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01-04-2010, 01:00 AM   #1
ChronsSUCKS
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Milk - is it evil?

I am undecided about milk. When i was young i was always told milk is the best! Drink milk ALL the time, it makes you strong. And your skeleton of course gets strong.

But then i heard that human bodies are not meant to drink milk. See the theory is that humans should not drink milk from other animals, its bad for us. Our body cant properly digest it. And we have only been using dairy for a short time evolution-wise, so its even worse because of that.

I drank huge amounts of milk when i was a kid. Now i drink milk sometimes,, but i do get lots of other dairy such as cottagecheese (wich is loaded with proteine)
I THINK that drinking too much milk did make me have pain more often. However i have no way to know that for sure, other than my own memory.

Also i heard milk causes prostate CANCER alot, wich is a major reason why i would stay away from it.
01-04-2010, 01:45 AM   #2
imisspopcorn
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Until there is more evidence, I make my kids drink milk with their meals....It doesn't bother me to drink it either....I think it is a personal choice.
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01-04-2010, 02:44 AM   #3
D Bergy
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You might want to read this.

http://www.mad-cow.org/00/paraTB.html

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01-04-2010, 03:20 AM   #4
imisspopcorn
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I have seen all the MAP/ Johnes stuff too....It doesn't bother me enough to change my family's milk drinking habits.
01-04-2010, 03:23 AM   #5
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I am thinking that if we obeyed all of the stuff about what isn't safe to eat, we wouldn't eat anything at all!
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01-04-2010, 03:44 AM   #6
Mazen
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Well, the only thing my doctor told me to avoid (in addition to smoking and alcohol) was milk and raw vegetables.

If you are afraid of MAP, and you can tolerate milk, you can drink UHT milk as it has been processed at much higher temperature than pasturized milk.

Also goat milk is supposed to be easier to digest than cow milk, as it it closer to human milk.
01-04-2010, 04:16 AM   #7
Mazen
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Dan. in the link you put they mention the below:

"Drinking milk from cows infected with Johne's disease is how people are exposed to paratuberculosis. Based on DNA fingerprinting techniques, there are two strains of MAP: one that affects cattle, and one that affects goats and sheep. All human isolates so far have been of bovine origin,[180] implicating milk.[181] Milk is the "logical" focus of exposure[182] because cows with Johne's disease secrete paraTB abundantly in their milk.[183] Even sub-clinical cows--those that are infected but appear perfectly normal--shed paraTB bacteria into their milk.[184] Although these bacteria are found free-floating in milk, their transmission may be facilitated by their presence inside pus cells.[185] This is a particular problem in the United States, as we have the highest permitted upper limit of milk pus cell concentration in the world--almost twice the international standard of allowable pus cells.[186] By US federal law, Grade A milk is allowed to have over a drop of pus per glass of milk.[187] These pus cells may facilitate the transmission of paraTB.[188] "


Does this mean that MAP is only found in cow milk and not goat or sheep milk??
01-04-2010, 08:28 AM   #8
Peaches
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Dan - that link and the attached website hasn't been updated in almost a DECADE. Do you have any new information on this? I am always skeptical of websites like that. Not that what is in the article isn't widely known already.....just wish it looked more widely endorsed by the scientific community you know?
01-04-2010, 10:48 AM   #9
HealthyforYears
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I tend to avoid things that hurt me. It's easy to test, just drink a glass of milk on an empty stomach and wait for the results. If it causes you pain and you have to go to the bathroom shortly thereafter, then try to avoid it in the future or have it in moderation (in tea, coffee. etc).

Goat milk is usually easier to digest. For cheeses, also try goat or sheep.

If you are a cereal eater and you find the milk hurts you, I also suggest Soy Milk or Almond milk.

Everyone is different, so pin point the things that hurt you and avoid them. That's what I do and I live pain free.

Good luck!
01-04-2010, 12:18 PM   #10
D Bergy
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I do not know if Goat Milk or other Milk can have MAP or not.

I think Mazen was the person who posted the information on how farms and the water from them carry the bacteria around, and how people on the farm can have an inborn immunity to the MAP bacteria. There has been other research since then supporting a connection between Crohn's and MAP.

I do not think the article itself has been updated since.

I actually do not think the MAP bacteria is the cause of Crohn's, but I do believe it causes symptoms of the disease. Some may not make that distinction, but it is important to treat the cause, to prevent other autoimmune conditions.

I lean more toward the XMRV virus being the cause of the immune dysfunction, although that is a very tenetive hypothesis at this point. I am only going by my own experimentation, and subjective results. This hypothesis needs to be pursued by real researchers.

Dan
01-04-2010, 05:26 PM   #11
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The main thing in milk that is evil is Lactose. That's why smart balance and lactaid are out. They basically have chemicals in them that help you digest the lactose properly. That's also why yogurt is ok even though it's dairy. The way yogurt works is that the bacteria in it actually helps turn the lactose into lactic acid... or lactic something, and actually helps digest it for you.

Point being, lactose is the bad stuff. I mean, you get vitamin D and calcium from milk, but if you are taking supplements you can avoid it all together. When I was at my worst I avoided anything with the words lactose, dairy, milk, butter, cheese, or whey, and I ended up being much less gassy and much better off.
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01-04-2010, 05:31 PM   #12
Guestly
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Milk is evil FOR ME..... can't comment for anyone else...

I went off milk after looking for a dairy alternative for my son who needed to be lactose free, I came upon a Vegan Society article which just put me off... so then I didn't have any milk for a few weeks because I kept thinking about what I had read.... then one evening my husband cracked open the icecream and I tucked in completely forgetting my new found moral high ground... dear god was I sick.... since then I haven't been able to touch any milk products at all... it's so bad even chocolate makes me vomit now...

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01-04-2010, 06:27 PM   #13
MINI Cooper
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Another shout out for Goat Milk here. I also heard it was easier to digest,
and since I have switched, (a year now) my tummy has been happier.
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01-04-2010, 06:34 PM   #14
DanSJVDavis
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How is goat milk for baking?

Edit:
See, I'm a cook. There's a lot of uses for milk in various cooking practices that frankly, just can't be given up. Ever tried to make a milkless baked good? And I'm an artist already, I don't need to start growing teets (any more than I already have anyway) and start bawling at the drop of a hat because I'm using too much soy milk (aside the fact that I really don't like the flavor of soy milk). And I'm pretty sure soy milk alfredo would just be vile. Tear out my tongue now because I won't need them taste buds anymore.

Plus, I don't really drink a lot of milk, but I like cheese and the entire Davis line (this part of that line anyway) are ice cream fiends. I love my ice cream. Love frozen custard even moreso. I won't be giving up either one any time soon. I'll hold onto my last enjoyments tooth and claw for as long as I can. I don't have major issues with my guts with milk or dairy unless I haven't had it in a while. Then I'll get lactose intolerance-like symptoms for a while till my body gets used to it again.

I would honestly consider trying to cook with goat milk and possibly even work it into an ice cream. I have a feeling it would have a flavor reminiscent of froyo as an ice cream. I've had goat's milk cheese, which I kinda like.
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Last edited by DanSJVDavis; 01-04-2010 at 06:47 PM.
01-04-2010, 07:22 PM   #15
D Bergy
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I can eat Cheese without any problem, but Milk, Ice Cream, and other milk based products do not digest well for me. This is true whether I have symptoms or not.

I think there is an inability to digest Milk, that is a separate problem from any MAP bacteria present. I do not think the MAP bacteria is harmful to most people, but if you have the immune dysfunction, then it can be.

I think Lactose intolerance is pretty common.

Dan
01-04-2010, 07:41 PM   #16
Peaches
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yes...everything Dan said :O) I do ok with cheese for the most part as well.....it's dairy in general that I have the problem with and I believe it is only when I have active disease going on.
01-04-2010, 07:42 PM   #17
imisspopcorn
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I just thought I'd throw this out there...People can be allergic to the protien in milk..Caesin or whey. It can result in eczema/atopic dermatitis, respiratory issues...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milk_allergy
01-04-2010, 10:49 PM   #18
wqcoleman
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lactose is death for crohn's patients.. it contains too many bacteria that make our colon do evil things. I stay away from milk. The only dairy product that I use is a pinch of half/half in my coffee in the morning, only because I hate black coffee. If they told me I couldn't drink any milk whatsoever, I would quit coffee.

Butter is ok, since the lactose is eaten off by the culturing process. Margarine is bad for us, since it contains more crap then butter.

BTW, this is my choice, not everyone agrees with this diet... but I'm trying it like I was back at Parris Island, I question nothing, and just do.
01-05-2010, 02:39 AM   #19
JMitch
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It all depends. One day milk will really mess me up and I'll lay off it for a while and I'll be good for a few weeks and then back to it messing me up. I tried Soy, but I don't prefer it.
01-05-2010, 05:24 AM   #20
Mazen
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Here is the link again to the latest MAP research. I agree with Dan in that it may not be the cause of Crohn's, but a contributing factor for sure. I personally cannot handle milk and cheese well. But I can eat plain yoghurt with no problems. To avoid MAP, I try my best to eat homemade yoghurt prepared with UHT milk, and eat grilled dry yoghurt sandwiches.

http://www.crohnsforum.com/showthread.php?t=8376

Last edited by Mazen; 01-05-2010 at 05:41 AM.
01-05-2010, 02:58 PM   #21
CrohnsHobo
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I don't drink milk anymore. Even lactose free milk gives me problems.
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01-06-2010, 10:01 AM   #22
+ve19
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I know a woman who was cured from pancreatic cancer (in a late stage, at one point she was told the doctors expected her to only have 6 months left) through dieting and homoeopathy (and other natural, alternative medicines) and no sergery or chemotherapy (believe it or not!!) and she would not drink even one drop of milk or any diary products. She wouldnt even have soup which might have traces of diary.
So although i dont have any actual scientific proof, i would believe that a diet without/ with as little as possible lactose would benefit us. Milk generally doesnt really affect me but it gives my mother stomach aches sometimes and theres nothing even wrong with her digestive system.

Also just wondering, is it true that Soy milk can get toxic is you completely replace diary milk with soy milk? I heard this somewhere and always wondered if its true..
01-06-2010, 12:33 PM   #23
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I love milk. Drink about a gallon a week. No problems thus far that have been proven.
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01-06-2010, 02:21 PM   #24
themuse
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Most adults lose the ability to digest milk. It is an enzyme present in infants due to the breast feeding need. An evolutionary process I guess. I try to steer clear from milk, and milk products. My baby cousin 7mnths was not growing and had bad skin rash, they discovered that he was allergic to the Milk protein which is different from lactose intolerance, which is an allergy to the milk sugar.
01-06-2010, 06:31 PM   #25
pewpewlasers
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I had lactose intolerance when I was a kid. I was told that one day it just went away. Sometimes it seems fine but other times dairy bothers me. I drink milk in moderation and usually only have a glass with Oreos or when I have heartburn.
01-07-2010, 02:46 AM   #26
BWS1982
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CrohnsHobo said:
I don't drink milk anymore. Even lactose free milk gives me problems.
That would be because they market it as "lactose free" and it, in fact, only adds an artificial replication of Lactase, the enzyme that digests it. Lactaid is a milk that is like normal milk, but with the enzyme that is supposed to nullify the lactose, so it's not literally "lactose free" but contains an additive meant to counter the lactose in the gut..............it's like adding insulin to your soda drinks.
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01-10-2010, 07:12 PM   #27
Ms Cordelia
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Yes. It is evil.
01-10-2010, 10:05 PM   #28
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Peaches said:
yes...everything Dan said :O) I do ok with cheese for the most part as well.....it's dairy in general that I have the problem with and I believe it is only when I have active disease going on.

Old style cheddar is ok most of the time (hit or miss) but any other dairy the pain starts. But yogurt is ok.
01-10-2010, 10:46 PM   #29
Peaches
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BWS1982 said:
it's like adding insulin to your soda drinks.
Damn Benson - I think you are ON to somethin' there!!! God help us all if we ever get to that day :O)
01-11-2010, 11:55 AM   #30
Steve
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I haven't had any issues with milk or milk products thus far. In fact i was told that milk products is good for the stomach because it coats it, whatever that means. That being the case, i have been having a yogurt each day from breakfast for a past few months and i havent had a problem (thats besides for the milk in my coffee) I guess its each for their own on this one TOO!!!
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