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Crohn's Disease Forum » Diet, Fitness, and Supplements » SCD and Paleo Diets » Vitamin B deficiencies in gluten free diets


06-05-2017, 12:38 PM   #1
Crohn2357
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Vitamin B deficiencies in gluten free diets

Hello everyone. I talked to my gastroenterologist three days ago. He said to me that if I don't eat bread I should supplement with Vitamins B1 and B2. He said deficiencies of these could result in encephalopathy.
Look, for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wernic...akoff_syndrome

My diet consists in olive oil, homemade meatballs (%100 red meat), sweet potatoes, rooibos tea and water. I eat those every day, every meal. I sometimes add fish and organ meats too; and that's all.

So I looked for vitamin B contents of what I eat, and I think I may have a problem with deficiencies.

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/...oducts/10526/2
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/...roducts/2667/2

The doctor said I can take a vitamin B complex that doesn't contain Vitamin B12 (my levels are high), or at least to take a supplement that has vit b1 and b2. But I think I also need folic acid and others.

I couldn't find a vit b complex that doesn't have vit b12, some supplements also have the disadvantage of containing lactose as an inactive ingredient.

I don't know, I rarely eat other vegetables. Maybe I should eat organ meats more often to get the b vitamins I need?
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/...roducts/3469/2

Any opinions?
Thanks in advance.
06-05-2017, 02:44 PM   #2
Crohn2357
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No, never mind. I just read these two articles (https://www.thepaleomom.com/nutrient-game-ways-to-up/ https://www.thepaleomom.com/nutrient-density/) and decided not to take any supplements. I'll just eat better.
No veggies? I must've been crazy...
06-05-2017, 09:19 PM   #3
hugh
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Hi,
"No veggies? I must've been crazy... "
sortof...
The fibre is/can be a problem when flaring/unwell etc
-Low fibre tends to help during a flare and more fibre helps stay in remission,
That's about feeding bugs
- out of whack- starve 'em, in balance - feed 'em
When in good health (whatever that means for you) trial one veggie at a time and see how it goes.
One of the big issues with veggies are fodmaps (fermentable carbs basically). There are different sorts and different people will handle different ones differently (did i mention that it's pretty individual).

If you want to delve into poop and microbiomes in a balanced and non-sensational way (pretty hard at the moment) then this is a great one.....
Episode 299 – Dr. Ruscio – The Real Deal With Gut Microbiota
https://robbwolf.com/2015/12/08/epis...ut-microbiota/
takeaway - yes, bugs are important but working out if you need more or less is more important.....

But back to B group vitamins,
First look for it in food - organ meats,
- I mix it up to 10% in mince or grill it, but i don't eat enough of it

It's not just about eating enough, it's about digesting it

"Besides organ meats, many Paleo foods are just as B-vitamin-rich (if not richer) than cereals and legumes. These include fish, meat, eggs, mushrooms, and particular vegetables. Although the Paleo Diet is sometimes criticized for lacking B-vitamins, an objective look at nutritional data proves it offers an abundance of B-vitamins, and perhaps considerably more than the USDA’s high-carbohydrate, cereal-based diet
Summary

Vitamin B1 (Thiamin): The best source is pork, followed by organ meats, and cereals/legumes. Fish such as trout and pike are also very high in B1. A 100-gram serving of these fish yields an equal amount of 300 grams of various cooked cereals/legumes.

Vitamin B2 (Riboflavin): Organ meats are by far the richest sources. Almonds, fish roe, mackerel, eggs, mushrooms, blueberries, lamb, pork, trout, and sardines are tier-2. Cereals/legumes are tier-3 since a 300 gram serving yields roughly the same amount as a 100-gram serving of fish or meat.

Vitamin B3 (Niacin): Organ meats as well as tuna and mackerel are the most potent sources. Other fish, meat, and mushrooms are tier-2 with cereals/legumes being tier-3.

Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic acid): Organ meats have three to six times more than tier-2 foods, which include trout, various mushrooms, eggs, and chicken. Uncooked cereals, with cooked serving portions ranging from 220 to 615 grams, are comparable to 100-gram servings of tier-2 foods.

Vitamin B6: Organ meats as well as pork are the best sources. Beef, lamb, fish, walnuts, and bell peppers are also potent sources. Cereals/legumes are decent sources. 300-grams of cooked cereals/legumes yields roughly the same as 100 grams of meat/fish.

Vitamin B9 (Folate): Organ meats and pulses are the best sources. If you consume neither, then it’s best to eat walnuts, fish roe, eggs, and plenty of vegetables, particularly spinach, okra, broccoli, cauliflower, asparagus, and bell peppers.

Vitamin B12: Only present in animal foods, the richest sources by far are organ meats. Mackerel and sardines are also particularly potent. By eating meat, fish, and eggs regularly, you’ll consume plenty of B12."

http://www.christopherjamesclark.com...s-vs-the-data/
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06-06-2017, 05:47 AM   #4
Crohn2357
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Hey hugh, it is good to hear from you. I hope you're doing well.

I listened to that podcast. In the last 4-5 years, and in different times, I tried different ways of manipulating my digestive microbiota. Different prebiotics, different probiotic products, different home-made fermented foods in many different dosages and times. I have never gotten better, and more importantly I always get worse from these doings (sometimes it's even impossible to reverse my situation), and I can't afford risking my health again. So I'm done with experimenting with microbiota now. My crohn's is pretty aggressive and stubborn, and I don't think microbiota is the key to solve Crohn's disease anyway. While I think microbiota is important for health and should be studied, I also think the paleo community (and the scientific circles) are pretty ignorant (at least in depth) about the relationship between human health, and the microbiota at the moment. I find paleo communities' answers shallow. "fixing microbiota..." What do we know about the microbiota, and genetics, and the very individualistic properties about this issues anyway? I think much more scientific knowledge is needed at the moment, at least for people with severe Crohn's disease.

I don't know, maybe I'm the one who is ignorant, I'm not sure.

As for the B group vitamins, I can't eat some of the foods listed in your text, which makes it harder to get the proper amount of vitamins.

I can't eat eggs (not even the yolk), cereals, legumes, pulses, pork (can't find this one in a muslim country), peppers, nuts, seeds, fruits, garlic, onions, olives, mushrooms, yoghurt, cheese, milk, butter...

So I have a very limited diet.

I bought kale and beef liver today. I'm going to cook them in an hour. Thinking they will be very helpful for me to get the micronutrients I need. The paleo mom says these are "superfoods".
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/...roducts/2461/2

I'll eat more organ meats and vegetables.
06-06-2017, 07:07 AM   #5
hugh
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Hi,
i'm doing ok,
hope you're ok too,
While I think microbiota is important for health and should be studied, I also think the paleo community (and the scientific circles) are pretty ignorant (at least in depth) about the relationship between human health, and the microbiota at the moment. I find paleo communities' answers shallow. "fixing microbiota..." What do we know about the microbiota, and genetics, and the very individualistic properties about this issues anyway? I think much more scientific knowledge is needed at the moment, at least for people with severe Crohn's disease.
Yup, that's pretty much what he was saying,

"It's important, we don't understand it, we don't know what we're doing, stop making wild claims."

I don't know, maybe I'm the one who is ignorant, I'm not sure.
No, there is no one who knows more about how you feel than you, others might have (better or worse) theories as to why and what to do.

I really liked that podcast,

He's not taking one outlier study and prognosticating universal cures.

On a whole, looking at many studies, the generalisation that can be made is that
-when things are bad "you" have a probability of better results if "you" head in an anti-microbial direction (diet,herbs,antibiotics etc)
- and when "you" feel better, titrate (slowly, carefully, with awareness) slowly up in a pro-microbiobial direction (fibre, probiotics, etc).
There are supplements/procedures/medicines/foods/therapies etc that help,
but sometimes the ones that help will slow down microbial activity, and sometimes the ones that help will encourage microbial activity and sometimes the ones that help will have effects completely independent of the microbiota.

And it varies from day to day and from person to person,

You've been doing this long enough to know that "someone said this will work so i'm gonna take alot of it" isn't a good way to go.

......There's billions of interaction, more complex than the genome by far.....
.....we don't know shit about it, i agree....

As for the B group vitamins, I can't eat some of the foods listed in your text, which makes it harder to get the proper amount of vitamins.

So I have a very limited diet.
I get it, it sucks.
Anything you cant eat, obviously don't eat it,
For now, real meat and real vegetables, cooked to suit your digestion....
I hope that changes for the better.

I'll eat more organ meats and vegetables.
Superfoods, overused but relevant.
liver- "most nutrient dense food per gram" and
kale- "most nutrient dense food per calorie",
(from our domesticate western pantry, i'm sure bison liver or kangaroo liver might be 'higher' in nutrients (like polar bear liver, ? leathal vitiman A doses or something))
nutrient dense real food is good, from the ones you can tolerate,
- it doesn't have to be liver and kale, whatever 'nutritous' meat and veg you tolerate.

Last edited by hugh; 06-06-2017 at 07:26 AM.
06-06-2017, 07:16 AM   #6
hugh
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As for the B group vitamins, I can't eat some of the foods listed in your text, which makes it harder to get the proper amount of vitamins.
The first item in every category but one was organ meat, it was second in the other category,
Cereals, on the other hand, generally rated low in the B vitamin ranking....

Make you wonder how ideas gets traction?
06-06-2017, 08:16 AM   #7
Crohn2357
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The first item in every category but one was organ meat, it was second in the other category,
Cereals, on the other hand, generally rated low in the B vitamin ranking....

Make you wonder how ideas gets traction?
The most common commercial cereal products (like breads...) are generally fortified with vitamins. It's an established health policy in many countries to fortify them. Just look at the vitamin B content, especially thiamine -which is hard to get from other foods- of white bread, while, on the other hand, look for the beef liver , kale , sweet potato, and grass fed beef (ground).
You can see how poor they are, especially in regards to the thiamin (vit. B1) content.

I'm considering to supplement with thiamine only, if I can find a decent and inexpensive product.

---------------------------- --------------------------------------------

EDIT: I thought maybe lamb kidney would have a good amount of thiamine, I looked for it, and turns out yes, it is an excellent source. Such a relief!

Just to add here, although I don't eat white rice, I see that it too naturally contains thiamine and folate. I'll keep that in mind.

Last edited by Crohn2357; 06-06-2017 at 02:16 PM.
06-06-2017, 11:53 AM   #8
Beach
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One of the problems I found with synthetic vitamins in my readings is that they are not substitutes for the real thing. Lab made synthetic vitamins may come close to matching a vitamin found in nature, but the match is not close enough. They do not solve nutritional deficiencies found with a particular nutrient. Synthetic vitamin C does not cure scurvy. Synthetic B vitamins do not cure beri beri, pellagra, etc. One can not live off of synthetic vitamins.
06-06-2017, 12:51 PM   #9
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I have first hand experience with scurvy. About 3 years ago I was too sick, I couldn't eat any fruits and vegetables. This caused scurvy, I suffered it without knowing what I was suffering, then I made research about vitamin C, and found out I was suffering from scurvy. I started to take synthetic vitamin C regularly and if I remember correctly, within 10 days I was completely free of scurvy. It was such a relief.

What you're saying doesn't sound true to me, do you have any articles to support that view? As a counter argument, just think about the whole supplement industry in the US. It wouldn't stand (and grow) if synthetic vitamins couldn't cure deficiency related problems.

One can not live off of synthetic vitamins.
Although I haven't done any research on that, my estimate is, there must be millions of people around the world living off of at least one synthetic vitamin, whether because of insufficient nutrition, a special diet (say, due to sickness or even life choices like veganism, or religions), acute/chronic illnesses, medication use that prevents you from eating/getting some vitamins from diet or depleting your body of some vitamins...

I've been taking vitamin d capsules daily for the last 3 years and my vitamin d levels are always excellent (I get lab tests regularly), and no, I nearly live indoors all my life, so very little sun exposure.

As another example, food fortification had been immensely helpful for solving vitamin deficiencies in various parts of the world.
06-06-2017, 01:25 PM   #10
Beach
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Crohn2357 - where you diagnosed medically with scurvy? I took an interest in reading about scurvy last year, reading up on it. Fascinating disease, and deadly of course for millions at one time. It was interesting how a cure eventually was discovered with fresh fruits and vegetables, ignored for awhile, but eventually helped save the lives of many, sailors in particular.

I'm glad that you found the vitamin C helpful to you and your health. That is the most important thing Crohn2357, if you found the item helps your health then please continue taking it.

The argument that one can not live off of synthetic vitamins can be read many places on the internet. Doing a search will bring up hits on this topic.

As for books on the topic this is one that I enjoyed:

Real Truth about Vitamins and Anti-Oxidants

https://www.amazon.com/Real-Truth-ab...+anti-oxidants

Clinical Nutritionist, health researcher, and writer, Judith DeCava explains in detail the differences between natural and synthetic nutrition. ?Read whole chapters on a specific nutrient complex, the deficiency symptoms associated with it, and how the complexes work together synergistically. ?Learn about the highly toxic, drug-like effects synthetic supplements have on the body and why we have been led to believe these unnatural substances are identical substitutes for nutrients found in real, whole food.
I personally stopped taking vitamin D awhile ago. I am able to get outside into the sun on a regular basis year round. Also I began reading about light therapy and how helpful that can be. Often vitamin D is confused with light therapy and its health benefits. Each to ones own though.
06-06-2017, 01:48 PM   #11
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I diagnosed myself based on my symptoms and my diet. I agree, it is an interesting topic historically.

I've been using max. dose of 6mp since the last year, that's why I avoid going out. You know, sunlight massively increases the associated skin cancer risk in 6mp patients.

I still haven't decided whether I should take a thiamine supplement or leave it. I guess I won't take a supplement, but be watchful with my dietary intake.
06-06-2017, 01:48 PM   #12
Beach
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Looking in my office I see another book on the topic that might be of interest. It can be seen here:

Man Cannot Live on Vitamins Alone: How vitamin supplements &corporate

https://www.amazon.com/Man-Cannot-Li...rds=vic+shayne

Are corporate scientists and the supplement industry fooling us? Big business, politics and chemical manufacturers influence the course of health careeven so-called natural health caremore than most of us realize. Instead of understanding and appreciating natural foods and environmental health, we have been confused and misled to believe that scientists can improve on Nature without creating a dangerous chain reaction of side effects and toxicity. If you take vitamin supplements, Man Cannot Live on Vitamins Alone, by Dr. Vic Shayne, is a wake-up call that can save you and your familys health. This critically-important, easy-to-read book scientifically proves that vitamins and other nutrients are nutritious only when still contained in their original foods. Supplements are either natural or they are not, and theres nothing natural about a vitamin that has been extracted from a food or made in a laboratory. This book shows you how to tell the difference between real nutrition and foods that have been altered by science!
06-06-2017, 01:52 PM   #13
Beach
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I diagnosed myself based on my symptoms and my diet. I agree, it is an interesting topic historically.

I've been using max. dose of 6mp since the last year, that's why I avoid going out. You know, sunlight massively increases the associated skin cancer risk in 6mp patients.

I still haven't decided whether I should take a thiamine supplement or leave it. I guess I won't take a supplement, but be watchful with my dietary intake.
I thought I was suffering from scurvy myself last year. I had many of the symptoms. What I found is for some strange reason when I eat pork, on a daily basis, I show signs of scurvy or at least the signs I'm familiar with that dreadful disease. Why that happens to me, I don't know. I have a few clues, but it is one of those things I'm trying to work out.

Best with your health. Hope you find what works for you. With your medication you need to stay out of the sun it sounds like.
06-06-2017, 02:29 PM   #14
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Thanks Beach, our conversation stimulated further thoughts in my head.

I am all for "real food". Human beings are the only species on earth that feel the need to take supplements to live healthy. As I said, there are many (and some justified) reasons for it, but I believe a man can live healthily on a paleo lifestyle alone (assuming no hard situations).

This book, for example, I can easily say, saved my life. It gave me an in depth understanding of the many different facets of health, lifestyle, diet. I would heartily recommend it to everyone, especially for Crohn's sufferers.

Before the AIP diet, I tried different versions of paleo, and SCD. I followed them strictly, yet always got worse. I think the AIP should be considered as the gold standart for Crohn's people. AIP diet + an extensive elimination diet would help many people a lot.

I'm not saying I'm %100 better. I had to make major lifestyle changes (like dropping out of the college, living alone and stress free...), nearly all my colon was resected a year ago (so I'm living with a stoma, which probably will be permanent, unfortunately), taking my immunosuppressants, following a very restricted diet etc... But after living in a hell for years, I feel content now.
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