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Crohn's Disease Forum » Books, Multimedia, Research & News » Primary manifestation of Inflammatory Bowel Disease (IBD) following subcutaneous autovaccination.


06-21-2015, 07:40 AM   #1
mf15
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Primary manifestation of Inflammatory Bowel Disease (IBD) following subcutaneous autovaccination.

Its a holy crap, what is going on here. I can guess none of us have done this.

But what happens prior to IBD if say you have a bleeding hemi.

Or just a hard stool that scrapes off the mucus layer, and you bleed and the immune system can sample all the bacteria in the stool,or is this person
a special case,just coincidence,or is this a clue to what is going on.
Is oral FMT a possible, remember the autologous FMT trial, where they used
your own stool as a control and there seemed to be some sort of remission
effect.




Old Mike

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26088200




Primary manifestation of Inflammatory Bowel Disease (IBD) following subcutaneous autovaccination.

Raithel M1, Weidenhiller M2, Hahn M3, Hagel A4, Bechthold C4, Neurath MF4, Rieker RJ5, Stein J6.


Author information

1Dept. Medicine 1, Gastroenterology, Functional Tissue Diagnostics, University of Erlangen, Germany [email protected].
2Gastroenterological Practice, Regensburg, Germany.
3Department of Anaesthesiology, Kantonsspital Liestal, Switzerland.
4Dept. Medicine 1, Gastroenterology, Functional Tissue Diagnostics, University of Erlangen, Germany.
5Department of Pathology, University of Erlangen, Germany.
6Department of Nutritional Medicine, Sachsenhausen Hospital, Teaching Hospital of the J.W. von Goethe University, Frankfurt/Main, Germany Crohn-Colitis Centre Rhein-Main, Frankfurt/Main, Germany.


Abstract


Onset of inflammatory bowel disease (IBD) is nowadays seen as an interplay or a combination of genetic susceptibility, disturbed intestinal immunity and environmental factors including gut microbiome. However, the initiation of inflammation and progression to IBD pathogenesis in a given individual is poorly understood.In this case report we describe the clinical course of a 17-year old female patient, developing symptoms suggestive of IBD after "autovaccine therapy", in which sterilized samples of the patient's own stool were injected subcutaneously for improvement of her general immunity. The patient presented with a severe onset of disease, which was firstly suspected as ulcerative colitis on outpatient examination and later corrected to IBD with Crohn's- like features in our institution, due to high systemic inflammation, mixed lymphocytic-granulocytic infiltrates in gastric biopsies and further characteristics suggestive of Crohn's disease. A prolonged and complicated course was seen subsequently with intermittent steroid dependency in the long term.Numerous publications postulate that (auto-)immune reactions against resident bacterial stool flora may play a role in IBD. It is possible that in this patient tolerance to endogenous bacteria was disrupted by systemic pro-inflammatory mechanisms induced by autovaccination.
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Last edited by mf15; 06-21-2015 at 07:59 AM.
06-21-2015, 09:55 AM   #2
ppk
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Massachusetts
Holy. So then, if this study's hypothesis is correct, using something like Qu Biologics' QBECO SSI would help train the body to fight and rid itself of enteropathogens, and using FMT could possibly re-induce tolerance to commensal flora. Perhaps using probiotics concomitantly, like B. infantis (Align), F. prausnitzii, L. rhamnosus GG, etc., would also have beneficial immunomodulatory effects.

Or maybe we should just wipe the slate clean and nuke the immune system with HSCT:
http://www.gastrojournal.org/article...156-0/fulltext
06-21-2015, 02:38 PM   #3
wildbill_52280
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Typically these molecules from stool that were introduced into the patients bloodstream would have been limited by whatever GI barrier remained, as only accepted molecules gain entrance past epithelial cells. Intracellular absorption through g.i. barrier is selective, while paracellular is non selective, and leaky gut is an example of extreme paracellular absorption where anything enters. by injecting dead bacterial cells and their metabolites back into the blood stream would be similar to leaky gut effect where anything would enter the body non selectively. Inflammatory components like LPS/lipopolysacharide would still remain intact regardless of whether the bacteria is alive or dead, that alone could stimulate and inflammatory reaction.

I'm not sure exactly how it would create a local effect in the intestines though, such as this case, so that's interesting, but there could be other rnolecules in the sterilized stool which may have some specific effect on the intestines. come to think of it many pathogens create specific molecules that can act upon intestinal tight junction protein which regulate paracellular intestinal permeability, so that could create a specific effect on the intestines to create a localized effect on the intestines like we see in this case.

The specific beneficial bacteria that are missing in IBD are bacteria who's purpose seems to be to inhabit the intestinal lining and strengthen the barrier, they are butyrate producers and butyrate is a main variable to intestinal barrier function, so IBD itself could be in part defined as a loss of barrier function. so anything that would have the power to affect tight junction proteins and barrier function, may simulate many observable characteristics of IBD.
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Last edited by wildbill_52280; 06-21-2015 at 03:12 PM.
06-21-2015, 10:19 PM   #4
Lady Organic
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im not sure I understand properly... so this girl, with the objective of improuving her ''general immunity'' injected herself with her stools in her bloodstream? then developped CD... Am I correct? If I understand that right, I believe a person motivated to do such a thing must have been very sick from ''something'' to come up with such a solution... she maybe had a beginning crohns before the injection.
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06-22-2015, 05:49 AM   #5
mf15
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Pennsylvania
Well it seems they have been doing this for over 100 years,in Germany.
Old Mike

short version
http://www.autovaccine.de/ND/english..._vaccines.html


Long version
http://www.old-herborn-university.de..._article_9.pdf
06-22-2015, 08:06 AM   #6
Lady Organic
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in the article, they mention :'' autogenous vaccines are only useful in case of chronic or recurrent disease''. This is logical to me and I wouldnt understand why any 17 y-old would go for such a procedure if she was healthy. they further mention ''repeated abscesses'' as one indication for this treatment... In the original case study, nothing in the abstract clarifies the condition the 17 year old was in. Abscesses for instance are well-known to be possible precursor, extra-intestinal manifestations, of onset of Crohn's disease. so we can logically conclude that some patients treated for abscesses with this auto-vaccine treatment could in fact be crohns's disease patients in the making...
this case study makes me think of the case study published not so long ago about fecal transplant and weight gain. the patient was suffering from other digestive issues when she received the FMT. when several issues/variables are implicated in one patient, how can we draw a conclusion? I find it weird that such cases are being published. is it aimed to discredit potential treatments? because it may definately have a deterrent effect on patients and the medical community. The FMT gain weight case has gotten bad press in the media...
08-13-2015, 05:50 PM   #7
crohninator
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Hi,

I'm going to try this treatment for my crohns soon, cause its available here in Germany and the indication for its usage is Crohns. I will get my medication in two weeks.

You may have heard of QU biologics and its trials with dead e.coli bacteria. Well they seem to have some success with the idea of injecting DEAD e.coli bacteria in patients with crohns. Take a look at it, its very interesting.

You don't inject living e.coli bacteria. These are bacterial rests of your non pathogen e.coli strains and if you have crohn's (and you know it) you have to be extremely careful with the dosage. Otherwise your strongly compromised immunity gets another overload and there is no training effect but an aggravation of the disease.
When you first go to the gym you don't start with 200 pounds.
I believe, that due to the fact that this girl didn't know she had crohn's she was given a wrong dosage

Best regards and stay critical.
08-14-2015, 08:13 AM   #8
ppk
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Massachusetts
I'm going to try this treatment for my crohns soon, cause its available here in Germany and the indication for its usage is Crohns. I will get my medication in two weeks.
crohninator, please update us on your progress. I wish you the best of luck - hopefully this treatment will be a cure for you!
08-14-2015, 09:45 AM   #9
JMC
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Autovaccination has been used as a treatment for 100 years, but one would assume from this paper that IBD as a consequence was rare or unique to this case. Surely this tells you that there is something unique about this patient or the content of their stools (MAP infection?) which explains this outcome.

Last edited by JMC; 08-14-2015 at 11:41 AM.
08-14-2015, 10:11 AM   #10
ppk
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Massachusetts
Autovaccination has been used as a treatment for 100 years, but one would assume from this paper that IBD as a consequence was rare or unique to this case. Surely this tells you that there is something unique about this patient of the content of their stools (MAP infection?) which explains this outcome.
How would MAP in a vaccine cause this? Incomplete inactivation?
08-14-2015, 10:57 AM   #11
crohninator
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
I'll tell you how I feel when I get the vaccination.
08-14-2015, 11:53 AM   #12
JMC
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How would MAP in a vaccine cause this? Incomplete inactivation?
What is not clear from one example, in one patient, is how her IBD is connected with this vaccination process. If this process has been used on many other occasions with many other patients why has IBD not been previously reported?

From reading the abstract, is it not clear what the "vaccine" protected her against. Was this quantified or is it just hit and hope? How can they rule out accidental systemic infection from pathogenic bacteria which was present in the gut (such as MAP or AIEC) from this process?

It would be good to see the complete paper, but from reading the abstract, it seems sketchy at best.
08-14-2015, 12:16 PM   #13
ppk
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Massachusetts
How can they rule out accidental systemic infection from pathogenic bacteria which was present in the gut (such as MAP or AIEC) from this process?
Well with these autovaccines, the sample is inactivated through some means, such as heat, gamma radiation, UV radiation, formalin, sonication, etc., so there should be no viable bacteria (including MAP) left over. Only the antigens remain, which provoke the immune response.
08-14-2015, 12:20 PM   #14
mf15
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Pennsylvania
I might work just like any other heat killed vaccine.
Except now the immune response is against gut bacteria.
Old Mike
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