Milk - is it evil?

I am undecided about milk. When i was young i was always told milk is the best! Drink milk ALL the time, it makes you strong. And your skeleton of course gets strong.

But then i heard that human bodies are not meant to drink milk. See the theory is that humans should not drink milk from other animals, its bad for us. Our body cant properly digest it. And we have only been using dairy for a short time evolution-wise, so its even worse because of that.

I drank huge amounts of milk when i was a kid. Now i drink milk sometimes,, but i do get lots of other dairy such as cottagecheese (wich is loaded with proteine)
I THINK that drinking too much milk did make me have pain more often. However i have no way to know that for sure, other than my own memory.

Also i heard milk causes prostate CANCER alot, wich is a major reason why i would stay away from it.

Until there is more evidence, I make my kids drink milk with their meals....It doesn't bother me to drink it either....I think it is a personal choice.

You might want to read this.

http://www.mad-cow.org/00/paraTB.html

Dan

I have seen all the MAP/ Johnes stuff too....It doesn't bother me enough to change my family's milk drinking habits.

I am thinking that if we obeyed all of the stuff about what isn't safe to eat, we wouldn't eat anything at all!

Well, the only thing my doctor told me to avoid (in addition to smoking and alcohol) was milk and raw vegetables.

If you are afraid of MAP, and you can tolerate milk, you can drink UHT milk as it has been processed at much higher temperature than pasturized milk.

Also goat milk is supposed to be easier to digest than cow milk, as it it closer to human milk.

Dan. in the link you put they mention the below:

"Drinking milk from cows infected with Johne's disease is how people are exposed to paratuberculosis. Based on DNA fingerprinting techniques, there are two strains of MAP: one that affects cattle, and one that affects goats and sheep. All human isolates so far have been of bovine origin,[180] implicating milk.[181] Milk is the "logical" focus of exposure[182] because cows with Johne's disease secrete paraTB abundantly in their milk.[183] Even sub-clinical cows--those that are infected but appear perfectly normal--shed paraTB bacteria into their milk.[184] Although these bacteria are found free-floating in milk, their transmission may be facilitated by their presence inside pus cells.[185] This is a particular problem in the United States, as we have the highest permitted upper limit of milk pus cell concentration in the world--almost twice the international standard of allowable pus cells.[186] By US federal law, Grade A milk is allowed to have over a drop of pus per glass of milk.[187] These pus cells may facilitate the transmission of paraTB.[188] "


Does this mean that MAP is only found in cow milk and not goat or sheep milk??

Dan - that link and the attached website hasn't been updated in almost a DECADE. Do you have any new information on this? I am always skeptical of websites like that. Not that what is in the article isn't widely known already.....just wish it looked more widely endorsed by the scientific community you know?

Dairy in moderation

I tend to avoid things that hurt me. It's easy to test, just drink a glass of milk on an empty stomach and wait for the results. If it causes you pain and you have to go to the bathroom shortly thereafter, then try to avoid it in the future or have it in moderation (in tea, coffee. etc).

Goat milk is usually easier to digest. For cheeses, also try goat or sheep.

If you are a cereal eater and you find the milk hurts you, I also suggest Soy Milk or Almond milk.

Everyone is different, so pin point the things that hurt you and avoid them. That's what I do and I live pain free.

Good luck!

I do not know if Goat Milk or other Milk can have MAP or not.

I think Mazen was the person who posted the information on how farms and the water from them carry the bacteria around, and how people on the farm can have an inborn immunity to the MAP bacteria. There has been other research since then supporting a connection between Crohn's and MAP.

I do not think the article itself has been updated since.

I actually do not think the MAP bacteria is the cause of Crohn's, but I do believe it causes symptoms of the disease. Some may not make that distinction, but it is important to treat the cause, to prevent other autoimmune conditions.

I lean more toward the XMRV virus being the cause of the immune dysfunction, although that is a very tenetive hypothesis at this point. I am only going by my own experimentation, and subjective results. This hypothesis needs to be pursued by real researchers.

Dan

The main thing in milk that is evil is Lactose. That's why smart balance and lactaid are out. They basically have chemicals in them that help you digest the lactose properly. That's also why yogurt is ok even though it's dairy. The way yogurt works is that the bacteria in it actually helps turn the lactose into lactic acid... or lactic something, and actually helps digest it for you.

Point being, lactose is the bad stuff. I mean, you get vitamin D and calcium from milk, but if you are taking supplements you can avoid it all together. When I was at my worst I avoided anything with the words lactose, dairy, milk, butter, cheese, or whey, and I ended up being much less gassy and much better off.

Milk is evil FOR ME..... can't comment for anyone else...

I went off milk after looking for a dairy alternative for my son who needed to be lactose free, I came upon a Vegan Society article which just put me off... so then I didn't have any milk for a few weeks because I kept thinking about what I had read.... then one evening my husband cracked open the icecream and I tucked in completely forgetting my new found moral high ground... dear god was I sick.... since then I haven't been able to touch any milk products at all... it's so bad even chocolate makes me vomit now...

Lishyloo

Another shout out for Goat Milk here. I also heard it was easier to digest,
and since I have switched, (a year now) my tummy has been happier.

How is goat milk for baking?

Edit:
See, I'm a cook. There's a lot of uses for milk in various cooking practices that frankly, just can't be given up. Ever tried to make a milkless baked good? And I'm an artist already, I don't need to start growing teets (any more than I already have anyway) and start bawling at the drop of a hat because I'm using too much soy milk (aside the fact that I really don't like the flavor of soy milk). And I'm pretty sure soy milk alfredo would just be vile. Tear out my tongue now because I won't need them taste buds anymore.

Plus, I don't really drink a lot of milk, but I like cheese and the entire Davis line (this part of that line anyway) are ice cream fiends. I love my ice cream. Love frozen custard even moreso. I won't be giving up either one any time soon. I'll hold onto my last enjoyments tooth and claw for as long as I can. I don't have major issues with my guts with milk or dairy unless I haven't had it in a while. Then I'll get lactose intolerance-like symptoms for a while till my body gets used to it again.

I would honestly consider trying to cook with goat milk and possibly even work it into an ice cream. I have a feeling it would have a flavor reminiscent of froyo as an ice cream. I've had goat's milk cheese, which I kinda like.

I can eat Cheese without any problem, but Milk, Ice Cream, and other milk based products do not digest well for me. This is true whether I have symptoms or not.

I think there is an inability to digest Milk, that is a separate problem from any MAP bacteria present. I do not think the MAP bacteria is harmful to most people, but if you have the immune dysfunction, then it can be.

I think Lactose intolerance is pretty common.

Dan

yes...everything Dan said :O) I do ok with cheese for the most part as well.....it's dairy in general that I have the problem with and I believe it is only when I have active disease going on.

I just thought I'd throw this out there...People can be allergic to the protien in milk..Caesin or whey. It can result in eczema/atopic dermatitis, respiratory issues...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milk_allergy

lactose is death for crohn's patients.. it contains too many bacteria that make our colon do evil things. I stay away from milk. The only dairy product that I use is a pinch of half/half in my coffee in the morning, only because I hate black coffee. If they told me I couldn't drink any milk whatsoever, I would quit coffee.

Butter is ok, since the lactose is eaten off by the culturing process. Margarine is bad for us, since it contains more crap then butter.

BTW, this is my choice, not everyone agrees with this diet... but I'm trying it like I was back at Parris Island, I question nothing, and just do.

It all depends. One day milk will really mess me up and I'll lay off it for a while and I'll be good for a few weeks and then back to it messing me up. I tried Soy, but I don't prefer it.

Here is the link again to the latest MAP research. I agree with Dan in that it may not be the cause of Crohn's, but a contributing factor for sure. I personally cannot handle milk and cheese well. But I can eat plain yoghurt with no problems. To avoid MAP, I try my best to eat homemade yoghurt prepared with UHT milk, and eat grilled dry yoghurt sandwiches.

http://www.crohnsforum.com/showthread.php?t=8376

I don't drink milk anymore. Even lactose free milk gives me problems.

I know a woman who was cured from pancreatic cancer (in a late stage, at one point she was told the doctors expected her to only have 6 months left) through dieting and homoeopathy (and other natural, alternative medicines) and no sergery or chemotherapy (believe it or not!!) and she would not drink even one drop of milk or any diary products. She wouldnt even have soup which might have traces of diary.
So although i dont have any actual scientific proof, i would believe that a diet without/ with as little as possible lactose would benefit us. Milk generally doesnt really affect me but it gives my mother stomach aches sometimes and theres nothing even wrong with her digestive system.

Also just wondering, is it true that Soy milk can get toxic is you completely replace diary milk with soy milk? I heard this somewhere and always wondered if its true..

I love milk. Drink about a gallon a week. No problems thus far that have been proven.

Most adults lose the ability to digest milk. It is an enzyme present in infants due to the breast feeding need. An evolutionary process I guess. I try to steer clear from milk, and milk products. My baby cousin 7mnths was not growing and had bad skin rash, they discovered that he was allergic to the Milk protein which is different from lactose intolerance, which is an allergy to the milk sugar.

I had lactose intolerance when I was a kid. I was told that one day it just went away. Sometimes it seems fine but other times dairy bothers me. I drink milk in moderation and usually only have a glass with Oreos or when I have heartburn.

CrohnsHobo said:

I don't drink milk anymore. Even lactose free milk gives me problems.

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That would be because they market it as "lactose free" and it, in fact, only adds an artificial replication of Lactase, the enzyme that digests it. Lactaid is a milk that is like normal milk, but with the enzyme that is supposed to nullify the lactose, so it's not literally "lactose free" but contains an additive meant to counter the lactose in the gut..............it's like adding insulin to your soda drinks.

Yes. It is evil.

Peaches said:

yes...everything Dan said :O) I do ok with cheese for the most part as well.....it's dairy in general that I have the problem with and I believe it is only when I have active disease going on.

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Old style cheddar is ok most of the time (hit or miss) but any other dairy the pain starts. But yogurt is ok.

BWS1982 said:

it's like adding insulin to your soda drinks.

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Damn Benson - I think you are ON to somethin' there!!! God help us all if we ever get to that day :O)

I haven't had any issues with milk or milk products thus far. In fact i was told that milk products is good for the stomach because it coats it, whatever that means. That being the case, i have been having a yogurt each day from breakfast for a past few months and i havent had a problem (thats besides for the milk in my coffee) I guess its each for their own on this one TOO!!!

I do well with yogurt, especially Greek Yogurt. I eat at least one with honey everyday, but Milk by itself ruins me. I do OK with most cheeses, but can't handle Ice Cream.

Im going to stay away from milk now. Most people here seem to do that

I stayed away from dairy for 20 of my 30ish years with Crohn's.

Last year, I started with Soy milk and Oats for breakfast... which I was really happy with. You get so hacked off giving foods up, it's nice to find something new and nutritious you can re-introduce.

Just recently, they have started selling Lactose free milk in my local supermarket (I live in Ireland) so I have switched to that. It hasn't had any noticable negative effects so I'm happy to keep going with it...

I can also tolerate Yoghurt no problem - and some cheeses. Ice Cream though is a complete no-no, even in times of manageable symptoms.

"Lactose intolerance is common in adults. It occurs more often in Native Americans and people of Asian, African, and South American descent than among people of European descent."

"Lactose intolerance occurs when the small intestine does not make enough of an enzyme called lactase. Your body needs lactase to break down, or digest, lactose."
http://www.webmd.com/digestive-disorders/tc/lactose-intolerance-topic-overview

I've never read anything that suggests that crohns is in anyway related to your ability to digest milk. I started having problems with milk as a kid, which is normal and asked my doctor if it was related to my crohns. He said no and that I'm most likely just lactose intolerant. The only things my doctors have tried to get me to avoid because of crohns are spicy or greasy foods, smoking cigarettes and drinking large amounts of alcohol.

I'm willing to deal with the feeling of swallowing broken glass if I can put away a sleeve of Oreos.

I agree, gotta have milk with the Oreos.....Oreos kick my butt too...Glutton for punishment I guess.

i was told by my gastro to avoid cow's milk...mainly not because of the lactose but because of its PROTEIN...the whey is the killer there. thats why some people still get pains when drinking lactose-free cow milk because you still got the protein.

fact: its takes 3 hours for cow's milk to digest and 8 hours to digest on a baby. It only takes 20 minutes to digest goat milk on an adult AND/OR a baby.

karma_hunden said:

i was told by my gastro to avoid cow's milk...mainly not because of the lactose but because of its PROTEIN...the whey is the killer there. thats why some people still get pains when drinking lactose-free cow milk because you still got the protein.

fact: its takes 3 hours for cow's milk to digest and 8 hours to digest on a baby. It only takes 20 minutes to digest goat milk on an adult AND/OR a baby.

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Sounds like the voice of reason to me. Especially given the fact that Human milk is actually higher in Lactose than cow milk.

Right now I stay away from milk. It is bad. Only baby cows should be drinking it.
I used to drink it a lot but sinced colitis, it makes me go a lot. Ensure Plus also makes me go a lot so no more of that.
I will miss yogurt, milk with cereal, but that's ok, I 'll eat cereal dry....

karma_hunden said:

i was told by my gastro to avoid cow's milk...mainly not because of the lactose but because of its PROTEIN...the whey is the killer there. thats why some people still get pains when drinking lactose-free cow milk because you still got the protein.

fact: its takes 3 hours for cow's milk to digest and 8 hours to digest on a baby. It only takes 20 minutes to digest goat milk on an adult AND/OR a baby.

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I notice whey protein is a no no. My friend pointed that out to me a week ago.

Also, Whey protein supplements I used to take once in awhile for 2 years while workingout, is very heavy on the stomach.
My friend seen whey protein on Ensure bottle and said nope, that's not good lol.

yep. i also used to take protein shakes...usually the first time you start they give you the worse farting episodes...very heavy on the stomach.

does anyone know the common symptoms of lactose or milk intolerance? can it cause lower abdo pain, without diarrhea? and what about bloating/gas?

thanks.

karma_hunden said:

i was told by my gastro to avoid cow's milk...mainly not because of the lactose but because of its PROTEIN...the whey is the killer there. thats why some people still get pains when drinking lactose-free cow milk because you still got the protein.

fact: its takes 3 hours for cow's milk to digest and 8 hours to digest on a baby. It only takes 20 minutes to digest goat milk on an adult AND/OR a baby.

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Cow milk protein consists of 80% casein and 20% whey, and whey is very quickly digested, so it's the casein that slows the digestion down in milk. Casein is also very prominent in cottage cheese.

There's no such thing as "lactose free" cow's milk, per se, in stores that I've seen or heard of, they actually just mix regular milk with lactase, which then in theory cancel each other out, so it is "lactose free" on paper but not in reality. Mixing in the enzyme in hopes that it cancels the sugar (lactose) is noble and sound in theory, but my guess is it doesn't always work.

If you still have problems with lactose free milk, it's likely because of the real lactose still in there, and the fact that the "canceling" isn't working optimally, or, perhaps you have issues with the casein or even the 20% whey?

dingbat said:

does anyone know the common symptoms of lactose or milk intolerance? can it cause lower abdo pain, without diarrhea? and what about bloating/gas?

thanks.

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It can cause any variation of gastrointestinal distress/discomfort, Ding, from what I understand, and affects people differently if they're intolerant. I don't know exactly what governs each reaction, though, but from what I understand, it varies, no differently than how Crohn's can vary or an intolerance to any other food in "normal" people can differ.

Hello Friends.
Milk is not a evil and a evil there are many reason.
if your age under 16 then milk is too good but after it not a good.
am I right?

I drink milk everyday and it doesn't upset my gut like other foods do...Definately greasy or fried is a no no and too spicy is out...but other than that I eat a normal diet and I KNOW that if I have imflammation ANYTHING I eat is going to protest - when there is little or no inflammation I can eat whatever I want - I don't think it is the food!!! I can have chinese food one night and be fine - the next time (and I think this is where I would have some sort of inflammation) my gut will say no way! I really don't think it is the food when I have eaten it before and not felt sick at all....Just my two cents worth...

I've been a huge drinker of milk all my life. No problems until I hit 40 and then all heck broke loose. I don't know if milk had anything to do with it, but I could drink a couple of litres a day quite easily. I was quite satisified with myself that I was making a healthy beverage choice, but now I'm not so sure.

Anyway, these days I avoid milk, except for kefir (like liquid yogurt), which I concoct myself from storebought milk (it's organic, but still processed, unfortunately), but someday...someday...I'll have my own little goat herd.

Can MAP be found in organic milk as well? After reading that article I'm thinking about never buying cow's milk again, haha. I don't normally drink it, but use it for cereal and cooking.

Does goat milk have that strong flavor to it like goat cheese? I find that I like feta cheese, but other goat cheeses are just too..."goaty" for my taste. Haha.

Storebought goat's milk usually has the strong goaty taste, but the fresh stuff
is supposed to have a more neutral taste/smell. I want a small herd of Nigerian Dwarfs!

Aww! Cute goats!

Hmm...my sister was telling me about how she became a part of a community supported agriculture group. So, every couple weeks she gets a ton a fresh veggies from a local farm! I bet I could find a local farm that offers goat's milk! Hmm...something to look into Thanks for the info, RogerDoger. This may be a dumb question, but is the "fresh stuff" pasteurized?

Well it is true that any adult of a mammalian species isn't supposed to drink milk as it's primarily for the young. There was a genetic mutation in humans though which allowed us to digest it still. Funnily enough people who are lactose intolerant are people who have the un-muted gene lol.

I'd say to just go with what your body tells you to. I was put on an egg and dairy free diet for a year and it did nothing but made me depressed that I couldn't eat cheese!

dreamintwilight said:

This may be a dumb question, but is the "fresh stuff" pasteurized?

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Nooo. It has to be heated at a high temperature, usually for a short period of time to kill off microorganisms in the milk. I wouldn't recommend drinking anything that's not been pasterised.

Right....yeah that wouldn't solve my MAP avoidance problem either, haha.

lol no!

I'm still undecided about MAP. I almost applied for a PhD studentship in looking at MAP with Crohn's disease. Wouldn't that of been amazing? Unfortunately I only found the post the day before the closing date and I was just too exhausted at the time to fill all the bits in. Gutted.

Considering what I've just read about MAP, I guess I'll forget about the goat herd. Damn milk. They told us it was good for us. My doctor asked me if I drank milk, and it was after I told him I was a heavy milk drinker that he said he'd schedule me for a colonoscopy.

Guess I'll stick with my free range chicken flock plan and fill my freezer next fall!

That stinks Misty! That would have been really cool to do

You can still have your goat herd, haha. Just don't drink the milk

dreamintwilight said:

That stinks Misty! That would have been really cool to do

You can still have your goat herd, haha. Just don't drink the milk

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I found goat stew to be overrated :ylol2:

"Delicious with a slightly sweet and sometimes salty undertone, goat's milk is the milk of choice in most of the world. Although not popular in the United States, it can be found in markets and health foods stores throughout the year."

"Historically, Crohn's disease has been pictured in the past as a disease that affects mostly white populations. As has been shown above, non-white migrants to Europe and North America are at a much greater risk of developing the disease than they are in their country of origin"

"The results of this study suggest that bulk raw sheep and goats' milk from these regions of the UK may not represent significant vehicles of transmission of M. paratuberculosis to humans."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11230934

"To most people today, especially in the more developed countries, the term milk is synonomous with cow milk, as if cows alone possess a singular ability to produce mammary secretions. Perhaps nowhere has the feeling been more prevalent than in the US, where over 10 million cows are maintained to provide an abundant, clean source of nourishment and refreshment to our country, producing more than 125 billion pounds of milk annually. Yet on a world wide basis, there are more people who drink the milk of goats than from any other single animal. Over 440 million goats (world wide) produce an estimated 4.8 million tons of milk that is predominantly consumed locally, or processed into various types of cheeses."

http://www.goatworld.com/articles/goatmilk/goatmilk.shtml



If most of the world consumes goat milk, except North America and Western Europe, which consumes cow milk, and if most of the world doesn't get Crohns nearly as bad as North America and Europe, and if goat milk doesn't transmit MAP nearly as much as cow milk does.....ummmmm.....to quote Elastica, "a connection is made.....boom....ooowww...boom.....owwww...."
oh, if only I had a brain!

Lishyloo said:

Milk is evil FOR ME..... can't comment for anyone else...

I went off milk after looking for a dairy alternative for my son who needed to be lactose free, I came upon a Vegan Society article which just put me off... so then I didn't have any milk for a few weeks because I kept thinking about what I had read.... then one evening my husband cracked open the icecream and I tucked in completely forgetting my new found moral high ground... dear god was I sick.... since then I haven't been able to touch any milk products at all... it's so bad even chocolate makes me vomit now...

Lishyloo

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lish, i cant tolerate any thing dairy that came from a cow. i use goats milk/cheese and it dont upset my tum. its a little bit more money but its worth it.

kenny said:

I found goat stew to be overrated :ylol2:

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its the fur, it gets stuck in your teeth!!!