How to cure your so-called disease.

Update: Important! http://www.mold-survivor.com/leaky_gut_syndrome.html

EDIT: Searching for my blood tests from this month at the moment, I will update soon. Hint: They're ALL normal too.


That's right, I'm 14 years old and I was diagnosed with "Crohn's disease" the "scary autoimmune" disorder in December 2011 and I was begging for help on this forum.
I didn't know shit about it, 2 years prior to that I was suffering from abscessess, pains, panic attacks.
I have an allergy to dairy milk since I was born, I don't have Crohn's disease from birth like the doctors think. I was doing fine until 2009-2010 when I decided to experiment with my mother..I tried to eat chocolate bars, candy, etc...all had dairy in it, of course. I was feeling fine, no pimples, no itching, no bad cough...it was a miracle that I was without that "the worst thing in my life" which I used to call. But a bit after that I got my first Crohn's symptoms... ...
so I think my dairy allergy caused it. Anyway, it doesn't matter...what matters is this: -> http://www.crohnsforum.com/showthread.php?t=30105

^ This is me a year ago...I can proudly say I know a lot about the "disease" now. Do you know why? Because I'm perfectly healthy now, my ass is fine, even though I had surgery for 3 perianal abscesses on both sides, a fistula and diarrhea + extreme pains in my intestines...And yes, I did have "Crohn's disease". That's the past though, here is what I am now.

- 14 years old, going to school, nice social life.
- Going to the toilet ONCE a day, perfectly normal.
- Painless abdomen.
- From pale-faced to normal, blush-kind-of-face.
- From low-grade fever to perfectly normal body temperature.
- From depression to a really positive and happy person.
- F*ck meds and f*ck doctors, I never got on that steroid crap, never will.
- Yes, this means I cured myself without ANY pills/steroids/humira/pred/whatever

How did I do this? Well, just go to my site and buy it, I have a 60 day money-back guarantee...LOL, just kidding. I don't need your money, I just want more people to be healthy like me!

How I did this:

1. First, and yes, it's extremely important, you have to be positive and happy.

No depression, no depression meds, just being happy. I'm actually spiritual now, which helped a lot. No, I don't pray to god and I'm not a religious fanatic.

2. Diet.
Diet is also extremely important..no sausages, no beer and crap on rare ocassions...this is what I eat:

Morning:

4 to 6 slices of toasted bread, you can add something like "red
pepper?" for a bit of a taste.... + juice! Juice really helps, mum makes watermellon + peaches..it tastes great and is good to drink. You can also make carrot juice and apples...I have not experimented much with apples, though.


Lunch: 1.Homemade pizza, made out of shrooms, a little bit of green pepper, some flavoring, little chunks from chicken breasts, also has to have tomato juice.


2. Soup. Mum makes vegetable soup or from potatoes, anything really. Great for the belly, tastes good and makes you feel good

3. Steamed vegetables! The only kind of vegetables I eat, never had problems with it. Really good, consists of brocolli, cauliflower, carrots..you can add more if you'd like.

4. Mashed potatoes!

5. Fish meat!

Dinner: It's good not to eat meat for dinner, even though I do that a lot...but I still recommend to eat meat at lunch only. Eat steamed vegetables or soup, something that will go in and out easily . Something like mashed potatoes or fish meat, as said above.

Snacks: I often eat peaches and melons, really tasty and I forget about sugar that way. REALLY IMPORTANT WARNING: NEVER, EVER EAT SUGAR. SUGAR IS THE MAIN CULPRIT FOR YOUR BAD HEALTH, I MEAN IT. WHEN I STOPPED TAKING ANY KIND OF SUGAR, ANY AT ALL, I NOW FEEL GREAT! ---- Read that as many times as you'd like, because it's important. Sorry for caps, actually no, I'm not sorry...it attracts attention.

Supplements

1. Vitamins. Vitamins help a lot, I have a "VITATABS ABCDE multi-vitamin complex" . People with Crohn's lack vitamin D or B12, I kind of forgot, it was associated with the sun. Anyways, Vitamin E is also really important, because it stops blood clots, and yes you do need it.

2. Neoratura bio-iron pills. I used to be anaemic, really anaemic. Strange thing is, that my iron was really low, around 4-4.5 (different units here, I guess) and a normal one is 9-27, while my hemoglobin around 120, which wasn't that low (P.S, it's 140 now ) . My iron at the moment is 11-12 which is still at the lower range, but it's normal and I will continue taking these.

3. The ultimate life-saver! Curcumin! This probably saved me..seriously, I'm in life-long remission because of it (I hope) . I was a bit depressed a few months ago, still had my god-damned fistula, which sometimes turns into an extremely painful abscess. I met Kit Campbell on YouTube, she told me of Curcumin and how it cured her Crohn's. She suffered for 40 years with Crohn's and this + positive thoughts cured her. Same thing happened with me, and I owe her a lot. I take on capsules, but you can make tea from it.

Also, 15 minutes before breakfast and dinner I take (as a tea) "white hollyhock" and "St. John's Wort"

That's it!

I hope this "protocol" cures ALL of you, and I hope it gets heard. I don't want any profit, money, whatever from it, I just want it to be known and used! I wish you all luck in your journey, and I know that you will get cured by THIS! . Life is great, enjoy it, and start using my protocol!

- Simon, from Bulgaria. :king:



P.S I gained 7 kg since June. Currently I'm 53 KG, 165 CM tall. That's perfectly normal too :ycool: . Another important thing (ah, so many!) .. Abscesses and fistulas are caused by the infection in your intestines, so if you follow my "protocol" you will get cured of both. Use it for life and I bet you won't ever have problems.

Hey Simon!

I'm so pleased to hear how well you're doing! That's fantastic I do want to caution you about one thing. As much as I would like to believe otherwise, I don't think you have "cured" your Crohn's Disease. I think you have put it in remission. Regardless, that you're in remission is wonderful!

The more I read about Turmeric/Curcumin the more I like it. I personally take Turmeric and it helps for sure.

Continued health to you my friend!

Many common sense pointers. I really wonder what would happen if people diligently stuck with the 100% no added sugar approach while their spectrum of the dis-ease is still mild.

I think caffeine is another culprit for milder cases to avoid, but it, like sugar, is too hard to avoid 100% in everyday life. I understand the temptations for these two basic things, as they do contribute to quality of life in modern society. Then again, the stakes are too high to keep eating foods that you know are directly aggravating your symptoms.

Just wondering how much curcumin you take? I'm now getting back on the bandwagon. I've been taking some mix of either curcumin or boswellia for the majority of the past 7 years off and on. Usually 1-3 grams a day, not sure what most people do.

Reading this, I thought it was some sort of tongue-in-cheek joke...

It's wonderful that you feel healthy. But--and forgive me if this is insensitive, rude, or otherwise out of line--I feel like a 14 year old telling folks that they just need to eat some steamed vegetables and soup (that their mom makes) and stay positive is awfully naive. I also have to say, I'm slightly offended by the usage of quotations around the word disease.

In any case, great for you that you feel good. Unfortunately, a child's "protocol" may not save the millions of folks worldwide that truly suffer from a pretty nasty disease.

Good for you Simon!!!

MissSarah said:

Reading this, I thought it was some sort of tongue-in-cheek joke...

It's wonderful that you feel healthy. But--and forgive me if this is insensitive, rude, or otherwise out of line--I feel like a 14 year old telling folks that they just need to eat some steamed vegetables and soup (that their mom makes) and stay positive is awfully naive. I also have to say, I'm slightly offended by the usage of quotations around the word disease.

In any case, great for you that you feel good. Unfortunately, a child's "protocol" may not save the millions of folks worldwide that truly suffer from a pretty nasty disease.

Click to expand...

Way to set that CHILD straight. Do you also wear t-shirts saying there is no Santa Claus or Easter Bunny?

His protocol is working for him and I think its great he shared it so we all can pick and choose ideas we might think will work for us or do a little research. Obviously this isn't going to work for everyone but most of us are adults here and can think for ourselves and don't need to tell a child they're naive or offending us.

But as you asked for forgiveness, you're forgiven.

Please remember folks, we're all on the same team and, "This is a support forum first and foremost". We all have different ideas on how to treat and deal with this disease and it can be hard to know what is the best course of action at times. Yes, sometimes we're going to disagree with others' perspectives and in that case, providing information in a supportive manner is welcome if you feel the need to respond. But I beg of all of you, please be supportive of each other or just bite your tongue and go on to the next thread.

Thank you!

MissSarah said:

Reading this, I thought it was some sort of tongue-in-cheek joke...

It's wonderful that you feel healthy. But--and forgive me if this is insensitive, rude, or otherwise out of line--I feel like a 14 year old telling folks that they just need to eat some steamed vegetables and soup (that their mom makes) and stay positive is awfully naive. I also have to say, I'm slightly offended by the usage of quotations around the word disease.

In any case, great for you that you feel good. Unfortunately, a child's "protocol" may not save the millions of folks worldwide that truly suffer from a pretty nasty disease.

Click to expand...

Seriously??? Its a 14 year old kid, who is going beyond what most other 14 year olds do, and is actually trying to help...with a good heart behind the motive. I had crohns since 13. Its ruff, and you can only be so lucky to have gotten it later in life. Be thankful. You would think after all we go through mentally, physically and emotionally together, that we could be a little more sensitive, and understanding of one another.

Edited

yikes.

i think my post was misunderstood. perhaps i didn't articulate my feelings well.

like i said, i think it's great that he's feeling well. i just don't feel like it's necessarily fair to other folks who may be struggling with a huge degree of difficulty. (my comment about the quotes was because the inclusion of quotes indicates some level of "its-not-really-a-disease-its-a-fake-disease". i'm an editorial word nerd, perhaps that was a bit nit-picky.) sincere apologies for misspeaking and offending. apologies to all whom i bothered with my comments.

to the original poster--again, it's awesome that you feel good and many wishes that remission continues.

Even though I am doing well, i have been slacking on my diet. I will clean it up and eliminate sugar dairy a little bit more. Solid advice, something which i have done and found helpful for years. Especially sugar, thanks for the helpful reminder. And I will keep that curcumin in mind if i relapse. Thanks

Nice to hear that Simon..but I would say what David said...you may be in remission and not cured (I sincerely hope I am wrong here)..I too am in remission and I feel no crohn' symptom..in fact I have forgotten how it felt...why ?? simply because I eat just what we are supposed to eat..full veg diet ( out here in my place, veg mens veg..not even egg)...I lot of fruits/ fruit juices...daily exercise like running,yoga and gym 3 times a week...and meditation. belive me these things are enough to keep you in remission forever...I am in remission but am still not cured.

But I like few point in your posts...1. keeping positive attitude and never loose hope. I stil belive I will cure my crohn's..like I rest my hopes on few findings like ...crohns getting cured itself after continous remission, Daily pranayam (breathing exercise which has cured people of UC), healing the ulcers in the colon through proper diet,etc.

And ofcourse the thought process....I too belive that postive thinking has an effect on your physical well being as its mentioned in Ayurveda for thousand of years and people get themselves cured just by meditation...infact your mind can directly damage or cure your body (even Homeopathy works on these principles if am not wrong).

All I'l say is congrats for achieving what you have achieved. and thanks for posting this thread as others may get inspired and follow strict diet and achieve remission.

i really admire Simon,i think he puts a lot of good points forward,and if it works for him thats brilliant,i must say,i have a stricture at my terminal ilieium,but i can really say that i do not suffer at all pain wise to often,only if i eat something that causes my stricture a problem.by this i mean i stick to a really rigid diet,as Simon mentioned,i tend to stick to the same foods each day,it can get boring,but hey living on fish (there are lots of different varieties) and chicken each day alternatively is ok,also i eat mashed potatoes,both on Simons diet,
i eat bread,the light stuff (danish).cakes,sponge,jelly,goats hard cheese,goats milk,(does not give me any problems like cows milk)goats yoghurt,prebiotic,
Alpro soya,(i alternate it in teas,on cornflakes and rice krispies,i do admit i have sugar,a bigdown fall i know,but we buy unrefined brown suger,
i never drink fizzy pop ever,or Coca cola,i have Orange sqaush,also never touch tap water,i buy bottles and bottles of evian water.
If i do try vegetables it is only ever carrots or swede,which i boil and put through a sieve,i can then digest better.i also have goats butter
By sticking to this diet.i can honestly say i never get much pain at all,
So i think a lot of food does cause problems,especially anything to do with a cow!!!!
Try it and see how you get on for a couple of weeks,i dont mind answering any questions,its a bit basic,but basically nearly all low residue,but it works,
i have been doing this for quite a few years now,am 58 and still going to work
as a carer.

BTW Curcumin should be taken in empty stomach early in the morning (raw is better)..its is a natural anti bacteria and anti inflammatory...also good for your liver.

i have experianced negative side effects from large amounts of turmeric and it has nto cured me. but in low amounts, 1/4 teaspoon a day made into a tea, it makes me feel better, in an overall way, but doesnt seem to dramatically affect my disease activity but may reduce inflammation slightly.

a very good overall treatment i use is fresh ginger, ground pepper and turmeric (curcumin)boiled into a tea and drink that, it will slightly help your inflammation, but mostly affect your overall well being. ginger contains large amounts of melatonin which can aid intestinal healing. i use about a teaspoon of freshly ground ginger.

these three ingredients supposedly make up the basic ingredients of multiple medicinal formulations in ayurvedic medicine.

I would also echo the main sentiments of the individuals above, but first of all, congrats on finding something that works for you. Crohns is a bit of a rollar coaster disease and I feel the thing that is really important to remember is whenever you have a flare-up, just recall on the current time, in that you are feeling great.

Simon, I am sure you have done extensive research on crohns, you may have read testimony from individuals who claim to be completely cured of crohns, however this is false. Well, mainly false anyways. The only individuals that have gotten completely cured are individuals who have gone through bone marrow transplant which is a very complicated method that is not a sure-fire path to success.

Remission isn`t being cured, however, in remission you will have no symptoms which may give off the illusion that you are cured, however you are not. Mainly individuals go into remission, I have heard of up to 20 years (I am sure there are longer cases as well) of individuals who lived symptom free.

Also I hope you won`t so frankly dismiss taking medication or steroids for your crohns if the time arises. These medicines save lives, please remember this.

All in all, I am very happy for your remission, I wish you health. But please remember that crohns is a complicated disease, and there is no set cookie-cutter solution for it as it affects us all differently.

Best of Luck,

Hey Simon!

Glad to hear you have beat your disease and I hope it stays that way. I too believe that this disease can be cured. Don't listen to the neigh sayers, they are the reason why people don't share what has helped them if it isn't on par with the medical community. I admire you for trying to help others, I am trying to do the same thing but am often met with neigh sayers and doubters who try to undermine and discredit me.

The only thing I have to say is to make sure you stick with your treatment plan and don't abandon it just because you think you are cured, because in my opinion it takes a long time to cure. I have adopted a raw vegan diet while incorporating green juices everyday. I know that i am well on my way to being cured but don't think i have reached it quite yet.

Keep it up Simon! Don't stop educating others!

Gianni

Gianni,

I agree 100% that this disease can be cured but I think that is probably a long way off. I think a means of getting most into remission is much closer. I don't think diet alone can cure the disease but I think it can lead some people to remission. For an actual cure, I think there will probably need to be genetic alterations.

In the end, it's people like you and Simon that will help make a huge difference for many.

David,
I appreciate the response. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on how the disease will be cured. I don't think the public will ever see an allopathic cure through genetics, drugs, or stem cells. To me it makes much more sense to be able to cure an ailment through diet seeing as diet effects every single aspect of the human body and seeing as diet has been a strong part of human health through millions of years of evolution, not drugs. Manipulating mother nature through genetic alterations, and stem cells really just doesn't make any sense to me... but then again diet having an effect on health makes absolutely no sense to other people. I guess that's why we have forums!

Glad to hear that you have got your disease into remission, its very hard for many people to get into remission even on powerful drugs, and that youve done it without that, that's great.

i always thought i was cured when i stopped taking my medications (6mp) but last year after 8 years remission, under heavy stress i have had a really bad flare thats slowly slowly getting better, ive spent thousands on supplements, copays, colonscopies,xrays etc this past year. so whatever is working with you make sure you do stick to it, because it can always strike back. always better safe than sorry

and as a 14 year old to know about supplements and what your body needs, thats great!

gtzucc said:

David,
I appreciate the response. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on how the disease will be cured. I don't think the public will ever see an allopathic cure through genetics, drugs, or stem cells. To me it makes much more sense to be able to cure an ailment through diet seeing as diet effects every single aspect of the human body and seeing as diet has been a strong part of human health through millions of years of evolution, not drugs. Manipulating mother nature through genetic alterations, and stem cells really just doesn't make any sense to me... but then again diet having an effect on health makes absolutely no sense to other people. I guess that's why we have forums!

Click to expand...

I am not aware of Ulcerative Colitis much and what it is,.....never felt like researching about it....but what I know is it is very similar to CD. and there is no cure for UC as well..just like crohn's. If that the case..then I can tell you that there are people who have got thier UC completely cured through diet. But there is more to it.

Ayurveda is the oldest form of medical science and there is clear mention about Ulcerative colitis in Vedas ( the books on Hindu religion and Ayurveda) that UC is " NOT CURABLE" through any medicine or diet changes...it can only be cured only and only through 'kapalbhati'(one particular exercise, which involves movement of your intestine,stomach and breath control all together), a type of Pranayam. People have doen this, doing these and getting cured of UC...am not saying so for CD. because there has not been any case where CD has been cured (but there are very rare of case of CD in India, thus I am sure no one has given it a try) but I am hopeful that if can work for UC, it will definitely work for CD. i am currently doiong it...and every passing day seems better. I keep mentioning about it on this forum so that people learn about Pranayam and ayurveda more and get benefits for their CD...if you want to know more you can PM me.

"... I eat just what we are supposed to eat..full veg diet "

I have very great difficulty with this concept because I don't know where the "supposed to" comes from. I understand that some people become vegetarians/vegans because of religious beliefs or ethical concerns and some because they do feel better under such a regime. I know also that it has been put forward by some that "this is what our ancestors ate".

There is continuing and vigorous debate on this in scientific circles (let alone the pseudo-scientific circles). The generally accepted scientific view seems to be that that most of our ancestors were omnivorous to a greater or lesser degree (and it is the degree that is usually debated). Most (even if you go back to the apes) seem to have eaten some meat (including fish, birds, reptiles, insects, etc.) - the quantity and type being determined by their circumstances.

There are some people who definitely seem to fare better consuming a vegetarian diet and some of my closest friends are in this category. (Interestingly, most of these are Blood Type A, as are most of my women friends who have had breast cancer.) Conversely, others of my friends and acquaintances who have become vegetarian, and who were convinced that this what they were supposed to eat, have failed to thrive or have actually become ill and have had to revert to an omnivorous diet.

Susan2 said:

"... I eat just what we are supposed to eat..full veg diet "

I have very great difficulty with this concept because I don't know where the "supposed to" comes from. I understand that some people become vegetarians/vegans because of religious beliefs or ethical concerns and some because they do feel better under such a regime. I know also that it has been put forward by some that "this is what our ancestors ate".

There is continuing and vigorous debate on this in scientific circles (let alone the pseudo-scientific circles). The generally accepted scientific view seems to be that that most of our ancestors were omnivorous to a greater or lesser degree (and it is the degree that is usually debated). Most (even if you go back to the apes) seem to have eaten some meat (including fish, birds, reptiles, insects, etc.) - the quantity and type being determined by their circumstances.

There are some people who definitely seem to fare better consuming a vegetarian diet and some of my closest friends are in this category. (Interestingly, most of these are Blood Type A, as are most of my women friends who have had breast cancer.) Conversely, others of my friends and acquaintances who have become vegetarian, and who were convinced that this what they were supposed to eat, have failed to thrive or have actually become ill and have had to revert to an omnivorous diet.

Click to expand...

There are many arguments for both sides of the argument. Personally i am an 80% raw vegan and am loving it and i have my own theories on the matter.
I'm not here to go into religious debate and what not but i believe in evolution and in those regards before we were apes we were something else. Anthropologists have their theories on what we were but most anthropologists believe that before apes we were herbivores.

The truth of the matter is, is that each person is going to be different. Just how some apes were omnivores and some herbivores, some humans were meant to be herbivores while some omnivores. The diets change primarily based on the environment and the competition within the region. There is strong evidence to support that in the southern hemispheres amongst the more tropical climates primal humans had a strong plant based diet while humans who lived in northern, colder places had a meat heavy diet. Take for example eskimos who had and continue to have a strong fish diet. Now for the modern eskimos a fish heavy diet is exactly what they need in order to stay healthy.

I found a strong Italian background and native american background in my lineage so i decided to stick to a plant based diet, and i couldn't be happier. I know that my ancestors stuck to a more plant based diet. Thats not to say they didn't ever eat meat because im sure they did but the way meat is processed today...bleh count me out.

For a more modern example look at Japan who consistently live extremely long and have some of the lowest cancer rates in the world, yet they smoke more than the average american and are exposed to more environmental toxins than the average american. It is because they have stuck to their ancestors diet of rice, vegetables, and fish that they are able to ward of illnesses. However as systems of food and agriculture change in japan, as they are now, Japan will start getting more sick and more sick.

It is very likely that for most people their ancestors were omnivores but today as a society we have a skewed view of the term omnivore. The average american eats wayyyyy to much meat in comparison with the plants they eat. I mean it is kind of obvious looking at the rates of heart disease in this country that we aren't supposed to eat so much meat. There are only a small percentage of humans that can actually handle that much meat and those are the eskimos and other northern living indigenous populi.

Big thing here is people need to actually realize what omnivores are, yes they eat both meat and vegetables but our ancestors didn't eat that much meat because it wasn't as readily available as it is today. Sure stay an omnivore, it can still be healthy but still try to stick to 70% vegetables.

Also it isn't just about whether your ancestors ate meat or vegetables its about what meat they ate and what vegetables. So don't read this and think... oh im japanese so i'm gonna eat some beef... no they ate fish... not just any meat.

That's how i see it

sid said:

I am not aware of Ulcerative Colitis much and what it is,.....never felt like researching about it....but what I know is it is very similar to CD. and there is no cure for UC as well..just like crohn's. If that the case..then I can tell you that there are people who have got thier UC completely cured through diet. But there is more to it.

Ayurveda is the oldest form of medical science and there is clear mention about Ulcerative colitis in Vedas ( the books on Hindu religion and Ayurveda) that UC is " NOT CURABLE" through any medicine or diet changes...it can only be cured only and only through 'kapalbhati'(one particular exercise, which involves movement of your intestine,stomach and breath control all together), a type of Pranayam. People have doen this, doing these and getting cured of UC...am not saying so for CD. because there has not been any case where CD has been cured (but there are very rare of case of CD in India, thus I am sure no one has given it a try) but I am hopeful that if can work for UC, it will definitely work for CD. i am currently doiong it...and every passing day seems better. I keep mentioning about it on this forum so that people learn about Pranayam and ayurveda more and get benefits for their CD...if you want to know more you can PM me.

Click to expand...

Hi sid,

I'll have to disagree with the Vedas on the diet aspect but yes i would love to learn more about the breathing practices. I am always extremely intrigued with primal and indigenous rituals when it comes to health. I will shoot you a PM, Thanks!

Gianni

Susan2 said:

"... I eat just what we are supposed to eat..full veg diet "

I have very great difficulty with this concept because I don't know where the "supposed to" comes from. I understand that some people become vegetarians/vegans because of religious beliefs or ethical concerns and some because they do feel better under such a regime. I know also that it has been put forward by some that "this is what our ancestors ate".

There is continuing and vigorous debate on this in scientific circles (let alone the pseudo-scientific circles). The generally accepted scientific view seems to be that that most of our ancestors were omnivorous to a greater or lesser degree (and it is the degree that is usually debated). Most (even if you go back to the apes) seem to have eaten some meat (including fish, birds, reptiles, insects, etc.) - the quantity and type being determined by their circumstances.

There are some people who definitely seem to fare better consuming a vegetarian diet and some of my closest friends are in this category. (Interestingly, most of these are Blood Type A, as are most of my women friends who have had breast cancer.) Conversely, others of my friends and acquaintances who have become vegetarian, and who were convinced that this what they were supposed to eat, have failed to thrive or have actually become ill and have had to revert to an omnivorous diet.

Click to expand...

Hi Susan,

I have to agree to your post if you talk about west. But I should tell you that my ancestors have been pure vegetarians from thousand of years....still most of the people here are vegetarian here , not because of any illness but because of the culture.

I would say people who get sick eating veg diet should not go for veg diet as there bodies might have changed itself after years of consuming non veg diet and is notready to accept the suden change...thats the only thing that copmes to mind..may be they should not totally give up non veg but must include veg food in thei diet and slowly increase the qualntity..am sure this way it wil defnitely help.

Hi Sid

i don't want to appear argumentative, but I have to comment on your first paragraph. You make the distinction between "west" and everybody else (the "east"?) There are, in fact, many peoples in the east who are not vegetarians - most of the Chinese, the Japanese, and the South-East Asians. If you are talking about the Indian sub-continent, what you say is mostly true, although there are even some Hindus and Buddhists who are allowed, and eat, meat. There are also other very large groups of people in Africa and South America who cannot be considered part of "the west"; most of these are not vegetarian if they can possibly find meat.

The problem with relying on the Vedas for knowledge of the eating habits of your ancestors is that the earliest of these dates from approximately 1700 BCE, giving veracity to vegetarianism as part of relatively recent culture, but not in terms of the time periods that scientists use to discuss the eating habits of our ancestors.

Please be assured that I am not opposed to vegetarianism per se; that is a personal choice and I respect your right to make that choice. And, as I said earlier, I know that it is the most suitable diet for some people. But I am opposed to "vegetarian evangelism" (as I am opposed to other types of evangelism).

Susan2 said:

Hi Sid

i don't want to appear argumentative, but I have to comment on your first paragraph. You make the distinction between "west" and everybody else (the "east"?) There are, in fact, many peoples in the east who are not vegetarians - most of the Chinese, the Japanese, and the South-East Asians. If you are talking about the Indian sub-continent, what you say is mostly true, although there are even some Hindus and Buddhists who are allowed, and eat, meat. There are also other very large groups of people in Africa and South America who cannot be considered part of "the west"; most of these are not vegetarian if they can possibly find meat.

Click to expand...

No susan its absoloutely fine...its great that we can have a discussion that will help in sharing knowledge and informations. I did not copmpare west with east...I simply said it because honestly speaking ( and not to offend anyone or you) out here, there is a common belief that its the western culture that has ruined many of our traditional historic practices, although I dont blame the west as its our personal choice what to practice and what not...thats the only reason the word west was used. Dont know about Buddhists (although its almost as same as hindusim in this regard, based on Hindu prinicples)..but Hindus did not eat Non veg in the time that we are talking about....but they later started eating it...may be due to exposure to non veg as we were invaded by by mughals and Muslim rulers from the west and also as time progressed we were more exposed to western culture as we were under british rule for 150 years...a hindu today does eat non veg..but as a hindu, he i not supposed to eat non veg and people still follow it.

The problem with relying on the Vedas for knowledge of the eating habits of your ancestors is that the earliest of these dates from approximately 1700 BCE, giving veracity to vegetarianism as part of relatively recent culture, but not in terms of the time periods that scientists use to discuss the eating habits of our ancestors.

Click to expand...

i do not know what time period scientists use to discuss the eating habits of our ancestors..but i can tell you, although this time I have no other proof..that Indians..more precisely Aryans and even dravidians..later who were Hindus...ate only vegetarian diet even before vedas existed...hindu mythology stories is full of stories of the aryans and dravidians and a most of them were vegetarians. ( now since its mythology, i have no proof of that..although slowly we are also discovering the hard proofs of those historical stories and scientist and archeologists are working on more of that.

Please be assured that I am not opposed to vegetarianism per se; that is a personal choice and I respect your right to make that choice. And, as I said earlier, I know that it is the most suitable diet for some people. But I am opposed to "vegetarian evangelism" (as I am opposed to other types of evangelism).

Click to expand...

well, all I can say is that as far possible I would educate as many people about the benefits of a vegetrian diet..as I firmly belive that is the key to a better health. Few people may get the results late but I know they would. But of course its a peronal choice..as a person who has benefited from veg diet I can only suggest them and not force them to belive what I belive. But then if someone is comfortable with non veg diet its always fine if they stick to it...we all do things only to make our lives comfortable so if non veg is not giving problems to someone who is already a non vegetarin then..there is no point of this debate at all. ..I sincerely hope I was not rude with this post of mine...but it was nice discussing this with you.

I am starting from next week a Transcendental Meditation journey,a little it on the expensive side,but I feel it is going to benefit me inall sorts of ways.
As I put on another post here,had my colonoscopy yesterday apart from a less than 5cm stricture in my Terminal Ilieum which he tried Balloon Dialation on but failed as too tight,everything else clear in large bowel,no biopsies taken,and this is my first one in about 15 years,I think a lot is to do with my restricted diet,although I do try and vary it,chicken,every time of fish going nearly every day,sardines,mackerel,you name it i eat it,no red meat,no veg,no salads because of my stricture although I do sieve carrots and swede,which are tolerable and I also eat veg consommé soups.i have had crohns 40 years and as I say apart from the small stricture I feel great,the my thing I am on is Aza 100mg,not enough for my weight as I am 160lbs but all my loads are fine on it,so I will just carry on.Will let you know how my Transcendental medition goes.
Anyone else do this form of meditation.

^^^ Hi Trish, glad to know that ypu are taking that route. belive me itwill definitiley work. I too meditate with my guru but not Transcendental medition..actually there is hardly any difference between Transcendental medition and other form meditation..just few changes here and there. In this case you chant the mantras. (there are other meditations as well that needs chanting of mantras).It is just amazing for your brain , nervous system and affects your whole body..atleast what I can assure you is you will be relived from the tensions, depression and negative feelings instantly that you get as a crohn's patient. all the best.

sid said:

No susan its absoloutely fine...its great that we can have a discussion that will help in sharing knowledge and informations...

...I sincerely hope I was not rude with this post of mine...but it was nice discussing this with you.

Click to expand...

You certainly were not rude, Sid - far from it. As you say, we should be able to hold discussions about these things and share ideas even if there are some things on which we do not agree. :thumright:

Susan2 said:

You certainly were not rude, Sid - far from it. As you say, we should be able to hold discussions about these things and share ideas even if there are some things on which we do not agree. :thumright:

Click to expand...

Great..atleast we agree to disagree :thumleft: and honestly all this while I was thinking may be I was rude with that post of mine IDK why...but the rock is off my chest now.

I cured my Crohn's with circus peanuts. I was addicted to them during my first flare and ate a bag every couple days. The Crohn's went away, I dropped all meds, and my GI said there was no sign of me ever having had Crohn's. Woohoo!

Seriously, though, congrats on the remission. Unfortunately, it always comes back. This time, I'm trying to cure it with Good 'N Plenty (my current addiction). Maybe I'll get another good 6 years of remission. That was a wonderful time.

I say do whatever works for you. But do understand that what works for one person won't necessarily work for the next. :cool2:

Thanks Sid for your comments,I am looking forward to TM,I think yes this will alleviate a lot of my stress,anxiety,and In Return make my crohns symptons much easier.
I meditate at present but not to the level of TM,

David said:

Hey Simon!

I'm so pleased to hear how well you're doing! That's fantastic I do want to caution you about one thing. As much as I would like to believe otherwise, I don't think you have "cured" your Crohn's Disease. I think you have put it in remission. Regardless, that you're in remission is wonderful!

The more I read about Turmeric/Curcumin the more I like it. I personally take Turmeric and it helps for sure.

Continued health to you my friend!

Click to expand...

Can you explain to me what Turmeric/Cucumin is? How does it work? Brand you recommened?

SidS said:

Can you explain to me what Turmeric/Cucumin is? How does it work? Brand you recommened?

Click to expand...

Give this thread a read

That's the problem. You believe that Crohn's "always comes back", when in fact you can program yourself to forget about it..and in turn combined with the rest of treatment I mentioned you can be feeling great for the rest of your life. I've been having Crohn's disease for a few years now, and during 2011 I ate all kinds of undigestible cr@p and still felt good, just because I DIDN"T know I had the "disease". But hey, it's your problem, I just shared..you can continue your depressed life with medications if you want to.

Read this: http://www.mold-survivor.com/leaky_gut_syndrome.html ... I'll update my first post with it too. Really important.

This forum is founded on support and mutual respect.

Respectful and robust discussion is always encouraged however flippant and disrespectful remarks are not.

For anyone wishing to post in this thread bear in mind that this a support forum first and foremost. Therefore please ensure your comments are relayed in a courteous and thoughtful manner.

Dusty.

Ok Simon, I have to give you Much credit for at such a young age that you have figured out a way to treat Crohns. You sure you are only 14. The "NO SUGAR" recommendation is right on the mark. I didnt put that into practice until about 7 yrs now. I was diagnosed in 1990 & I havent taken any prescription meds since 1990, because they were making me sick. Nutrition is the only way that the human body can function correctly, & I chose to put faith in that not in man made synthetic drugs. MDs in the past have not been trained in nutrition so they dont usually recommend that. That is changing somewhat today.

1. DIET is definately the MOST IMPORTANT treatment for Crohns.( NO MILK- NO PROCESSED FOODS)-if you eat something that makes you sick dont eat it again.
2. Turmeric (as you mentioned Simon has been studied)
3. Boswellia ( natural anti-inflammatory) that someone here mentioned.
4. L-Glutamine (has been studied)
5. Evening Primrose Oil
6. Lecithin ( has been studied)
7. Digestive enzyme with Duodendal glandular / Liver Glandular
8. Aloe Vera Gel ( natural anti-inflammatory)

Most of these recommendations are in a book called
" Prescription For Nutritional Healing " by Balch an MD & his Wife a CN
This book was a life saver for me. The people that wrote it are professionals.
The latest edition has so much updated info on Crohns.

I still have issues from time to time (about every 2yrs) so I dont think there is an actual cure, but there are proven NATURAL treatments for Crohns. Depending on how much damage Crohns & Doctors have done to a person it may take longer to get results. When I was in pain, Aloe Vera would take the pain away within the hour.
Simon Keep up the good work & dont stop telling others about your Good experience.

Well said Stephanie, everybody has their own way of healing, I've been Crohn's free now for 4.5 years and changing diet played a big part of that. My diet was different again

Thanks for the post Simon, I'm glad you found something that works for you. While it mostly is common sense we can often forget some of this stuff, especially the diet part. Although I'd be careful about suggesting some of the stuff. Saying no to medication isn't really a good thing to do, meds are important to keep you in remission and help you while you're ill. By neglecting them you could be doing some pretty bad harm to yourself. Also fruits are fairly high in sugar, which may be why some crohnies find it hard to digest/that it makes them ill. Although this is much better than getting your sugar from chocolate!

Either way, thanks for the advice. Hopefully you've helped a few people out with this. I'm not one to judge anyway, I drink 4 pints of milk a day )

chrisnsteph1022 said:

I cured my Crohn's with circus peanuts. I was addicted to them during my first flare and ate a bag every couple days. The Crohn's went away, I dropped all meds, and my GI said there was no sign of me ever having had Crohn's. Woohoo!

Click to expand...

I cured my crohn's disease with M&M, one of the side effects was a blue tongue.

The No Sugar thing is definitely a must. But forgetting you have Crohns doesn't work.

I agree with funny bunny. Even though my Crohn's is quiet right now thanks to a medical treatment that's keeping it in remission, there are STILL the side effects that come with it: joint pain, fatigue, abdominal abscesses (Which I had for TWO years) that have to be drained and packed by a GI surgeon, fistulas, eye issues if you're on steroids for over a year, osteoporosis (a steroid side effect if you've been on them for years. it causes calcium depletion).

So to say Crohn's is cured isn't correct. It can be treated with the right combination of treatments by working with your GI and if need by, a GI surgeon, diet, exercise, getting enough rest, not drinking, not smoking, and just using common sense really so you don't put yourself into a full flare up.

There are newer treatments that are in the works as we speak. Knowledge is power. The members here work as a team with their doctors and come here for support as well.

~GW

Don't get me wrong, reducing stress can help (because we carry our emotional tension in our bowels), but claiming that "forgetting about Crohn's" can cure it is simply wishful thinking.
If it works for Simon right now that's great, and it's important to have a positive outlook, but it sounds like he's simply in remission, I do recommend that he keeps up a healthy diet and if he notices any changes in pain and bowel movements to see a doctor.

Hopefully his remission will last a long time.

You hear that people, start using his protocol, ditch your meds and start his diet asap, and you'll be cured.

To say I'm offended is an understatement so I'll leave before I get banned. Hope people listen to their doctors and not some 14 year old child from Bulgaria. I really do.

This is great advice IAMTHEWALrus and Funnybunny.

ALWAYS REMEMBER to check with your doctor BEFORE trying anything you read or hear about as it can cause serious interactions with different types of medications and/or treatments. The last thing an IBD patient needs is to be hospitalized in the ER is because they didn't double check with their GI doctor to see if it a product was safe to take.

Another person you can talk to is your pharmacist about herb/hollistic medicines and drug interactions for a 2nd opinion. They've had many years of schooling and know the compounds even of the pills everyone takes. They'll even take the time to look up information for you to make sure you are healthy and safe.


:hug::hug::hug:

One thing my GI & Primary MD taught me is, If it sounds TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE, it probably IS, especially when it's expensive and there is no data or studies to back it up by real doctors, only testimonials by people who are paid to promote the product.

DustyKat said:

This forum is founded on support and mutual respect.

Respectful and robust discussion is always encouraged however flippant and disrespectful remarks are not.

For anyone wishing to post in this thread bear in mind that this a support forum first and foremost. Therefore please ensure your comments are relayed in a courteous and thoughtful manner.

Dusty.

Click to expand...

I agree. But when you start things with "so called disease" it just doesn't start out very respectful. It diminishes what is happening to other in "one fell swoop".

I have seen many people go into remission with little to no effort. I am thankful for them, because they give other suffers hope. But, where does this leave those who have reached for the highest heights of nirvana, let their minds be free as possible, use all the positive thinking anyone could mustard, have changed diets, environments, exercise, religions, stress levels, and anything else that would free them from this afflictions. Yet, still find themselves suffering..

It just seem disrespectful to those who are left to suffer when one makes such statements. I am always encourage when someone tells me what works for them, if I believe it will work for me I will gladly implement their success. But, some just take their success to far, and really cause more suffering than comfort. It is great to tell someone what has worked for you, but to tell them they should do the same is just irresponsible. What if they should follow your demands and become more ill than they ever were before? Don't we encourage each other to stand up to doctors and just say "no" sometimes?

This forum starts with a request to be respectful, of the fact, that everyone has a different journey with this disease. Which is great advice, and really can be carried over to life itself. And, there are some generalization that work in both chronic illnesses and life. But, if you like red, and I don't. Me liking red won't make my life anymore like yours. Sometimes we are just different. And that goes for Chronic Illness and the courses they take in each individual.

Peace and Love.

Hmmm I feel as though I'm the only one thinking this is no 14 year old !

When I was a teenage and first getting sick, I saw lots of alternative health proffesionals who told me I could cure myself through diet and supplements. Even my regular GP told me my illness was caused by stress (they assumed I had IBS rather than IBD at the time). I put myself through ridculous diet and stress-relieving exercises (meditation, various alternative therapies, etc.). I was so confused when I didn't get better. I felt like I'd failed. I didn't understand why professionals promised I would feel better as long as I ate/didn't eat certain things, when I clearly was just getting worse.

Now I eat junk food and my digestive system is actually far better than when I eat "healthy" because I can't tolerate fibre well.

I eat plenty of sugar - it's not evil.

Prednisone makes me feel better. I've had other health problems corrected with surgery. I take medications to control my hormones and relieve pain and digestive symptoms. These things have improved my quality of life far more than diet ever has.

That said, I know other people may benefit more from particular diets. Perhaps I'm also unusal in that my symptoms are totally independent from stress - maybe others' do feel physically better when they think positive.

But I'm sceptical of any "cure" for Crohn's. At the very least, it will work only for some people and not others. I don't think it's appropriate to tell people they can cure themselves, because it implies that if you're sick and can't get better it's somehow your own fault, or you're just not trying hard enough. If you're an insecure person, like I was when I was a teenager, being given that kind of responsibility for something that's actually outside of your control can be extremely bad for your self esteem.

It's great to share what's worked for you and give others suggestions about what to try. I think it's just the wording and tone of this post that bothers me.

I think everybody jumping down this kids throat is a little unnecessary. Although we know that currently there is no official "cure" I think we should give this kid, and any others credit for seeking alternative methods and making significant lifestyle changes. I've said it before and I'll say it again, taking medicine, which we know can have serious effects is completely contradictory when you continue to eat like shit anyways. There's no justification in eating anything you want just because we take medicine and they can take care of the disease. By doing so you're just making it that much harder for the medicine to work.

Now I, and many others would disagree with some of the stuff this member is eating (potatoes) saying that he is crazy or things like "I'm not going to listen to some silly little 14 year old" is insane. Maybe some people should listen to him.

I'm sorry to single you out UnXmas but when you called the kid crazy, but then said this, I think people would have different opinions on who the crazy one is.

UnXmas said:

Now I eat junk food and my digestive system is actually far better than when I eat "healthy" because I can't tolerate fibre well.

I eat plenty of sugar - it's not evil.

Click to expand...

Junk food isn't good for anybody, crohns or not. To say that eating junk food is better than eating healthy is insane. That's like saying eating Hamburger Helper is better than eating a salad. Nobody would take that seriously. Just because fiber doesn't work, there are many diets that exclude fiber, or are low fiber diets.

KWalker said:

I think everybody jumping down this kids throat is a little unnecessary. Although we know that currently there is no official "cure" I think we should give this kid, and any others credit for seeking alternative methods and making significant lifestyle changes. I've said it before and I'll say it again, taking medicine, which we know can have serious effects is completely contradictory when you continue to eat like shit anyways. There's no justification in eating anything you want just because we take medicine and they can take care of the disease. By doing so you're just making it that much harder for the medicine to work.

Now I, and many others would disagree with some of the stuff this member is eating (potatoes) saying that he is crazy or things like "I'm not going to listen to some silly little 14 year old" is insane. Maybe some people should listen to him.

I'm sorry to single you out UnXmas but when you called the kid crazy, but then said this, I think people would have different opinions on who the crazy one is.



Junk food isn't good for anybody, crohns or not. To say that eating junk food is better than eating healthy is insane. That's like saying eating Hamburger Helper is better than eating a salad. Nobody would take that seriously. Just because fiber doesn't work, there are many diets that exclude fiber, or are low fiber diets.

Click to expand...

X2

Mature bunch here I see. I'm sure this will encourage many other 14 year olds to come open up as well on the forum :facepalm:

I think i'm gonna say the same as most on here.I'm really happy for you that the crohn's has gone for now but l have a suspicion that you may be speaking too soon. Crohn's will often be eliminated after surgery and is rare to appear immediately after.I tried looking at everything to find some way of stopping the pain i was in and i guess plenty of others have. I've even been on the phone to my gp,begging for a certain test because i'd convinced myself that i had something else.Not completely sure why i did it for so long.Maybe i hoped it was something else and i could be cured.True,having crohn's can lead to other problems and has done in my case so definitely keep an eye out for other symptoms but there are literally hundreds that match crohn's. That's why it normally takes to long to diagnose and the patient is already damage inside.It seems like you could be in denial and maybe talking about it with others might help as you'll be able to relate to what they are saying.Diets,whatever!Tried them all,not even starving yourself will stop it.What i'm really saying is,crohn's is very real and you have must of had it proven with tests.They don't just pick an illness out of the air,as like i said.There are loads that match the symptoms.Keep on doing what your doing coz it's making you feel better and that can never be a bad thing

First, to the OP, I do appreciate you posting your protocol. I think some people find your tone a little off putting but I suppose I can understand how you want to shout about your "cure" after feeling bad for years. Congratulations and I hope you stay healthy!
Sid, it's interesting you mention "our ancestors" and the pure veg diet. I am Hindu though from a meat eating family. As a young child I chose to become vegetarian then vegan on ethical grounds and now have been for 25 years. My children were raised pure veg from birth. My daughter was diagnosed with early onset UC. The vegetarian diet was the wrong diet for her (and it included only organic, fresh, local blah blah fruit and veg, organic whole grains etc). A few years ago we moved her to a low carb/paleo diet. She responded immediately. Unfortunately for some reason I can not understand it stopped working but I do believe a grain free low sugar (including sugar from fruit unfortunately) works best for her. We are now trying it again in desperation after the failure of all allopathic meds (except infliximab) and alternative treatments. Just want to weigh in from our IBD veggie to paleo perspective.

Bottomless mummy said:

Hmmm I feel as though I'm the only one thinking this is no 14 year old !

Click to expand...

I might have to agree with you. I can't get my 14 year old to do her homework, let alone think she would invest this much time into a forum.

later.

KWalker said:

II'm sorry to single you out UnXmas but when you called the kid crazy, but then said this, I think people would have different opinions on who the crazy one is.



Junk food isn't good for anybody, crohns or not. To say that eating junk food is better than eating healthy is insane. That's like saying eating Hamburger Helper is better than eating a salad. Nobody would take that seriously. Just because fiber doesn't work, there are many diets that exclude fiber, or are low fiber diets.

Click to expand...

Did I call him crazy? When?

I said that diet works for some people, but not for me - I also said it's good to share what's worked for you. Eating sugar doesn't make my illness worse. Eating fibre in large quantities consistently makes my symptoms worse - which means foods generally classified as "healthy", like whole grains and raw veg, make me ill.

I have no appetite and so have a lot of trouble gaining enough weight, so sugar and high calorie foods are useful for me - if I filled up on veggies and salad, I'd starve. I know there are some healthy fats, but incorporating sugar and some unhealthy fats into my diet is the only practical way for me to eat enough since I can't physically handle large portions. If someone's overweight, they may benefit from a different diet, but "junk" food in moderation is fine for most people, those with Crohn's or otherwise.

I just don't think it's right to imply a specific diet is universally good for this disease. And, as I said in my previous posts, it can be a bad thing to try to get people believing they can cure their illness, because it will inevitably lead to disappointment in most cases. That's been my experience when people (nutritionists, etc.) told me I could get better.

The anti-Candida diet and Specific Carbohydrate Diet DOES help. But they're extremely strict and leaves you with very little options for food, which is why so many people give up and then it doesn't work.

My simple tips that I've learned (which are difficult enough for me to follow)

-No alcohol
-No Corn (or other bad fibers like raisins)
-No wheat/gluten or yeast of ANY kind.
-No fruit juices (except maybe watered down Cranberry juice on occasion)
-No dairy products
-No peanuts or other high fiber nuts
-Raw vegetables are a no no. (especially broccoli)
-no sugar of any kind (including fruits)

Considering wheat and sugar are added to most processed foods, this makes life extremely difficult, which is why obeying a Crohn's diet of any kind is near impossible.

What are you left with? Tuna, Chicken, and millet rice for breakfast.
YAY!

Sorry, I am very bitter these days after my surgery.

I also participate in a guitar-centric forum. Sometimes people sign up just to cause discord & arguments. They are referred to as "trolls". Do you have people that do this here, too?

Occasionally Area Man, but not as much. I also use a few car forums so I definitely have had the entertainment from some trolls before lol

Eating sugar doesn't make my illness worse.

Click to expand...

What I imagine you mean here is that eating sugar doesn't make your symptoms worse. Illness and symptoms are two completely different things. While you may not experience symtpoms after eating certain foods (nor did I... I never had a problem with dairy, red meat, sugar, wheat but I decided to cut them all out) like sugar, you may be causing issues that would indeed progress the disease. Gut flora is extremely important with Crohn's disease and processed sugars will knock your delicate balance out of place and start feeding yeasts and E coli bacteria specifically. The gut is a monumental part of your Immune system, so feeding the malicious bacteria in your gut sugar definitely has an effect.

I have no appetite and so have a lot of trouble gaining enough weight, so sugar and high calorie foods are useful for me

Click to expand...

You know when I was first diagnosed I had a poor diet and didn't really have much of an appetite either but when I started including healthy foods my appetite came back. I believe, and it's really just a theory, that possibly your body is telling you to stop feeding it awful processed foods so you have a decreased appetite.

if I filled up on veggies and salad, I'd starve.

Click to expand...

I guess it depends what your definition of starving here is. If my sheer stomach capacity than sure but I think the more important factor here is the nutrients you would be getting. By going off of a "full" or "not full" system you aren't accounting for your body actually starving of nutrients. I believe that's the link in why people will have a huge meal and then be hungry again a few hours later... It isn't your body saying it needs to be "full" it's your body saying it needs nutrients. When you eat nutrient dense foods, you can eat less and retain more protein, minerals, vitamins, enzymes, phytonutrients, amino acids, fat, cholesterol... etc etc.

If someone's overweight, they may benefit from a different diet,

Click to expand...

That's not what diets are for contrary to popular belief. Diets are there to get people healthy and in many cases that is to actually gain weight, which if given the proper diet will happen.

I just don't think it's right to imply a specific diet is universally good for this disease.

Click to expand...

No one is implying that. Simon is sharing what works for him and even if it doesn't cure him I'm glad cause it gives us more anecdotal evidence that things like curcumin has an effect on us.

That's been my experience when people (nutritionists, etc.) told me I could get better.

Click to expand...

I wouldn't let a nutritionist tell me the time, let alone tell me what to put into my body. Nutritionist education is very lax here in the states, I've been to 3 and I'll tell you most of the people on this forum knew more than all of them.

Gianni

I feel this thread has run it's course. Thank you all for sharing your feelings

Thread closed.