Equality means EQUALITY!

[BWS1982]

I don't know why I get involved in some things (too much obsession fused with passion) but I had to snap back at an online thing when I saw some (supposedly) women rallying to a man-hating cause. This makes me FURIOUS that "equality" is what some preach, but then when you break it down, what they really seek is "superiority" or revenge. They can take their pick, but it such as hell ain't "equality"...

It's not like I seek these outrages out, I stumble on them somehow. My response, that hopefully gets through (I'm shouting on the proverbial web-rooftop here):

"Men rarely choose monogamy"?

At least your qualifier is in there: "rarely"....

Otherwise, I'm disgusted with blanket statements like that, it's sick. It's been done by both genders. This is about people. Honest people and dishonest ones. Making this about gender is no better than the male oppression of centuries/millennia past that is still thrown in the face of upstanding, righteous males of today. What the hell did I do to deserve condemnation?! This type of slander and liable is no different than the apparently "unforgivable sins" that us honorable males of today have been forced to carry on our shoulders because our ancestors didn't have equality. Gee, thanks. If females want equality, they can start with the reverse-sexism that exists today.

(my white/male opinion from being burdened with the crimes of yore to which I was not a part of; reverse discrimination, two wrongs making a right, there is no fair way to "rectify" it and the slate should be wiped clean...THAT is equality)

Please, bury the hatchet, leave the dead horse alone, and stop placing blame for crap I didn't do in my lap because you feel some a-hole guy you encountered represents all men.

/fuming

[dingbat]

i think a lot of these women are just plain miserable because they have failed relationships behind them.. haven't moved on, haven't accepted that they and their ex's just weren't meant to be together... and are on a crusade of proving blame on men.

i also think some of it is a reflection of their expectations of relationships, in particular the examples set by their own parents. my parents were traditional in that my father worked, full time and very hard, my mum brought up us kids, ran the house, shopped, prepared & cooked fresh food every day, did all the 'womanly' things - but it was a completely equal relationship because they each brought their own skills to the family, all of equal importance and decisions were always made together.

all i ever wanted from a relationship was to be loved for who i am, and to feel that things were equal with a partner. i would hate to be dominated, controlled, and hate to feel i was viewed that way by my partner. it took a couple of major failed relationships to find what i was looking for - but i have now, and it's perfect. but despite my rotten experiences with men in the past, i am no man-hater - i accepted that i made poor choices, didn't listen to my gut feelings, and in that way i was as much to blame for it not working out as they were. there is good and bad in either sex, and i agree with you Benson, when i see people spouting prejudism towards a whole sect of people like this, it gets me on my soapbox too!

[Fog Ducker]

I also agree 1000%!
The problem I see is that people arent as smart and self aware as you are Dingbat. Most people just want someone else to blame. That bring up a whole other can of worms too, look at everything in the world, no one can accept blame for their own mistakes. "Oh Im too dumb to know that the coffee I just bought is going to be hot when I spill it on myself. So Im going to sue because they didnt tell me!" Its absolutely rediculous the way the world is.

Sorry to be off on a side track but I believe its all related, the same people making said lawsuits, are the ones screeming for equality. Like you Ding I grew up in the same atmosphere. Everthing was equal, and that was agreed upon before. But my difference is when I was 15 my mom started to hang out with a couple of ladies in town who were know as the "womens rights" type, and everything went sour. Not long after my mom was moving into another bedroom and then out, and serving my dad with the papers. My mom said it was all because she was "not being treated right." My dad said he has no idea what happened except that "she must have lost it." Now it has been a good 13 years since then and since my mom has agreed that there was actually nothing wrong, and it was all the influence of these other women, who thought that she shouldnt be being opressed like that, and "made to be a house wife." Even though it was what she had signed up for.

So I have some very personal reasons to be against this type of movement. If I was about to start a family and my wife was making more, dam right I would be a Mr. Mom, there is nothing wrong with that. I have a buddy in that exact situation right now, and he is happy with it.

When it comes down to it some people are just F'd!

/my rant

[beth]

Unfortunately there are some women who have been brought up to hate men by their mothers, who in turn were brought up by their mother to... Pedagogic upbringing at it's finest.

My mother hated men, gawd knows why she got together with my father... well actually I do know - he was a meal ticket away from her parents. I do know my sister made horrendously bad choices in her boyfriends and husbands, and her kid... "kid"! I still think of her a kid/teenager but she's a mother herself with 3 children! has made seemingly poor choices as I think they are all by different fathers. You really don't want to know how I've been screwed by it/mother as well.

These things are handed down through the generations. Some people are able to break the cycle, defy the psychologists, but I think it takes education. And there in lays some more problems because certainly in my home/day girls education was not seen as important as boys. Boys were expected to do the free thinking thing, girls were meant to get on with learning how to cook, wash, and shut TFU... - actually not quite true, as my father was pretty good at teaching me and my sister to maintain our own pushbikes/mopeds/motorcycles/cars/etc.

It (pedagogic upbringing - teaching handed down through the generations), probably, is also the reason that a new manager coming into a company I worked for openly said to me that the last female software engineer he had working for him was useless and had 4 days off every month. As if he expected me to be useless, and would have time off every month because for my period, simply because I am female. Cant remember what I said to him exactly as I was so shocked, but I kind of shot him down in flames. I should have stopped the meeting and reported him. I didn't stay much longer there anyway - I walked out for other reasons.

Ah well, I'm in danger of ranting off at a tangent. It is all linked.

[Jettalady]

Hey I joke around about being a "man hater " at times, and I was cheated on... so yes, but I now blame myself for picking them in the first place. Having said that, that generalizes alot of "men" but women do it too, they could be more crafty lol.. kidding Benson. I dispise anyone who cheats, "Tiger" was my most respected of an athlete or golfer, but when someone's morals go down the hole, I just put it down to insecurities, lack of values. I found a perfect man but took alot of toads to get to the Prince!

Dont worry Benson you are one of the good guys!

[shazamataz]

I agree that 'man-haters' just don't want to take responsibility for their own decisions. It is not fair to put all men in the same category. Yes, many men cheat, but many women also do, I expect one is as bad as the other.
My latest relationship experience was a particularly bad one, and it was definately his doing and not mine (tho I do take the blame for much of the failings of other relationships in the past!). My fault in this one was to hold on to someone who was no good. Nothing to do with his gender, he just wasn't any good to have a relationship with. I chose him, I already kinda knew what he was like, but I got involved anyway.
So, I am definately 'off' men at the moment, but that's not because I don't like them or think they are all b@@tards. I just haven't recovered enough to get back out there.

[farm]

I'm an x-wife hater! Well, just mine.

[Peaches]

I'm so not a man hater that I can't even hate my X when I *should*. Benson - people are screwed up, for oh so many reasons. And you know what they say about opinions, they are like @ssh!les and everybody's got 'em. Sometimes it just isn't worth wasting your mental energy (no matter how VAST it is ) on people like that (oops - did I just generalize!).

[imisspopcorn]

I personally hate how inept and downright stupid men are portrayed through advertising.....I can't believe men stand for it. If women were made to look stupid or poked fun at in the same way, there would be such an outcry of discrimination.....Even if it's for a silly joke, it is so pervasive. I don't know why you guys don't cry foul.

[BWS1982]

Originally Posted by imisspopcorn

I personally hate how inept and downright stupid men are portrayed through advertising.....I can't believe men stand for it. If women were made to look stupid or poked fun at in the same way, there would be such an outcry of discrimination.....Even if it's for a silly joke, it is so pervasive. I don't know why you guys don't cry foul.

I don't, but men aren't supposed to cry, even if it's to cry foul.

Well, I guess some men must ignore it, or it wouldn't persist.

If I speak up about that type of marketing or portrayal or stereotype, I usually get "oh, it's just a joke". I suppose it's supposed to be "okay" because of "the crap our grandpa's grandpas did/said"..... but you know if they did this rehash in a butter or biscuit commercial, there would be pandemonium:



I don't condone it either way after a certain extent, but it also depends on the context, material, audience, undertone and intent.

Thanks for chiming in everyone, I was just venting like I said. One of the biggest pet peeves is the hypocrisy of "equality seekers" and how they feel the tables need to turn for it for some reason, and I can't stand it when specific women (or others) say it's for advocacy or "women's rights/power" when really they're "feminazi's" and seeking revenge, wrath and supremacy.

[beth]

Originally Posted by BWS1982

reason, and I can't stand it when specific women (or others) say it's for advocacy or "women's rights/power" when really they're "feminazi's" and seeking revenge, wrath and supremacy.

OTOH, Benson, I can see where they are coming from: when you've had years of repression there is a tendency to go overboard when you see a chink in the armour. Typically my salary has been 5 to 15k lower for doing the exact same job, year in year out... No reason given, no negotiation. Occasionally I've been given large pay rises to cover huge discrepancies, but it did little to compensate, just enough to stop me leaving. Who wouldn't get mad at that?

[BWS1982]

Originally Posted by beth

OTOH, Benson, I can see where they are coming from: when you've had years of repression there is a tendency to go overboard when you see a chink in the armour. Typically my salary has been 5 to 15k lower for doing the exact same job, year in year out... No reason given, no negotiation. Occasionally I've been given large pay rises to cover huge discrepancies, but it did little to compensate, just enough to stop me leaving. Who wouldn't get mad at that?

I would get mad at that too.

When I was working at Jewel (grocery store) the female managers there made the guys ALWAYS do about 80% of the shopping carts, all the heavy lifting and carrying, everything, and then when we'd complain they'd bring up the obvious fact that physiology dictates that males are more capable (some girls said they can't lift the 50lb salt blocks, which is fine)...We said that's fine, but they should be given some other special duty then, as we saw it not fair that they were concurrently doing very non-strenuous labor instead (while we were doing strenuous labor). When it's a physical job, and a male has 1.25 times the output, I understand if both workers are putting in "100% effort" and pushing THEIR bodies, but that 1.25 factor will still anger a guy if the girls are standing around gabbing and coming nowhere near "100% effort" while many guys were approaching or meeting it. It wasn't reverse sexism, it WAS sexism.

It's a complex concept, if a male at a logging job is getting 50% more work done because of body composition (gender), then on paper, ignoring everything else, he should be making more money than a female doing that same job. But it's not that simple, as both have certain capacities, and if both are fulfilling those capacities to the best they can, both people should be paid on the premise that both are working to 100% of what THEY can. The pay SHOULD be based on if they are outputting what THEIR body can allow. If a weaker guy was being outdone by a female (it happens), but he's pushing himself, same thing, he should still be given the same pay. Pay on physical jobs should be on effort, not output, in that regard. But then again, there has to be a certain (and fair) expectation by some employers that a minimum output will be met, otherwise it's probably not a fit for some people, man or woman. As I said it's complicated and there are many variables.

When it comes to mental capacity or output (like my job), like a sales job with commission, bonuses, etc..., THEN performance should be the factor.

One problem I have though, is that just for being born a male, I have to pay more insurance for a car, because the statistics show I'm "more prone" to accidents (purportedly, according to the BS prevailing rationale)....BUT, then if "statistics" are what prices or pay is based on, we enter a WHOLE other territory where it gets even muddier, because that is now predicated SOLELY on gender, and not "capacity"...See the exception? That isn't fair either. It should be on history and aptitude, NOT GENDER.

I just want sheer, unadulterated equality, just like giving you the same pay if you're doing the same thing with the same results.

But I doubt "sheer, unadulterated equality" will ever come to fruition, because men and women are different, and it's society and humanity that's the problem. With the evolution banking on that, it's bound for futility (have you seen "society"? )

[CrohnieCarolyn]

One of my favorite quotes....

Because women's work is never done and is underpaid or unpaid or boring or repetitious and we're the first to get fired and what we look like is more important that what we do and if we get raped its our fault and if we get beaten we must have provoked it and if we raise our voices we're nagging bitches and if we enjoy sex we're nymphos and if we don't we're frigid and if we love women it's because we cant' get a "real" man and if we ask our doctor too many questions we're neurotic and/or pushy and if we expect childcare we're selfish and if we stand up for our rights we're aggressive and "unfeminine" and if we don't we're typical weak females and if we want to get married we're out to trap a man and if we don't we're unnatural and because we still can't get an adequate safe contraceptive but men can walk on the moon and if we can't cope or don't want a pregnancy we're made to feel guilty about abortion and...for lots of other reasons we are part of the women's liberation movement....

"Femnazi" and PROUD of it!

[DanSJVDavis]

Hrmm...down this road lies a slippery slope...

*walks off with fingers in ears and shouting LALALALA!*

[katiesue1506]

Because women's work is never done and is underpaid or unpaid or boring or repetitious and we're the first to get fired and what we look like is more important that what we do and if we get raped its our fault and if we get beaten we must have provoked it and if we raise our voices we're nagging bitches and if we enjoy sex we're nymphos and if we don't we're frigid and if we love women it's because we cant' get a "real" man and if we ask our doctor too many questions we're neurotic and/or pushy and if we expect childcare we're selfish and if we stand up for our rights we're aggressive and "unfeminine" and if we don't we're typical weak females and if we want to get married we're out to trap a man and if we don't we're unnatural and because we still can't get an adequate safe contraceptive but men can walk on the moon and if we can't cope or don't want a pregnancy we're made to feel guilty about abortion and...for lots of other reasons we are part of the women's liberation movement....

This quote angers me. It just seems so bitter and angry and it makes me feel that way.

It's completely false and VERY generalized. It's 2009, not 1953.

I'm regulating myself here because this is a very very very hot hot button for me in my life.

All I can say is that NO ONE is better than ANYONE else, because we are all in the same world trying to make a living. But I can also say that if you WANT to get ahead in life and YOU WANT people to see what you're worth, then work your ass off and do it. People WILL notice and you WILL get whats coming to you. (this isn't directed towards anyone... just in general)

My last thing is:

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent. Ms. Roosevelt

[BWS1982]

Originally Posted by CrohnieCarolyn

"Femnazi" and PROUD of it!

Well, I just want to clarify that that term was/is designated for women who think they're better than men, not for ones who advocate equal rights or empowerment. There are a select few who feel that way, that men are scum and only necessary for procreation. What everyone should seek is equality, not superiority. There is no need or justification for any revenge, either, as a stand-alone sentiment or as a means to "define" or "bring about" equality. A woman who is for women's rights is not the same thing as a "feminazi" ...the term "nazi" was put in (I don't know where the term originates) to construe connotations of superiority. Nobody should seek that.

I do not know where the quote you have comes from, but as a man who loves women-- my mom, my fiance, my aunts, my late grandma's, my cousins, my to-be mother/sister-in-laws, my female friends-- I am glad that mentality is as much antiquated and archaic as it has ever been. That line of thinking, that "lose-lose" situation women were in, was uncalled for, but it's also thankfully on the brink of extinction. However, if you happen to be in an environment where it is still alive, and it still prevails or dictates, leave that environment, as it's of no use to the betterment of humanity nor yourself.

[CrohnieCarolyn]

Originally Posted by beth

OTOH, Benson, I can see where they are coming from: when you've had years of repression there is a tendency to go overboard when you see a chink in the armour. Typically my salary has been 5 to 15k lower for doing the exact same job, year in year out... No reason given, no negotiation. Occasionally I've been given large pay rises to cover huge discrepancies, but it did little to compensate, just enough to stop me leaving. Who wouldn't get mad at that?

AND women STILL make 70 cents for every dollar men make! White males have no clue what oppression is all about 'cause they have never had to face any as a group -

[CrohnieCarolyn]

Originally Posted by katiesue1506

This quote angers me. It just seems so bitter and angry and it makes me feel that way.

It's completely false and VERY generalized. It's 2009, not 1953.

I'm regulating myself here because this is a very very very hot hot button for me in my life.

All I can say is that NO ONE is better than ANYONE else, because we are all in the same world trying to make a living. But I can also say that if you WANT to get ahead in life and YOU WANT people to see what you're worth, then work your ass off and do it. People WILL notice and you WILL get whats coming to you. (this isn't directed towards anyone... just in general)

My last thing is:

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent. Ms. Roosevelt

HA! Ms. Roosevelt was one of the BEST feminists of all time! And would have totally agreed with the above quote and fought for women's rights and other oppressed groups her whole life - read some history!

[katiesue1506]

Eleanor Roosevelt WAS one of the leading feminists of our time, which is why I thought it appropriate to quote her. She was a positive and progressive feminist though, she still had poise and grace.

She was not bitter or angry. And she did not put anyone else down.

Did you know she opposed the Equal Rights Amendment because she thought it would hurt women? She fought for equal rights skillfully and delicately. She didn't stomp in with a sledge hammer and smack the hands of every white man in the room.

Yeah that 70 (its actually 75 cents) cents on the dollar is coming from studies that don't control for children. It doesn't control for how the labor markets deal with children. Women are 100% more likely to take pregnancy leave than men. Also, women's work schedules are often more restricted by that of a child and needing to take care of them. Therefore they take part time jobs or jobs with flexible schedules that pay less. Women also tend to work smaller stints of time within a company. Therefore they don't see the same wage growth as men do. Lastly, women are much less likely to hold a post graduate degree than men.

If you have a child, all else equal, a man will be able to work more hours, for more years than a woman.

I've never had to face any oppression in my life, and I'm willing to bet that no one born after 1980 has. It just really irks me that white men in my generation get treated like they are scums of the earth because of the past. It's not fair. Why can America not have a dynamic brain and change their thoughts when circumstances change? It's outdated beliefs and grudges that hold us back as a country.

If we wanna talk discrimination here, then let's talk about how ethnic groups don't make nearly as much as white people. THATS inequality.

[BWS1982]

Originally Posted by CrohnieCarolyn

White males have no clue what oppression is all about 'cause they have never had to face any as a group -

Carolyn, I feel it is grossly generalizing to make a blanket statement such as that, as there is no way you can speak for what every white male has gone through. I also think the mere fact of being born male and white causes inherent oppression in and of itself sometimes. White males can belong to other groups as well, such as homosexuals, disabled people, religious sects, etc...so I do not agree with your statement. Even Crohn's and IBD has caused acts of prejudice for some of us.

I can see this is a passionate subject for you, and I'm sorry if you've ever been oppressed, treated with malice, or relegated to unfair treatment due to gender, but I genuinely feel any such acts were done by individuals and not a group as a collective decision. Please keep that perspective in mind.