Crohn's Disease Forum » General IBD Discussion » Crohn's after antibiotics, anyone else?


 
08-03-2013, 11:51 AM   #91
wildbill_52280
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The antibiotic was tetracycline, and it was not the first time I took it. I think that my immune system was modulated at that time and the antibiotic did something. Flagyl also send me to hospital twice for a severe flare and probiotics didn't do a thing.
Here is a study that linked tetracycline antibiotics to increased risk of development of acne. specifically doxycycline, which i have taken 3 course totaling about 6 months total time on these from about 2000-2006, then a course of amoxicillin in 2008 where crohn's then emerged.

http://www.nature.com/ajg/journal/v1...g2010303a.html
08-03-2013, 01:37 PM   #92
Ihurt
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I guess it all depends on the person and how their body reacts. Some think that when you ingest certain antibiotics that they kill off certain bacteria and leave some potentially bad ones to grow out of control. Now in some people nothing will happen. But then in others I think maybe the immune system looks at the bacteria as a foreign invader and just goes crazy and attacks. I mean this is just a theory. It is kind of like when you get the Flu or a cold, the virus itself is not really hurting you at all, it is your bodies reaction to the flu that is hurting you. I am thinking some of us have more aggressive immune systems and that something goes haywire and the immune system does not know how to shut off and just starts attacking blindly even in harmless situations. I mean it may even be a brain disease if you look at it this way. The mind controls everything. What if the brain gets a glitch or something just goes wrong and that control mechanism gets disrupted? So now you brain is telling your gut something is wrong and sends up the red flag and send in the fighters, but just keeps sending in the fighters and does not stop. So when the fighters get there and there is nothing really there to fight, it just starts attacking the organ itself looking at it as if it is an invader due to the brain not shutting that fight mechanism off. I mean Gosh there are just so many theories out there. Then you have the people who have Crohns that have Never taken antibiotics at all. How do you explain that? It is just so complex....







Here is a study that linked tetracycline antibiotics to increased risk of development of acne. specifically doxycycline, which i have taken 3 course totaling about 6 months total time on these from about 2000-2006, then a course of amoxicillin in 2008 where crohn's then emerged.

http://www.nature.com/ajg/journal/v1...g2010303a.html
08-03-2013, 06:45 PM   #93
Beach
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Not Crohns, but another GI condition. Saw this mention on another sight about an observational study finding an association between the development of Celiac disease and antibiotic use.

"Study: Celiac disease associated with prior antibiotic use"

http://www.perskyfarms.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=18531

This is the first study to find a positive association between antibiotic use and subsequent CD.
Antibiotic exposure was also linked to small-intestinal inflammation and to normal mucosa
with positive CD serology, both of which may represent early CD. The consistent association
between the multiple groups, the slightly stronger association between repeated use of
antibiotics compared with no use as well as the association with use of certain antibiotics
(e.g., metronidazole) and CD may suggest that antibiotic exposure, possibly through a
changed gut microbiota, plays a pathogenic role in early CD development. However, given
the lack of time-response effect, within the limited time window studied, we cannot rule out
non-causal explanations for our findings.
08-03-2013, 09:47 PM   #94
wildbill_52280
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I guess it all depends on the person and how their body reacts. Some think that when you ingest certain antibiotics that they kill off certain bacteria and leave some potentially bad ones to grow out of control. Now in some people nothing will happen. But then in others I think maybe the immune system looks at the bacteria as a foreign invader and just goes crazy and attacks. I mean this is just a theory. It is kind of like when you get the Flu or a cold, the virus itself is not really hurting you at all, it is your bodies reaction to the flu that is hurting you. I am thinking some of us have more aggressive immune systems and that something goes haywire and the immune system does not know how to shut off and just starts attacking blindly even in harmless situations. I mean it may even be a brain disease if you look at it this way. The mind controls everything. What if the brain gets a glitch or something just goes wrong and that control mechanism gets disrupted? So now you brain is telling your gut something is wrong and sends up the red flag and send in the fighters, but just keeps sending in the fighters and does not stop. So when the fighters get there and there is nothing really there to fight, it just starts attacking the organ itself looking at it as if it is an invader due to the brain not shutting that fight mechanism off. I mean Gosh there are just so many theories out there. Then you have the people who have Crohns that have Never taken antibiotics at all. How do you explain that? It is just so complex....
the amount of fiber in your diet and also vitamin d levels come into play.and possibly now some new factors like sucralose and sacharrin which destroy intestinal bacteria in large amounts. those are all the main variables. those will likely explain why other people dont get crohn's when on antibiotics or do get crohn's when not on antibiotics.
08-03-2013, 10:41 PM   #95
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I found this post interesting! So I ended up with C-diff after taking Augmentin for a Sinus infection. The c-diff took many cycles of Vancomycin to finally clear up, but my stomach never went back to normal. After 4 years of the docs saying it was just IBS, I switched to a new GI who did another scope and found the UC. She was the first one who told me that I may have had UC that was lying dormant and the c-diff triggered it to flare (being that people with IBD are more prone to c-diff), or vise versa - what we had thought beforehand which was that the c-diff caused prolonged inflammation leading to the UC. I will never know the answer to which came first - much like the chicken or the egg question, but I am glad to see I am not the only one who ran into this situation!
08-04-2013, 10:03 AM   #96
Ihurt
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Wow, that is terrible. I have been on low dose augmentin for 8 months now to prevent UTI's I get. I hate being on this stuff. I also have to take Lots and lots of probiotics as well. Just out of curiosity, were you taking probiotics while you were on the augmentin? I know C-diff can cuase the whole intestines to swell up and inflame. I mean put it this way, if you had a completely healthy gut before the augmentin, then I would say it was definitely the C-diff that caused the UC. That is a big worry of mine, getting C-diff from being on the antibiotics for so long. I mean I am taking lots of probiotics though like over 100 billion counts a day as well as taking florastor and culturelle( these two are known to help prevent C-diff.) I am sorry you went through all this.







I found this post interesting! So I ended up with C-diff after taking Augmentin for a Sinus infection. The c-diff took many cycles of Vancomycin to finally clear up, but my stomach never went back to normal. After 4 years of the docs saying it was just IBS, I switched to a new GI who did another scope and found the UC. She was the first one who told me that I may have had UC that was lying dormant and the c-diff triggered it to flare (being that people with IBD are more prone to c-diff), or vise versa - what we had thought beforehand which was that the c-diff caused prolonged inflammation leading to the UC. I will never know the answer to which came first - much like the chicken or the egg question, but I am glad to see I am not the only one who ran into this situation!
08-04-2013, 02:44 PM   #97
wildbill_52280
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I found this post interesting! So I ended up with C-diff after taking Augmentin for a Sinus infection. The c-diff took many cycles of Vancomycin to finally clear up, but my stomach never went back to normal. After 4 years of the docs saying it was just IBS, I switched to a new GI who did another scope and found the UC. She was the first one who told me that I may have had UC that was lying dormant and the c-diff triggered it to flare (being that people with IBD are more prone to c-diff), or vise versa - what we had thought beforehand which was that the c-diff caused prolonged inflammation leading to the UC. I will never know the answer to which came first - much like the chicken or the egg question, but I am glad to see I am not the only one who ran into this situation!


Augmentin is Amoxicillin-clavulanic acid, thats what gave me crohns. when i took it i got over my bronchitis after a week or so and felt better, then by the second week i felt much worse, hair started falliing out, i felt insane. then had to quit my job after 4 months after. slowly ibd emerged until being diagnosed a year later. never felt the same since.

to me their is hardly any difference between c diff and IBD, its all chronic diarrhea that is somewhat life threatening.

its already an accepted fact that antibiotics cause temporary colitis and temporary diarrhea. so then its not that much of a stretch to say it also causes more permanent diarrhea, like c diff and IBD.
Well they acknowledge c diff comes after antibiotics, but that say the cause is c diff not antibiotics, conveniently protecting the pharma and medical establishment. they say c diff is the cause of c diff, and treat it with more antibiotics. and it actually may never be acknowledged that antibiotics can cause IBD, but now there is good scientific evidence.
08-04-2013, 04:15 PM   #98
Ihurt
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I agree. But I gotta tell you, every doctor I have ever asked about there being a connection to getting IBD when taking antibiotics, they all say No! Unreal. Even when there is evidence that people Have come down with it after taking them. I remember telling my doctor that since I have been on low dose antibiotics to prevent the bad UTI's I was getting that I was scared it was really messing up my gut and that I was worried about developing Crohns. She told me, " No antibiotics cannot cause Crohns otherwise there would be tons of people walking around out there with Crohns". She then went on to say that lots of antibotics are taken by hundreds of thousands of people and they do not get Crohns from it!

I don't know, but if that is the case then we could also say hundreds of thousands of people lay in the sun everyday and some will get skin cancer but a lot of people wont! But they still know that being in the sun can and DOES cause skin cancer in some people and they will acknowledge that but they wont acknowledge that antibiotics can cause IBD and other issues. You are right, it is about protecting the Big Pharma.

I mean look, they even treat IBD with antibiotics and other meds which are known to be catastrophic to the gut and body as a whole. I don't get it. I sometimes wonder If they do not do this on purpose in order to keep people ill. I mean think about it, they give you meds that maybe help some people feel better, but in reality it is likely causing more damage in the long run. I seriously think they could come up with an answer to a lot of these diseases if they really wanted to. But that is just it, They Do not want to! If they did, they could not charge the insurance companies $6000 every time a person gets an infusion of humira or whatever drug they are selling out there. It is so corrupt. No, in this day and age we as citizens have to advocate for our own health and make up our own minds on what we think is best for us. That is sad. Gone are the days when doctors were out to really help the person get better.....








[QUOTE=wildbill_

its already an accepted fact that antibiotics cause temporary colitis and temporary diarrhea. so then its not that much of a stretch to say it also causes more permanent diarrhea, like c diff and IBD.
Well they acknowledge c diff comes after antibiotics, but that say the cause is c diff not antibiotics, conveniently protecting the pharma and medical establishment. they say c diff is the cause of c diff, and treat it with more antibiotics. and it actually may never be acknowledged that antibiotics can cause IBD, but now there is good scientific evidence.[/QUOTE]
08-05-2013, 09:59 AM   #99
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I agree. But I gotta tell you, every doctor I have ever asked about there being a connection to getting IBD when taking antibiotics, they all say No! Unreal. Even when there is evidence that people Have come down with it after taking them. I remember telling my doctor that since I have been on low dose antibiotics to prevent the bad UTI's I was getting that I was scared it was really messing up my gut and that I was worried about developing Crohns. She told me, " No antibiotics cannot cause Crohns otherwise there would be tons of people walking around out there with Crohns". She then went on to say that lots of antibotics are taken by hundreds of thousands of people and they do not get Crohns from it!

I don't know, but if that is the case then we could also say hundreds of thousands of people lay in the sun everyday and some will get skin cancer but a lot of people wont! But they still know that being in the sun can and DOES cause skin cancer in some people and they will acknowledge that but they wont acknowledge that antibiotics can cause IBD and other issues. You are right, it is about protecting the Big Pharma.

I mean look, they even treat IBD with antibiotics and other meds which are known to be catastrophic to the gut and body as a whole. I don't get it. I sometimes wonder If they do not do this on purpose in order to keep people ill. I mean think about it, they give you meds that maybe help some people feel better, but in reality it is likely causing more damage in the long run. I seriously think they could come up with an answer to a lot of these diseases if they really wanted to. But that is just it, They Do not want to! If they did, they could not charge the insurance companies $6000 every time a person gets an infusion of humira or whatever drug they are selling out there. It is so corrupt. No, in this day and age we as citizens have to advocate for our own health and make up our own minds on what we think is best for us. That is sad. Gone are the days when doctors were out to really help the person get better.....
I don't disagree with the fact that money and profits play a big role in medicine, however, you have to take into account that here in the UK Crohn's is treated much the same as in the US in terms of the drugs and surgeries available and antibiotics are also widely used. The doctors who prescribe them here do not get any extra money for doing so as far as I know. I'm sure money is heavily involved in medical research in this country, and I'm not sure whether it plays a role in determining which treatments are available, but in terms of what gets handed out to patients, the NHS is under a lot of pressure to spend as little as possible.

I do know doctors have strict budgets to work to and have to justify that the treatments they used make the most sense financially. I know when I've been sent to specialist hospitals in London rather than my local hospitals, and when I've had unconventional surgeries (my surgeon has used some very new surgical techniques on me) the doctors had to be able to prove that there was a good chance that these methods and referrals stood a good chance of benefitting my health - they had to prove they were not throwing money away on something that wouldn't make me healthier.

They don't want us sick. They want us to take as few meds as possible. The term "aging population" gets thrown around a lot because there is simply not the money needed available to cope with a growing, aging population that's getting increasingly fatter and so developing more and more long term health problems. This would seem to imply that things here should be different from the US, but for Crohn's treatments and antibiotics they don't seem to be.

Your argument about the possibility that cures may be covered up, and medications that damage health being prescribed in order to keep people sick - can you apply it to the NHS? I'm not saying it doesn't apply, I'm genuinely asking because I really don't know, but it seems there'd be problems applying this to the UK, where antibiotics are used widely and definitely don't come with warnings that they might cause Crohn's here either.
08-05-2013, 11:25 AM   #100
Ihurt
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Unxmas: Hmm, you have a point, I am not sure how things go over there in the Uk since you have universal health care, and people are not charged for meds and such like they are here. I mean here in the States you practically have to be rich anymore to afford meds and medical tests. That or you have to have very good insurance( which is also becoming a thing of the past). Insurance companies are denying payment for more and more it seems these days. I mean I cannot speak for the health care system over there, but over here it is as corrupt as it comes. Almost like the opposite of over there. Where your doctors are trained not to push expensive tests and meds, here they will fall down backwards pushing these things on people( whether it is needed or not). They also charge a ton for them as well. I mean I find it outrageous that they can charge over $6000 for an MRI. Also they can charge $6000 for ONE humira infusion. Who the hell could afford that for very long? And insurance will not pay forever. Here is the thing, most people here, even ones with the best insurance have a 1 million dollar life coverage. Meaning if your bills go over the 1 million dollar mark, they no longer cover you. This is why some( very few) doctors here are starting to be hesitant about pushing tests and such. But I will say, this is a very small number of doctors. My gastro is one who does not push tests. Also my husband just saw a doctor ( endocrinologist) and he was appalled that our family doctor had my husband go through a bone density scan at his age ( he is 34). It is not like my husband had any issues. Well unfortunately the bone density scan our doctor did showed that my husband had full blown osteopenia in his hips! This is what brought us to the endocrinologist. Well he said first off, the doctor NEVER should have even did a bone density on him. He said they do not have many reliable trials or research to compare that of a healthy young guys bones since they do not normally do bone density scans on males his age. Well due to this test showing he has such bad osteoporosis, the doctor had to redo this bone density but on a machine that was correctly calibrated to my husbands age. Well it turned out he did NOT have osteoporosis at all. It showed some slight osteopenia, but the endo doc said this was likely in the normal range to guys his age. My whole point was that this doc said this is what happens when tests are done unnecessarily. He said it costs so much money and not to mention worry and stress, and you get false results some times.

But I seriously think if the medical researchers wanted to really find a cure for these diseases, they could. Think about it, when polio first was going around and people were getting it they sat on it, did nothing. But then President Roosevelt got it himself, then the medical researchers were all over that crap! In fact they developed a vaccine shortly afterwards to prevent it! Sadly, it was too late for President Roosevelt, but look how fast they came up with that vaccine! Believe me, if the president had not come down with polio, they would not have came up with a vaccine that quick. I can guarantee you if someone Big, like the president came down with Crohns or one his kids or family members, they would be all over finding a cause and a cure! There would be tons of money put into researching for a cause and a cure. Some say they even have a cure for AIDS now, but they are not letting it out to everyone. Even cancer. Think about it, they do not want to put out cures. If they did, all the hospitals and Big pharma would go out of business. Even over there in the UK I am sure.

I mean I could be way off here, but with how everything is going and all the corruption out there, nothing would surprise me. Even when my own mom was dying of cancer, I mean they told her she had 4th stage cancer. In other words, she was dying. The doctor there however did not tell us she had fourth stage until AFTER they had her go through many many expensive tests. After all that money and all those tests the doctor says to us " well, we could not really find it, but it did not really make too much difference because it is terminal anyhow. I cannot tell you how upset we all were and disgusted. The doctor even argued with my mom saying she HAD to get Chemo started right away! My mom said No, The Doctor told my mom she had to, that it would prolong her life possibly by 6 to 9 months!!!! Yeah, 9 months of complete agony and not to mention the $$$$ they would charge. My mom walked out while the doctor was still talking. I mean they did not want to take no for an answer. IT was ALL about the money, I mean anyone could see that. I guess after that and after seeing all I have been through with doctors and stuff, it kind of opens your eyes to things. At least over here. I mean I will say that at least over there in the UK they have it right by having free health care. It should be free everywhere really. That will NEVER happen here. To much big Greedy Cooperates here.
08-05-2013, 09:14 PM   #101
wildbill_52280
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Unxmas: Hmm, you have a point, I am not sure how things go over there in the Uk since you have universal health care, and people are not charged for meds and such like they are here. I mean here in the States you practically have to be rich anymore to afford meds and medical tests. That or you have to have very good insurance( which is also becoming a thing of the past). Insurance companies are denying payment for more and more it seems these days. I mean I cannot speak for the health care system over there, but over here it is as corrupt as it comes. Almost like the opposite of over there. Where your doctors are trained not to push expensive tests and meds, here they will fall down backwards pushing these things on people( whether it is needed or not). They also charge a ton for them as well. I mean I find it outrageous that they can charge over $6000 for an MRI. Also they can charge $6000 for ONE humira infusion. Who the hell could afford that for very long? And insurance will not pay forever. Here is the thing, most people here, even ones with the best insurance have a 1 million dollar life coverage. Meaning if your bills go over the 1 million dollar mark, they no longer cover you. This is why some( very few) doctors here are starting to be hesitant about pushing tests and such. But I will say, this is a very small number of doctors. My gastro is one who does not push tests. Also my husband just saw a doctor ( endocrinologist) and he was appalled that our family doctor had my husband go through a bone density scan at his age ( he is 34). It is not like my husband had any issues. Well unfortunately the bone density scan our doctor did showed that my husband had full blown osteopenia in his hips! This is what brought us to the endocrinologist. Well he said first off, the doctor NEVER should have even did a bone density on him. He said they do not have many reliable trials or research to compare that of a healthy young guys bones since they do not normally do bone density scans on males his age. Well due to this test showing he has such bad osteoporosis, the doctor had to redo this bone density but on a machine that was correctly calibrated to my husbands age. Well it turned out he did NOT have osteoporosis at all. It showed some slight osteopenia, but the endo doc said this was likely in the normal range to guys his age. My whole point was that this doc said this is what happens when tests are done unnecessarily. He said it costs so much money and not to mention worry and stress, and you get false results some times.

But I seriously think if the medical researchers wanted to really find a cure for these diseases, they could. Think about it, when polio first was going around and people were getting it they sat on it, did nothing. But then President Roosevelt got it himself, then the medical researchers were all over that crap! In fact they developed a vaccine shortly afterwards to prevent it! Sadly, it was too late for President Roosevelt, but look how fast they came up with that vaccine! Believe me, if the president had not come down with polio, they would not have came up with a vaccine that quick. I can guarantee you if someone Big, like the president came down with Crohns or one his kids or family members, they would be all over finding a cause and a cure! There would be tons of money put into researching for a cause and a cure. Some say they even have a cure for AIDS now, but they are not letting it out to everyone. Even cancer. Think about it, they do not want to put out cures. If they did, all the hospitals and Big pharma would go out of business. Even over there in the UK I am sure.

I mean I could be way off here, but with how everything is going and all the corruption out there, nothing would surprise me. Even when my own mom was dying of cancer, I mean they told her she had 4th stage cancer. In other words, she was dying. The doctor there however did not tell us she had fourth stage until AFTER they had her go through many many expensive tests. After all that money and all those tests the doctor says to us " well, we could not really find it, but it did not really make too much difference because it is terminal anyhow. I cannot tell you how upset we all were and disgusted. The doctor even argued with my mom saying she HAD to get Chemo started right away! My mom said No, The Doctor told my mom she had to, that it would prolong her life possibly by 6 to 9 months!!!! Yeah, 9 months of complete agony and not to mention the $$$$ they would charge. My mom walked out while the doctor was still talking. I mean they did not want to take no for an answer. IT was ALL about the money, I mean anyone could see that. I guess after that and after seeing all I have been through with doctors and stuff, it kind of opens your eyes to things. At least over here. I mean I will say that at least over there in the UK they have it right by having free health care. It should be free everywhere really. That will NEVER happen here. To much big Greedy Cooperates here.

so how is your mom now? and how long ago was that? did she die 6-9 months later? or within that month?

i would agree with the doctors that some intervention to affect the disease progress was needed at that time, but i wonder if dietary and other improvements might just as well be enough? instead of the drugs or radiation.
08-06-2013, 08:33 AM   #102
Ihurt
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WillBill: This was 10 years ago. My mom died. She was diagnosed with the secondary liver cancer in March of 2002, and she died August 13th of 2002. My mom was already chronically sick a big part of her life so there was no way my mom would ever have subjected herself to doing Chemo. We were very upset for the reason that they knew my mom had fourth stage cancer which was terminal but neglected to tell us right away. They told us AFTER they had her to go through all these tests saying they needed to find out where the cancer originated from. I mean it was rather disgusting because after all those tests( not to mention the false hope they were giving us) the doctors says to us that well, we were not able to find where the cancer started( their guess was her lungs), but either way it does not matter really since there is no hope, it is 4th stage and terminal! It was like being hit with a boulder. My dad was devastated and asked the doctor right out in the open WHY he did not tell us this before he had my mom going through all these painful uncomfortable tests???? The doctor sat there and said nothing.

As far as intervention, there was No intervention needed at all. All they had to do was tell the truth and leave the choices up to my mom. They did not. They lied! They held back info about my moms condition ( that it was terminal) until AFTER she did all those tests. Then they had a nerve to try and push Chemo on her telling her it would prolong her life by 6 months and maybe even 9 months. Any way you look at it, she was dying. Chemo may have prolonged her life ( which I doubt) but it definitely would have made her sicker than a dog as well. We even asked told the doctor this and do you know his answer was?? HE said, well so what, at least you would still be here!! I mean it was definitely all about making money off my poor dying mom. Disgusting. This was I gotta say my first eye opener about the western medical corporation and how horrible it can be. My mom went home and enrolled in Hospice where they come to your home when you need them. So my mom had like maybe 3 months where she was ok and then she went downhill pretty fast after that. Even the hospice doctor said had she did the chemo, that alone would likely have killed her. She made the right choice.
08-06-2013, 12:46 PM   #103
wildbill_52280
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WillBill: This was 10 years ago. My mom died. She was diagnosed with the secondary liver cancer in March of 2002, and she died August 13th of 2002. My mom was already chronically sick a big part of her life so there was no way my mom would ever have subjected herself to doing Chemo. We were very upset for the reason that they knew my mom had fourth stage cancer which was terminal but neglected to tell us right away. They told us AFTER they had her to go through all these tests saying they needed to find out where the cancer originated from. I mean it was rather disgusting because after all those tests( not to mention the false hope they were giving us) the doctors says to us that well, we were not able to find where the cancer started( their guess was her lungs), but either way it does not matter really since there is no hope, it is 4th stage and terminal! It was like being hit with a boulder. My dad was devastated and asked the doctor right out in the open WHY he did not tell us this before he had my mom going through all these painful uncomfortable tests???? The doctor sat there and said nothing.

As far as intervention, there was No intervention needed at all. All they had to do was tell the truth and leave the choices up to my mom. They did not. They lied! They held back info about my moms condition ( that it was terminal) until AFTER she did all those tests. Then they had a nerve to try and push Chemo on her telling her it would prolong her life by 6 months and maybe even 9 months. Any way you look at it, she was dying. Chemo may have prolonged her life ( which I doubt) but it definitely would have made her sicker than a dog as well. We even asked told the doctor this and do you know his answer was?? HE said, well so what, at least you would still be here!! I mean it was definitely all about making money off my poor dying mom. Disgusting. This was I gotta say my first eye opener about the western medical corporation and how horrible it can be. My mom went home and enrolled in Hospice where they come to your home when you need them. So my mom had like maybe 3 months where she was ok and then she went downhill pretty fast after that. Even the hospice doctor said had she did the chemo, that alone would likely have killed her. She made the right choice.
sorry to hear about your mom and her experiance.
if they were to have found the origination of the cancer from where it was metastasizing, they could have considered surgery, and that may have truly prolonged her life maybe even saved her. So the doctors decisions, while probably not perfect from the patients perspective, seemed fairly sound. however, depending on her condition, you are probably right about the chemo/radiation, it can take a toll and she may have been better off avoiding that. i have witnessed my uncle during lung cancer metastasizing to brain cancer, he seemed perfectly fine before chemo/radiation, then after treatments, quickly declined. supposedly the doctor gave him extra radiation treatment directly to his brain, as the doctor believed he was "so far gone" that he would up the dose to "help more". and that was it for him, now after zapping his brain with so much radiation, his entire body stopped working correctly, it appeared to me, that, the doctor had killed him, he was functional before the chemo and radiation, i believed had he simply quit smoking, reduced his stress, eat a super healthy diet, he would still be here today.

in another related story my mom was diagnosed with stage 4 cervical cancer and she decided to simply change her diet, that was 17 years ago, no chemo radiation doctors, nothing. she is still living a healthy life.


I'm not sure doctors ever really know whether someone is going to die from cancer with absolute certainty, even if they say so, but the probability is very high, they can at least be right about assessing probability. at the time of diagnosis, if they find something and the patient just continues on the same path of dietary habits sleep habits and stress levels, you can be sure they will die if some sort of change isnt made at diagnosis ,whether it be surgery radiation chemo, or even diet, sleep exercise, and stress reduction.

Last edited by wildbill_52280; 08-06-2013 at 02:11 PM.
08-06-2013, 01:31 PM   #104
Ihurt
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Willbill: Wow, I am sorry for what your Uncle went through and your mom! Thankfully your mom is still with you, that is great. I am so glad she was able to beat the cervical cancer without doing all the chemo and stuff.

That is why my mom declined the chemo as well. I mean my mom was by no means a robust healthy person before being diagnosed. She had health issues ( she had High blood pressure, Mienetriers disease which is a rare disease of the stomach, She also had bowel issues, they called it Mucus colitis which is what they call IBS now). There was no way my mom would have survived the effects of chemo. I am certain it would have made her gravely sick. They said she had multiple lesions all throughout her liver so in my opinion I think Chemo would have just killed her faster. At least she had a couple ok months with us on the hospice.

That is awesome that your mom was able to reverse the cervical cancer with diet and all. I mean you are 100% right, no doctor can really predict when a person is going to die. I mean my dads best friend was told he was suppose to be dead 25 years ago that he would never survive another 5 years at that time from his bad heart. It is crazy but the doctors that told him this are all dead now, but he is still alive! Go figure....
08-06-2013, 01:39 PM   #105
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Augmentin is Amoxicillin-clavulanic acid, thats what gave me crohns. when i took it i got over my bronchitis after a week or so and felt better, then by the second week i felt much worse, hair started falliing out, i felt insane. then had to quit my job after 4 months after. slowly ibd emerged until being diagnosed a year later. never felt the same since.

to me their is hardly any difference between c diff and IBD, its all chronic diarrhea that is somewhat life threatening.

its already an accepted fact that antibiotics cause temporary colitis and temporary diarrhea. so then its not that much of a stretch to say it also causes more permanent diarrhea, like c diff and IBD.
Well they acknowledge c diff comes after antibiotics, but that say the cause is c diff not antibiotics, conveniently protecting the pharma and medical establishment. they say c diff is the cause of c diff, and treat it with more antibiotics. and it actually may never be acknowledged that antibiotics can cause IBD, but now there is good scientific evidence.
I was also on Augmentin for Breast sepsis. This was one of the many antibiotics I was on for several weeks. two weeks after stopping these pills is when my tummy troubles started and 2 weeks later ended up in casualty. Incidently I would avoid eating whilst at work because the pills would cause me to have very loose stools.
08-12-2013, 12:19 PM   #106
wildbill_52280
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someone in this thread stated that when they told their doctor they were convined the antibiotics brought on their IBD, the doctor responded, "if antibiotics caused IBD, then how do you explain all the people that have taken it in the past, that DO NOT develop IBD?", his asserted conclusion of these observations being therefore this observation "proves beyond all doubt", that antibiotics cannot cause IBD!!!

then i would say in response, if antibiotics can never cause IBD, then all clouds NEVER cause Rain!!! obviously there some beautiful summer days we have that have plenty of clouds yet, NO RAIN!!! obviously this doctors horribly developed argument is based on a super simplistic idea of cause and effect relationships, and of the general nature of the universe. there are more variables to the nature of clouds that can produce rain, just as their are more variables involved for antibiotics to cause IBD.

So, the fact that there are people that have taken antibiotics and never develop IBD, does not mean antibiotics never cause IBD. look at all the clouds that never cause rain, we could then also say, therefore, clouds do not cause rain. no, that's not true. Clouds definitely are somehow involved in causing rain.

And i also believe that somehow antibiotics are definitely involved in causing some cases of IBD.

Last edited by wildbill_52280; 08-14-2013 at 12:52 AM.
08-13-2013, 12:26 PM   #107
Ihurt
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Very Good Point indeed! It stands that doctors really have No clue what causes crohns so therefore they cannot say with certainity what "does not" cause it....









someone in this thread stated that when they told their doctor they were convined the antibiotics brought on their IBD, the doctor responded, "if antibiotics caused IBD, then how do you explain all the people that have taken it in the past, that DO NOT develop IBD?", his asserted conclusion of these observations being therefore this observation "proves beyond all doubt", that antibiotics cannot cause IBD!!!

then i would say in response, if antibiotics can never cause IBD, then all clouds NEVER cause Rain!!! obviously there some beautiful summer days we have that have plenty of clouds yet, NO RAIN!!! obviously this doctors horribly developed argument is based on a super simplistic idea of cause and effect relationships, and of the general nature of the universe. there are more variables to the nature of clouds that can produce rain, just as their are more variables involved for antibiotics to cause IBD.

So, the fact that there are people that have taken antibiotics and never develop IBD, does not mean antibiotics never cause IBD. look at all the clouds that never cause rain, we could then also say, therefore, clouds do not cause rain. no, that's not true. Clouds definitely are somehow involved in causing rain.
09-04-2013, 11:15 AM   #108
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Sorry to bump this up but I'd just like to add that I'm another who has taken antibiotics and ended up with massive weight loss and malabsorption, a stomach ulcer , numerous food allergies and so on. I've still not been diagnosed but I was on antibiotics for several years as a child and what pushed me over the edge was a course of tetracycline for just a month.

My doctor is actually very open minded to the fact that antibiotics put me where I am , he mentioned he'd seen a few others in similar situations. What they have actually specifically done is the question.

I had comprehensive digestive stool analysis which shown that I had zero growth of the lactobacillus species ( friendly bacteria ) , not a deficiency but a complete lack of any. I also had an overgrowth of streptococcus. This all points to dysbiosis and/or SIBO but I've not been officially tested for SIBO with a breath test as of yet.

Whether or not SIBO could cause such severe malabsorption and health problems is another questions also.

In situations like ours there appears sadly to be much more questions than answers but at least we have forums such as this where we can share our advice and stories.
09-04-2013, 01:02 PM   #109
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When you had the comprehensive stool test done, was it done by a naturopathic doctor? I had one done about 2 and half years ago by a lab called metometrix. At the time I did not have any gut issues to much per say though, just other health issues. My test did not show dysbiosis at the time. Well about almost 2 years ago I started having bad intestinal pain and issues. I have been sick for 2 years now with having constant intestinal pains. Interestingly, I have had to be on low dose antibiotics for years now to control another condition I have( Interstitial Cystitis of the bladder) which causes me to get bad UTI's. I am pretty sure that the low dose antibiotics have caused ALL my gut issues. But I have no choice really at this point. I would rather take the low dose antibiotic than have to take frequent courses of high doses when I get a UTI.

Do you take probiotics? I take High doses of probiotics that includes acidophilus and many other beneficial bacteria. I kind of want to get my stool tested again to see where I am at but I know that western med doctors do not do this kind of testing( why I do not know), you think they would! I would go back to the naturopathic doc who did it the first time but my insurance will not cover...







Sorry to bump this up but I'd just like to add that I'm another who has taken antibiotics and ended up with massive weight loss and malabsorption, a stomach ulcer , numerous food allergies and so on. I've still not been diagnosed but I was on antibiotics for several years as a child and what pushed me over the edge was a course of tetracycline for just a month.

My doctor is actually very open minded to the fact that antibiotics put me where I am , he mentioned he'd seen a few others in similar situations. What they have actually specifically done is the question.

I had comprehensive digestive stool analysis which shown that I had zero growth of the lactobacillus species ( friendly bacteria ) , not a deficiency but a complete lack of any. I also had an overgrowth of streptococcus. This all points to dysbiosis and/or SIBO but I've not been officially tested for SIBO with a breath test as of yet.

Whether or not SIBO could cause such severe malabsorption and health problems is another questions also.

In situations like ours there appears sadly to be much more questions than answers but at least we have forums such as this where we can share our advice and stories.
09-04-2013, 01:26 PM   #110
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When you had the comprehensive stool test done, was it done by a naturopathic doctor? I had one done about 2 and half years ago by a lab called metometrix. At the time I did not have any gut issues to much per say though, just other health issues. My test did not show dysbiosis at the time. Well about almost 2 years ago I started having bad intestinal pain and issues. I have been sick for 2 years now with having constant intestinal pains. Interestingly, I have had to be on low dose antibiotics for years now to control another condition I have( Interstitial Cystitis of the bladder) which causes me to get bad UTI's. I am pretty sure that the low dose antibiotics have caused ALL my gut issues. But I have no choice really at this point. I would rather take the low dose antibiotic than have to take frequent courses of high doses when I get a UTI.

Do you take probiotics? I take High doses of probiotics that includes acidophilus and many other beneficial bacteria. I kind of want to get my stool tested again to see where I am at but I know that western med doctors do not do this kind of testing( why I do not know), you think they would! I would go back to the naturopathic doc who did it the first time but my insurance will not cover...

I had my stool sample performed by Genova diagnostics and the results interpreted by a Dr.Myhill. She's definitely very knowledgeable but in comparison to your everyday doctor quite out there and many specialists and doctors I've shown her recommendations think it's a bit much.

Off of my results she basically recommended I start a zero carb diet and take high dose vitamin C along with kefir and take transdermal supplements through the skin.

I don't agree with zero carb diets and find I definitely feel better eating safe carbohydrates such as sweet potato , some gluten free grains and so on.

Dr.Myhill has a whole page here on gut fermentation caused by bacteria and the symptoms it can bring on you may find interesting. If you were interested you can actually order stool samples and for their results to be interpreted from her site and they send the stuff out to you.

http://www.drmyhill.co.uk/wiki/Ferme...he_gut_and_CFS

Here is her page on Crohns Disease and Ulcerative Colitis.

http://www.drmyhill.co.uk/wiki/Crohn...ental_approach

The whole idea of gut fermentation and dysbiosis commonly ties into the much more recognized Small intestinal bacterial overgrowth.

Probiotics in my particular case tend to actually make me feel much worse but this can be a common occurrence with SIBO and dysbiosis.

If I was in your particular situation I'd maybe try my best to come off of the antibiotics but if you find they're as helpful as they seem to be for your Cystitis it may not be wise, maybe discussing with your doctor and researching some alternate treatment and trying it out would be a possibility. I was on antibiotics for 2 years straight for a prostate problem as a child ( which was an absolute nightmare to get diagnosed ) but managed to come off of them by changing my diet and lifestyle since I no longer liked the idea of being dependent on them. I'm just glad I came off them when I did.

I took the single course of tetracycline for acne that ironically developed after the 2 year course of other antibiotics and even more ironically 80% of the acne cleared when I changed my diet after all of the antibiotics.

The same sadly can't be said for my digestion and absorption though, something has altered there that just doesn't want to go back.

Many people blame candida after antibiotics if they develop health problems and whilst this is possible I think it's blown massively out of proportion and it's usually an overabundance or imbalance of bacteria that is causing problems.
09-04-2013, 01:59 PM   #111
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I'm pretty convinced antibiotics are how I got it. I had a scrip for Augmentin for an infection unrelated to anything in my gut in January. Two days later, I was in the bathroom non-stop. I took the meds for another day, then had to stop because the pain was unbearable. Had a CT scan (Feb), then a colonoscopy (Apr), then a small bowel study two weeks later. I got the dx toward the end of April with a giant bottle of Apriso.


...and here I am.
09-04-2013, 02:06 PM   #112
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For everyone here struggling with diarrhea and or bloating after antibiotics or any of the symptoms listed under this link please be tested for SIBO. I'm sure there are many discussions regarding this on this forum but it's one of the digestive problem which can be caused by antibiotics and if you're displaying the typical symptoms it's worth a look.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_i...ial_overgrowth

My digestive problems have arose after antibiotics although I don't display any of the typical symptoms of SIBO so my situation may be more complicated. I've still yet to be tested though.
09-04-2013, 08:06 PM   #113
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Taya92,

Thanks for that info, I really appreciate. I am going to look into getting my stool checked again for the flora counts. I really would be interested to see if all the heavy duty probiotics are actually working.

I would love to come off these antibiotics, but I am scared. I don't want to get another UTI where I will have to be on high dose antibiotics, that would kill me I am sure. I have tried many alternative things to stop the UTI's( I did this before I ever gave in and started taking these low dose antibiotics). Nothing would work. I just got worse and worse with my bladder, it was a nightmare. Believe me, I am so Anti-drug that for me to cave in an take the antibiotics, I was desperate. I was suicidal at the time the pain from the constant UTI was so bad. I am on a diet that is basically very very low carb. I eat sweet potatoes though like you do. I also have been Gluten Free for over 6 years now too. My diet it pretty healthy-bland. I also try and eat as organic as possible too.

I hope they can figure out what is causing the absorption issues you are having.

Thanks again for the links...
09-06-2013, 08:54 AM   #114
ce1210
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I definitely think my crohn's is antibiotic related...growing up I had a lot of sinus and ear infections as I had terrible allergies and live in an area with awful air quality. I was often on antibiotics for sinus infections. Well a little over a year ago, after going 3 years w/o health insurance in the good ol US of A, I saw an ENT because I had a sinus infection that wasn't going away with amoxicillin. So he prescribed me a series of 6 different antibiotics over a 5 month period to get the infection out so he could do surgery to remove tonsils and fix nose/sinuses. After the surgery, I wason more antibiotics for 2 weeks to prevent post surgical infection. After this when I started eating again, I was having terrible acid reflux, I have always had it to some degree, but it was terrible. I was taking 3 Prilosec a day and eating tums left and right with no relief. Also started having really bad back neck and hip pains through last summer after the surgery. Reflux worsened until last winter I had a few episodes of throwing up blood. Then this spring, chronic mucous filled D joined in with the reflux and back pain. After 2 months of that and losing 35 pounds I finally saw a GI who prescribed me to more Prilosec. When I asked him if antibiotics could have caused my problems he brushed off the question. He also says probiotics are a waste of money and I have experimented on myself with them and I know they work. Doctors seem to be extremely defensive of antibiotics which I guess makes sense as they get paid to prescribe them and they are often hailed as a drug that "changed humanity".....
09-06-2013, 01:03 PM   #115
Ihurt
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Yep, most doctors do not push probitoics. Though I have seen 2 Gastro doctors who have( including the one I see now). Even my primary care doctor recommends them to her patients. Sadly, doctors do not like to recommend probiotics because they are not FDA approved( which means nothing really!). I do not trust the FDA at all, hell, they approve things that actually caused death to people during trials!! Enough said there.

How long after you had taken the antibiotics did you come down with crohns symptoms?












I definitely think my crohn's is antibiotic related...growing up I had a lot of sinus and ear infections as I had terrible allergies and live in an area with awful air quality. I was often on antibiotics for sinus infections. Well a little over a year ago, after going 3 years w/o health insurance in the good ol US of A, I saw an ENT because I had a sinus infection that wasn't going away with amoxicillin. So he prescribed me a series of 6 different antibiotics over a 5 month period to get the infection out so he could do surgery to remove tonsils and fix nose/sinuses. After the surgery, I wason more antibiotics for 2 weeks to prevent post surgical infection. After this when I started eating again, I was having terrible acid reflux, I have always had it to some degree, but it was terrible. I was taking 3 Prilosec a day and eating tums left and right with no relief. Also started having really bad back neck and hip pains through last summer after the surgery. Reflux worsened until last winter I had a few episodes of throwing up blood. Then this spring, chronic mucous filled D joined in with the reflux and back pain. After 2 months of that and losing 35 pounds I finally saw a GI who prescribed me to more Prilosec. When I asked him if antibiotics could have caused my problems he brushed off the question. He also says probiotics are a waste of money and I have experimented on myself with them and I know they work. Doctors seem to be extremely defensive of antibiotics which I guess makes sense as they get paid to prescribe them and they are often hailed as a drug that "changed humanity".....
09-06-2013, 05:28 PM   #116
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I had many antibiotics pumped into me as a baby. I developed asthma shortly after and around age 13 is when it ceased. Before taking accutane I did take an antibiotic for acne. The truth revealed?
09-08-2013, 04:02 PM   #117
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It's ironic I posted in this thread a few days ago. I mentioned antibiotics somehow caused my ill health and since then ( around two years ago ) I've been trying to pin point what is actually going on in my body , I'm unable to gain any weight , have several food allergies , a stomach ulcer and gastritis , severe mal-absorption issues which has caused several deficiencies and so on.

The irony is that the last few days I've had toothache steadily getting much worse and based on how I feel now I'm guessing my tooth is infected. I've got a dentist appointment on Tuesday ( which I'm going to try and get moved to tomorrow ) and I'm guessing it's likely they will want to give me antibiotics. I am terrified of antibiotics after what they seemed to do to me although I knew the day would inevitably come when I would need them again.

I may ask about alternatives if it to it , I'm thinking high dose allicin , extracted from garlic.
09-08-2013, 05:06 PM   #118
Ihurt
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Whatever you do, I would Not take clindamycin. This one is one of the worst antibiotics you can take. Dentists like to give this one for some reason. It is very hard on the digestive tract and has a high risk of causing C-diff... Good Lcuk. Oh, you can ask for a special mouthwash that has antibacterial properties. That may be a suitable alternative..
09-08-2013, 08:57 PM   #119
wildbill_52280
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It's ironic I posted in this thread a few days ago. I mentioned antibiotics somehow caused my ill health and since then ( around two years ago ) I've been trying to pin point what is actually going on in my body , I'm unable to gain any weight , have several food allergies , a stomach ulcer and gastritis , severe mal-absorption issues which has caused several deficiencies and so on.

The irony is that the last few days I've had toothache steadily getting much worse and based on how I feel now I'm guessing my tooth is infected. I've got a dentist appointment on Tuesday ( which I'm going to try and get moved to tomorrow ) and I'm guessing it's likely they will want to give me antibiotics. I am terrified of antibiotics after what they seemed to do to me although I knew the day would inevitably come when I would need them again.

I may ask about alternatives if it to it , I'm thinking high dose allicin , extracted from garlic.

just eat lots of fruits veggies and whole grains for fiber, good bacteria will feed on them, and antibiotics wont effect the good ones then.
09-09-2013, 07:31 AM   #120
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Thanks for the advice guys. As expected I went to the dentist this morning and he said my tooth isn't infected but my gum is since a wisdom tooth is popping through !. I'm 21 and I actually thought they'd already all come through. With not much room for the wisdom tooth to come through my gum is taking the damage.

I told him my concerns about the antibiotics given my past history with them and he asked which antibiotic it was. When I told him I was on several but tetracycline seemed to be the worst of the bunch he wrote me out a prescription for amoxicillin.

Afterwards I went to a local pharmacy who prefer natural products and asked them about the allicin , he mentioned because not much blood supply gets to the teeth he's not sure if it would be effective enough but to take 10 ( yes ten ! ) allicin capsules per day for 3 days whilst also swilling my mouth with salt water twice a day and see how I go. If the pain is still there and bothering me then I'll likely have to take the antibiotics.

I hope the allicin and salt water will work !. I'm happy to say I had a really pleasant and understanding dentist at least , wish me luck lol !.
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