Crohn's Disease Forum » Diet, Fitness, and Supplements » Ketogenic diets, any risks?


 
03-28-2018, 03:43 AM   #151
Crohn2357
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hugh, may I ask you to read this article and write me your opinion about fish oil supplementation?

I have been taking high quality fish oil for years, and after reading that article I decided stop the supplementation and observe the effects.

Well, after stopping it, my rectal bleeding has increased massively. In addition, a very mild arthritic pain in my knees has started to happen (comes and goes). I am not sure if this is related to my stopping fish oil supplementation or not. It could also be my experiments with eating fruits (fructose causes these problems too). Or maybe a combination of things. Hard to know definitively.

What are your opinions about PUFA avoidance and many other claims (or implications) of Ray Peat's article?

The main reason I had been taking fish oil was to increase neurogenesis and enhance cerebral functions in general.
04-06-2018, 05:24 PM   #153
hugh
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I found the answer: 30 percent.
It's a good starting point....
Some people will do better with less and some with more.
it's only one part of a diet and getting the 'right' amount of carbs without getting anything else 'right' probably wont help much.

Like everything it is a 'u'-shaped curve, too much is harmful, too little is harmful and in the middle is a range that seems optimal.
We have the ability to create glucose from protein through the process of neoglucogenesis so erring to the low side may be more beneficial (decreased microbial activity and intermittent ketosis)

hugh, may I ask you to read this article and write me your opinion about fish oil supplementation?
my opinion (and i'm just some random guy on the internet pushing his half baked belief system) is very much in line with Paul Jaminet's advice
If you can get fresh oily fish and cook them gently then that is the best way to get fish oil [1]

Well, after stopping it, my rectal bleeding has increased massively. In addition, a very mild arthritic pain in my knees has started to happen (comes and goes). I am not sure if this is related to my stopping fish oil supplementation or not. It could also be my experiments with eating fruits (fructose causes these problems too). Or maybe a combination of things. Hard to know definitively.
Not so hard, try the fish oil with fruit and no fish oil with no fruit.......
My money is on the fruit being the problem.....

What are your opinions about PUFA avoidance and many other claims (or implications) of Ray Peat's article?
Way over my pay grade...
I'm very OK with the concept that 'we' eat way too much PUFA, and that most of it is toxic and rancid, and that vegetable ['seed] oils are a brilliant way to sell a toxic waste product as a healthy choice....
But that doesn't mean none is the right amount....

I'm not up on Ray Peat, and a quick google hasn't really changed my mind (much) [2]....
Anything on the WAP/Ancestral/Paleo/GAPS?whatever spectrum is going to be a good starting point, and arguing about which is better is like arguing if Nike are better than New Balance.
your feet are different to mine and you run differently too.
I understand a few of his ideas but they are not applicable to everyone all the time.

I'm still a paleo guy (but figure out what paleo foods you can tolerate and how much is the right amount). but i prefer "ancestral" as paleo has too many connotations and stereotypes.

[1] Fish, Not Fish Oil Capsules
"In fact, clinical trials have compared eating fish to eating fish oil capsules. Fish consumption has an excellent record in a number of clinical trials, but fish oil capsule supplements do not. "
http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2010/06...-oil-capsules/

[2] The Peat-atarian Diet For Those Of Us With Average IQs
"What makes the Peat Diet unique is that it approaches nutrition from a hormonal perspective. It is all about reducing chronic stress. To me the Peat Diet appears to be a modern fix to the WAPF Diet."
"it appears to me that the person most likely to benefit from this diet will be someone who has had a long history with dieting, specifically low-carb dieting. Weight loss has stalled. Most likely the person is female and possibly with a low thyroid. Ideally the person would be able to handle dairy. That is not to say others wouldn’t benefit, but that seems like the person who would get the most results."

https://criticalmas.com/2012/11/the-...h-average-iqs/
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Last edited by hugh; 04-07-2018 at 04:11 AM.
04-07-2018, 11:00 AM   #154
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I started antibiotics yesterday because of the bleeding.

My money is on the fruit being the problem.....
Yes, it is more probable.
04-11-2018, 03:42 PM   #155
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I found what's been causing the problem: a plant extract I have been using as a natural migraine prophylactic for a month. It's Feverfew. A potent inhibitor of prostaglandin synthesis, which, although known as pro-inflammatory, seems to have gut protective properties.

The initial glimmer of our current recognition that PGE2 is critical to the homeostasis of the gastrointestinal (GI) tract dates to 1938, when acetylsalicylic acid, or aspirin, was first reported to cause gastric hemorrhage [4], which in 1955 was attributed to its potential to promote erosive gastritis [5]. The roots of our mechanistic understanding for these observations derive from two Nobel Prize-winning discoveries, namely the purification and structural characterization of prostaglandins by Sune Bergström and Bengt Samuelsson, and the subsequent discovery by John Vane that aspirin inhibited the enzymatic production of prostaglandins. Today, it is recognized that abundant production of PGE2 by the constitutively active cyclooxygenase-1 in gastric epithelial cells is critical to their protection from a harsh acidic environment. It is now appreciated that PGE2 promotes epithelial integrity in other parts of the GI tract and indeed in other organs. That PGE2 protects against epithelial injury is evident from its anti-apoptotic effects in a mouse model of radiation colitis [6]. Although PGE2 is classically thought of as a pro-inflammatory molecule, this reputation largely reflects its actions on the microvasculature, but—interestingly—its effects on leukocytes are predominantly suppressive, as exemplified by its contribution to immune tolerance in the gut [7]. The increased risk of Crohn’s disease associated with the use of aspirin and other NSAIDs [8] may therefore be explained by the loss of both the anti-inflammatory and epithelial-protective actions of PGE2.

Returning to the challenge of curbing fibrotic responses, significant data—mostly from studies of the lung, liver, kidney, and skin—support the hypothesis that PGE2 exerts anti-fibrotic effects independently of its anti-inflammatory and epithelial-protective actions. This reflects that PGE2 can also inhibit nearly all aspects of fibroblast activation via its ability to increase intracellular cyclic AMP [9]; in vivo administration of PGE2 can prevent lung fibrosis in mouse models [10]. The paper by Baird and colleagues reports for the first time that exogenous administration of PGE2 ameliorated intestinal fibrosis in the commonly employed 2,4,6-trinitrobenzene sulfonic acid (TNBS) murine model. The authors also examined the effects of PGE2 on intestinal fibroblasts in vitro, and like fibroblasts from other organs, PGE2 directly inhibited fibroblast proliferation and collagen production. Since in this in vivo study PGE2 was co-administered with TNBS, it inhibited intestinal inflammation as well. This experimental design, therefore, fails to distinguish whether PGE2 is capable of actually reversing preexisting intestinal fibrosis or whether it merely limits the inflammatory damage that culminates in fibrosis. As noted earlier, an independent anti-fibrotic effect is essential if we are to argue that PGE2 is superior to existing immunomodulatory drugs used to treat IBD. Although its recognized direct inhibitory effects on fibroblast functions would predict that this would be the case, a proof-of-principle experiment would require its administration later in the disease model when intestinal fibrosis is already established.
From: Prostaglandin E2 and Polyenylphosphatidylcholine: Stiff Competition for the Fibrotic Complications of Inflammatory Bowel Disease?

To add an interesting information, fish oil and PUFAs in general are known to increase prostaglandin synthesis. This may be an additional mechanism (the other being their immunosuppressive effects) to fish oil's positive effects on Crohn's Disease.

So, feverfew inhibited its synthesis, and my stopping taking fish oil caused a further decrease in prostaglandin levels. I think the more important perpetrator here is feverfew. I am stopping taking it.
05-14-2018, 11:57 PM   #156
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Hello hugh, I would like to learn your opinion regarding dried fruit consumption. As I have said before, the only safe starches available to me are white rice and green bananas. I can’t eat fruits, but i might be able to eat dried mulberries without much of an issue (just started experimenting with it).

This is the rather crude way of looking at these foods from a paleo perspective, though i agree that it is easy to overeat with these things. https://paleoleap.com/dried-fruit-and-sugar/

What do you think about dried berries as a safe carb source? Eating it every day? Once when i learn the exact quantities i tend to eat i will let you know.

Possible problems: SIBO, fungal overgrowth, crohn’s flaring up, arthritis, migraine attacks from the fructose, deterioration of oral health,increased inflammation. This is my speculation.

Do you have any cautioning?

I need natural carb alternatives in my diet. Struggling with this.

Edit: I measured the amount. 250 grams of dried mulberries a day. Normally the sugar concentration of berries is lower than that of the other kinds of fruits; but since this is a dried fruit it doesn’t have water in it so it’s all sugar and fibre by weight.

Other than this the only carb I eat is 100 grams of white rice ever day. The dried fruit gives me a much-needed energy; but i fear it’s very dangerous to eat it because of its inflammogenic effects. Its other effects on me are great though: greatly increased energy, mental concentration, motivation, productivity, reduced stress[1] etc.

[1]: "This study provides novel evidence for the glucocorticoid-metabolic-brain feedback pathway in humans. Previous findings suggested that anabolic (or anticatabolic) effects of consuming highly palatable and calorically dense foods or beverages signal the brain to turn off the HPA stress response (14). Teleologically, this makes sense because, in anticipation of or during stress, elevated concentrations of glucocorticoids such as cortisol stimulate catabolism to ensure fuel for the brain and the fight or flight response (27). During recovery from stress, these steroid hormones promote energy recovery by motivating energy intake and stimulating lipogenesis and glycogen synthesis (28). Unlike artificial sweeteners, sugar may provide the fuel needed to meet the energetic demands of stress, which may reduce the need for glucocorticoid-driven energy catabolism and mobilization of the body's energy stores. Consistent with this notion, rodent data have shown that sucrose consumption prevents body catabolism and the activation in the HPA axis (8, 10, 29). The results we present here show that humans' ingestion of sucrose, but not artificially, sweetened beverages reduced stress-induced increases in circulating cortisol."

Excerpt From
Excessive Sugar Consumption May Be a Difficult Habit to Break: A View From the Brain and Body
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4454811/

Last edited by Crohn2357; 05-15-2018 at 03:18 PM.
05-15-2018, 10:01 PM   #157
hugh
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Hello hugh, I would like to learn your opinion regarding dried fruit consumption.
I'll say it again,
I'm just some guy who likes to tell people what they are doing wrong,
doesn't mean i know what i'm talking about......

Short answer - suck it and see.....

I think dried fruit is evil (on it's own that is, a bit mixed into some paleo dish is fine)

As I have said before, the only safe starches available to me are white rice and green bananas.
but....
I need natural carb alternatives in my diet. Struggling with this.
So, you 'need' variety not carbs?
Do you have any idea of your actual carb consumption?
How 'bout rice syrup - glucose no fructose

A big factor is easily digested carbs so there are less left for the colon bugs, doesn't mean SIBO isn't an issue though

though i agree that it is easy to overeat with these things.
Absofuckinlutely.......

What do you think about dried berries as a safe carb source? Eating it every day? Once when i learn the exact quantities i tend to eat i will let you know.
Berries are the best fruit for antioxidant/fructose ratio but colourful veggies are even better

Possible problems: SIBO, fungal overgrowth, crohn’s flaring up, arthritis, migraine attacks from the fructose, deterioration of oral health,increased inflammation. This is my speculation.
maybe, Dose and individual tolerance related

Do you have any cautioning?
go easy, have with low carb foods to buffer Glycemic Load

I need natural carb alternatives in my diet. Struggling with this.
I get it ( i fall off the waggon and binge on 'healthy' shit too) but WHY?
- psychological? - emotional?
Not physical

Other than this the only carb I eat is 100 grams of white rice ever day. The dried fruit gives me a much-needed energy; but i fear it’s very dangerous to eat it because of its inflammogenic effects. Its other effects on me are great though: greatly increased energy, mental concentration, motivation, productivity, reduced stress[1] etc.
Why not more rice?
Aim for 150gm of carbs a day and see

Carbs is only one small(?) factor affecting stress...
Have you tried meditation or some other practice (yoga, laughing, excersise etc)?
05-15-2018, 10:56 PM   #158
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I'll say it again,
I'm just some guy who likes to tell people what they are doing wrong,
doesn't mean i know what i'm talking about......

Short answer - suck it and see.....

I think dried fruit is evil (on it's own that is, a bit mixed into some paleo dish is fine)


but....

So, you 'need' variety not carbs?
Do you have any idea of your actual carb consumption?
How 'bout rice syrup - glucose no fructose

A big factor is easily digested carbs so there are less left for the colon bugs, doesn't mean SIBO isn't an issue though


Absofuckinlutely.......


Berries are the best fruit for antioxidant/fructose ratio but colourful veggies are even better


maybe, Dose and individual tolerance related


go easy, have with low carb foods to buffer Glycemic Load


I get it ( i fall off the waggon and binge on 'healthy' shit too) but WHY?
- psychological? - emotional?
Not physical


Why not more rice?
Aim for 150gm of carbs a day and see

Carbs is only one small(?) factor affecting stress...
Have you tried meditation or some other practice (yoga, laughing, excersise etc)?
Yeah a few hours after my last edit I came to the same conclusions as you. I have been eating 80-100 grams of white rice and that was the problem. I doubled that amount, and also increased my coconut oil and meat intake. I think this will take care of it.

At first the fruits made me feel good, but then its effects become reversed: a disturbed, hyper-excited state, even lower productivity and higher stress.

You asked great questions. I could write more but I am not on the PC. I basically agree with everything you said in this post. Thank you for writing.
05-16-2018, 07:15 AM   #159
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The funny thing about natural carbs vs. not is that table sugar is actually low fodmap and I do better on it than I do with a lot of unrefined carbs like rices, quinoa, etc. which are not low fodmap.
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05-16-2018, 08:54 AM   #160
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White rice is 100% starch, and it gets converted into glucose in the body. AFAIK, starch by itself is not considered as fodmap, fodmaps are short chain carbohydrates.

Table sugar is sucrose which is half glucose and half fructose, theoretically if what you’re reacting to is the fodmaps then you should do worse on the table sugar.

Maybe there are other issues going on that you are not aware of.
05-17-2018, 10:49 AM   #161
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You're right about the grains, I was misremembering, but sucrose is considered low-fodmap by all sources I've checked.
05-20-2018, 04:12 PM   #162
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You're right about the grains, I was misremembering, but sucrose is considered low-fodmap by all sources I've checked.
These might interest you:

https://www.thepaleomom.com/is-fruct...alth-problems/

https://www.thepaleomom.com/modifyin...p-intolerance/
06-02-2018, 08:37 AM   #163
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Hello hugh

I have a question for you.

I have been avoiding mushrooms for years, because yeast in general make my symptoms worse, and I have always thought mushrooms would be bad for me to ingest for that reason. This avoidance is purely on principle, I haven't had a problem with mushrooms experimentally (though I don't have much of an experience, I just cut them from my diet "a priori" years ago). I have always assumed mushrooms could cause yeast build-up in the gut, and that could get into my bloodstream due to leaky gut.

What do you think about this idea? This is only my speculation, and I want to know your opinion about it.

Can we say that cooking the mushrooms could destroy the cellular structure (kill the cells) of the mushrooms, and thus prevent the problem from occuring?

***

There is also cross-reactivity?

Mushrooms

Mushrooms are members of the fungi family and they can cross-react with Candida, meaning your body and your immune system may confuse them with Candida. This can cause you to have an inflammatory reaction to mushrooms and can interfere with your treatment.
From: https://www.amymyersmd.com/2016/07/9...-have-candida/

It should be noted that Sarah Ballantyne has included mushrooms in AIP diet. If this was a case, she wouldn't include mushrooms into her diet protocol (or, another possibility might be that she doesn't know this).
https://www.thepaleomom.com/start-he...mune-protocol/
https://www.thepaleomom.com/wiki/mushroom/

Another opinion:
Avoid Molds, But Most Mushrooms Are OK
Much of the worry about fungi (mushrooms) in the diet of Candida sufferers is unwarranted. Mushrooms can be a healthy part of your Candida diet, and in fact their immune-stimulatory properties may be quite helpful. If you are foraging, remember to be careful of poisonous mushrooms. And if you notice any mold growing on your mushrooms, it’s best to throw them away. But in general, mushrooms can be a sensible addition to your eating plan.
Mold is a different matter. Try to avoid foods that are moldy, including those where mold is an intentional part of the food (like blue cheeses or camembert). Mold simply isn’t a nutritive thing for you to eat, and it can trigger unpleasant allergy symptoms or mold sensitivities. For the same reasons, you should ensure that you don’t have black mold in your house.
From:https://www.thecandidadiet.com/molds-mushrooms-candida/

Taxonomy, terminology
https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-d...ungi-and-mould
https://www.bioidea.net/resources/wh...ms-and-yeasts/
http://www.differencebetween.net/sci...st-and-fungus/
https://www.badgut.org/information-c...mould-allergy/

Edit: Found this:

Fungal Infection: In extremely rare cases fruiting fungi have been know to infect immune comprised people (Speller and Maciver 1971; Kern and Uecker 1986). Although most of these fungi are soil inhabitants that infect through wounds, it is likely that all fungi can potentially be harmful to a damaged immune system. These fungi can be more aggressive than the obligate pathogens we are use to, and they can be inordinately difficult to treat. Luckily most of our immune systems will easily take care of those wayward mushroom spores and active mycelium that enter our bodily kingdom. However if you are diabetic, in treatment for cancer, have had an organ transplant or a serious disease like AIDS... you definitely will want to inactivate live mushroom tissue by thoroughly cooking.
...
Science Lesson: You may have heard somewhere along the line that we are more closely related to fungus than plants. Fungi are one of the steps on the evolutionary road from algae to animals... plants veered off on a different route. Some had theorized this was the case by comparing physical traits fungi have in common with the animal kingdom, like chitin cell walls. More recently genetic relationship studies have validated the evolutionary tie between fungi and animals. Our evolutionary kinship is also the reason fungal infections can be very difficult to treat. The fungal metabolism is so similar to ours, it is very difficult to target a fungus without gravely affecting the human host as well.
From: http://everythingmushrooms.com/a-few...rooms-you-eat/

Last edited by Crohn2357; 06-02-2018 at 03:44 PM.
06-02-2018, 08:42 PM   #164
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I have been avoiding mushrooms for years, because yeast in general make my symptoms worse, and I have always thought mushrooms would be bad for me to ingest for that reason. This avoidance is purely on principle, I haven't had a problem with mushrooms experimentally (though I don't have much of an experience, I just cut them from my diet "a priori" years ago). I have always assumed mushrooms could cause yeast build-up in the gut, and that could get into my bloodstream due to leaky gut.
What do you think about this idea? This is only my speculation, and I want to know your opinion about it.
Can we say that cooking the mushrooms could destroy the cellular structure (kill the cells) of the mushrooms, and thus prevent the problem from occuring?
Once again. - i’m just some guy who likes to share his opinion about food online, doesn’t mean I know anything……

That said, i don't come to the same conclusion....

Obviously if you try mushrooms and notice any worsening of anything then stop immediately….
Some people react to yeast, so they should avoid mushrooms or test carefully,
Some people can’t digest them and may have digestive distress,
And who knows, some might have problems that take longer to present…...

But if I said don’t ingest any bacteria because a particular bacteria was harmful then you would see that it is obviously false, likewise ‘don’t eat any fungus because this one is bad’ doesn’t make any sense at all.
I put more credence in the theory that beneficial yeasts could be used to out-compete harmful ones. [1]

All that being said, we are talking about a completely different thing.
Mushrooms are NOT food for fungus/yeast, so if there is an intolerance/reaction then avoid, but that applies to all foods.
Many mushrooms have medicinal qualities, but do your own research and test with caution….[2]
Cooking is a good idea because it kills any other soil based potential pathogens and the fungus itself as well as making them more digestible.

short answer - suck it and see......

[1] Study: Good Yeast vs. Bad Yeast, the Differences Unveiled
“Currently, it’s common practice to use Saccharomyces to produce drugs against Candida.”
https://www.rdmag.com/article/2016/1...ences-unveiled

not sure how all the science stacks up (hype vs. efficacy etc), just that overall seems to be a positive for many intestinal complaints but not hugely so.

Top 9 Proven Health Benefits of Saccharomyces Boulardii (S. boulardii)

https://www.selfhacked.com/blog/s-bo...'s_Disease

[2] keep in mind this is an add for a product…...
Revolutionize Your Health with SurThrival’s Medicinal Mushroom Extracts
”The amazing health benefits of mushrooms are primarily attributable to two classes of nutrients: triterpenes and polysaccharides.
Trierpenes are compounds with powerful adaptogenic properties — they help the body deal with stress by regulating and normalizing bodily functions. Triterpenes also increase oxygen uptake and support liver health and detoxification.
Research has shown that certain polysaccharides found in medicinal mushrooms, called beta-glucans, have the ability to modulate the immune system by lowering the overactive (auto-immune) immune system, and stimulating the under-active (immuno-deficient) immune system. When used for a period of time, beta-glucans build, strengthen and balance the immune system. Beta-glucans have received a lot of attention recently for their anti-cancer potential, as the connection between immune function and cancer has become increasingly accepted in the medical world.”

http://www.liveinthenow.com/article/...optimal-health
06-03-2018, 03:17 AM   #165
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Thanks. I should send you a check as a consultation fee.
06-13-2018, 08:21 AM   #166
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keto diet is actually the worst diet ever. believe me! best lose weight pills 2018

Last edited by sam128; 06-14-2018 at 02:37 AM.
06-13-2018, 05:52 PM   #167
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keto diet is actually the worst diet ever.
because.....?
06-14-2018, 02:18 AM   #168
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because.....?
because i was constantly angry and hungry and seen no results at all
09-24-2018, 06:01 AM   #169
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because i was constantly angry and hungry and seen no results at all
because.??????
09-26-2018, 09:38 AM   #170
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because i was constantly angry and hungry and seen no results at all
Sounds like you didn't fully convert to ketosis
10-24-2018, 12:40 PM   #171
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i get sheep fat and render it to cook with.
lots and lots of sheep fat , and lots of coconut fat......
Started doing this.

https://paleoleap.com/rendering-fat/

I use the wet rendering, because it seems healthier than dry rendering.

Rendered sheep fat is a good alternative to coconut oil.
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