriately activate the mucosal immune system in genetically predisposed individuals."
http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/44/2/256.full

"This new paradigm subverts traditional theories underlying the development of these diseases and suggests that these processes can be arrested if the interplay between genes and environmental triggers is
prevented by re-establishing the zonulin-dependent intestinal barrier function."


Great as his work is (Fassano), he doesn't touch on the fact that the bacteria (and mucosal layer that they inhabit) lining your intestine are the first layer of defense, displacing and inhibiting the growth of 'bad' bacteria as well as enhancing or inhibiting the function of the immune system. From what i've read his interest is the physical barrier of cells, not the layers of bacteria and mucus protecting them and priming the immune system.

Some snippets, Gee, isn't sciencey stuff great

"The microbiota is critically important for the breakdown of nutrients, and also assists in preventing colonization by potentially pathogenic bacteria. In addition, the gut commensal bacteria appear to be critical for the development of an optimally functioning immune system.
Various studies have shown that individual species of the microbiota can induce very different types of immune cells (e.g., Th17 cells, Foxp3+ regulatory T cells) and responses, suggesting that the composition of the microbiota can have an important influence on the immune response.
The less than 100% concordance rate for autoimmune diseases in monozygotic twins......suggests that environmental factors can have a strong influence on inflammatory/autoimmune disease development......The composition of the gut microbiota may, therefore, either confer protection or trigger disease in genetically susceptible individuals.
"

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3166766/


"Autoimmune reactions can be both advanced or blocked by the commensal microbiota, which can affect innate and adaptive arms of immune responses as well as the mechanisms of “innate–adaptive connection.” "
http://cshperspectives.cshlp.org/con...94.short?rss=1

Last edited by hugh; 06-24-2014 at 03:41 AM.
06-26-2014, 06:26 PM   #29
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and the question of the evening for this post isss:

How do you know you have a Leaky Gut?
I wish I could talk to my colon and find out what they think in there lol. Just like in Osmosis Jones, except the host (us) would know what's up
06-26-2014, 08:23 PM   #30
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There is almost no medical research on how the SCD diet effects on IBD. It is not considered treatment at this time.
h,m,m,m,....I am a newbie,but...the SCD helps me.
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