07-21-2014, 01:56 PM   #211
wildbill_52280
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Fecal transplants let packrats eat poisonous plants

http://www.sciencecodex.com/fecal_tr..._poison-137873
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Learn How Fecal transplants restore good bacteria that regulate inflammation to induce remission and how it has potential to be a cure for IBD in the future. Follow the link below.
http://www.crohnsforum.com/showthread.php?t=52400
07-22-2014, 07:06 PM   #212
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old article but a good one:

Why we need to learn to love the microbe
The Globe and Mail
Published Friday, Dec. 06 2013, 6:04 PM EST

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/...ticle15812471/
07-22-2014, 10:59 PM   #213
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“Messieurs, c'est les microbes qui auront le dernier mot." (Gentlemen, it is the microbes who will have the last word.)”

― Louis Pasteur - "father of microbiology"
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08-02-2014, 09:45 AM   #214
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Is there any evidence to suggest that the presence of mesalamine would inhibit, enhance, or have no effect on the establishment of a newly introduced microbiome?
08-02-2014, 11:57 AM   #215
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Is there any evidence to suggest that the presence of mesalamine would inhibit, enhance, or have no effect on the establishment of a newly introduced microbiome?
The more suppressed the inflammation is or rather the more controlled ones disease is,the more likely the transplant will take hold and new bacteria will restablish themselves. one reason for this is that one way pathogens are able to dominate in the intestines is because of the by products of inflammation nitrate and nitrite which feed mainly bad bacteria.


Host-derived nitrate boosts growth of E. coli in the inflamed gut. Feb 2013
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23393266

There are other mechanisms which allow pathogens to thrive, such as the overall concept of colonization resistance provided by an intact intestinal microbiome. This is a bit seperate from just byproducts of chronic inflammation. There is also the possibility that missing bacteria do not utilize sugars that some bacteria create, this would now provide a new niche for other species to feed on.


As for the substance mesalamine, I'm not aware of it having and negative effect on bacteria itself, but if it is helping to suppress inflammatory response then we can assume/theorize it may only help a fecal transplant rather then hurt.
08-04-2014, 02:34 PM   #216
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Fecal-transplant startup Rebiotix closes on $25M for trials
Aug 4, 2014, 11:07am CDT

http://www.bizjournals.com/twincitie...al-trials.html
08-04-2014, 07:44 PM   #217
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Well iv just had my second day of FMT, yesterday was the scope infusion, found mild inflammation in a few parts of the large intestine, had the enema infusion today, was a mild bit of a mental challenge but actually quite easy now that it's done, 3 more days of it. (Five in total) I'm going to try stick to a strict real food diet to maximise my chances of success. Fingers crossed this works for me. Will keep you all posted and update about the full procedure.
08-05-2014, 09:18 AM   #218
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Josh, are you in the US then? I sincerely hope it goes well
08-05-2014, 02:41 PM   #219
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I'm in aus, doing it at prof. Borody's clinic, thank you for your well wishes!
08-05-2014, 02:54 PM   #220
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I'm in aus, doing it at prof. Borody's clinic, thank you for your well wishes!
Feel free to share all the details!! such as:

did they supply a donor or did you bring your own?

you mentioned the first treatment was infusion of donor stool through a gastroscope/colonoscopy? is that correct?

are you doing 4 more days of enemas?
08-05-2014, 03:18 PM   #221
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Using their donors, they screen them meticulously, been on rifaximin and flagyl for a while, ceased just before the scope/1st infusion, have 3 more days of infusions via enema, havnt had a bm since the morning of b4 the infusion though because they give you immodium so the new bacteria stays in there for a while and takes ahold in its new host.. Stomachs pretty sore but that's probably because Iv been so constipated, will keep you updated w symptom improvements etc hoping it works.
08-05-2014, 04:35 PM   #222
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Wow! I so hope you find success!!! Anxious to hear more!
08-05-2014, 05:39 PM   #223
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Well apparently cure/ prolonged remission rate is 1 in 30 for crohns, so I have my fingers crossed and have said my prayers haha.. Time will tell
08-05-2014, 05:58 PM   #224
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I'm going to try stick to a strict real food diet to maximise my chances of success. Fingers crossed this works for me.
Hope that's a paleo-based real food diet, rather than a whole-grain based real food diet
08-06-2014, 06:05 AM   #225
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Joshuaaa, I hope this is your miracle treatment. Please keep us posted on your progress. Wishing you much luck and ongoing remission. Dr Borody is a brilliant man.
08-06-2014, 10:24 AM   #226
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Joshuaaa,

Got my fingers crossed for you and prayers asked.

Good luck and keep us posted!

Best,
Miles
08-06-2014, 03:39 PM   #227
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Well apparently cure/ prolonged remission rate is 1 in 30 for crohns, so I have my fingers crossed and have said my prayers haha.. Time will tell
I see that you had some pretty powerful antibiotics before the FMT, presumably to knock out large numbers of your existing microbiome. Do you know if antibiotics are used in the protocol for UC (as opposed to CD) in Dr. Borody's clinic?

Those are pretty long odds, but I hope you are the one! Talking of odds, do you know what the success rate is for prolonged remission in UC at that clinic?

Five infusions? That doesn't seem like many. Does the patient choose the number based on how much they want to spend?
08-06-2014, 05:28 PM   #228
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I see that you had some pretty powerful antibiotics before the FMT, presumably to knock out large numbers of your existing microbiome. Do you know if antibiotics are used in the protocol for UC (as opposed to CD) in Dr. Borody's clinic?

Those are pretty long odds, but I hope you are the one! Talking of odds, do you know what the success rate is for prolonged remission in UC at that clinic?

Five infusions? That doesn't seem like many. Does the patient choose the number based on how much they want to spend?
Sorry I meant to press quote but I'm on my phone, first, just want to say thanks to all of you for your well wishes. Ok, so it is quite costly for 5 days but even 1 in 30 is worth it for me, my crohns isn't that bad so it might raise my chances a bit. The antibiotics are the same for UC prep, and the success rate is quite a bit higher for UC. The reason I actually decided to do FMT is because when I saw Prof B the first time I was in complete remission, which was weird because one month prior I was in another hospital w a flare up... Could very well have been remicade that hid the disease as I still didn't feel right.. Could also have been the large amount of cannabis extract I ate (not recommending it as it gave me a panic attack and I can't smoke it anymore coz of the said anxiety it causes.. Anyway long story short, my diagnosis was elusive they've thought some sort of IBD chronic colitis but weren't sure what it was because the patterns have changed w various scopes so he thought I'd be a good candidate for FMT. However on the last scope the skip lesions looked like crohns and a diagnosis is made on what you see so the histology doesn't really come into it here. Moving forward he said had we known this before the FMT we woulda gone straight onto anti-map treatment, but the way I see it is I'm doing the process of elimination, if my disease is caused by a disbiosis then this thing will fix me up, if it's caused by some unknown pathogen this thing will also likely fix me up, if it's not then the chances that it's caused by map go up even higher which means anti-map is the way to go.

Sorry for the essay, just needed to put out where I am.
08-06-2014, 08:17 PM   #229
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Sorry I meant to press quote but I'm on my phone, first, just want to say thanks to all of you for your well wishes. Ok, so it is quite costly for 5 days but even 1 in 30 is worth it for me, my crohns isn't that bad so it might raise my chances a bit. The antibiotics are the same for UC prep, and the success rate is quite a bit higher for UC. The reason I actually decided to do FMT is because when I saw Prof B the first time I was in complete remission, which was weird because one month prior I was in another hospital w a flare up... Could very well have been remicade that hid the disease as I still didn't feel right.. Could also have been the large amount of cannabis extract I ate (not recommending it as it gave me a panic attack and I can't smoke it anymore coz of the said anxiety it causes.. Anyway long story short, my diagnosis was elusive they've thought some sort of IBD chronic colitis but weren't sure what it was because the patterns have changed w various scopes so he thought I'd be a good candidate for FMT. However on the last scope the skip lesions looked like crohns and a diagnosis is made on what you see so the histology doesn't really come into it here. Moving forward he said had we known this before the FMT we woulda gone straight onto anti-map treatment, but the way I see it is I'm doing the process of elimination, if my disease is caused by a disbiosis then this thing will fix me up, if it's caused by some unknown pathogen this thing will also likely fix me up, if it's not then the chances that it's caused by map go up even higher which means anti-map is the way to go.

Sorry for the essay, just needed to put out where I am.
joshuaa, thanks for the update and i hope all goes well. If you have the chance, ask someone at the clinic or Borody himself why they are not using FMT pills or nasogastric tube yet for crohn's? It would very interesting to hear what they are thinking.
08-06-2014, 09:27 PM   #230
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Pills will be used soon I think as a maintenance procedure in people who respond to FMT, as for NG tube as far as I know, risk of complications is higher with NG tube and colonoscope delivery is supposed to be the best method. I'll keep you guys updated as I go, apparently it can take a while to get the full benefits of FMT, the bacteria has to adapt to you and take place etc.. I'm hopeful, like I said by process of elimination I feel like I'll get this thing conquered one way or the other, it's important to realise the unknowns in IBD are vast, a diagnosis of cd is made from the appearance of skip lesions of inflammation, what causes that inflammation in person a) is entirely possible to be different to what causes it in person b) but that being said with all the research that's been done IMO there are 3 potential culprits, 1) map, 2) AEIC 3) unknown pathogen caused by a disbiosis, so ATM I'm tackling no.3 with hopes I'll be successful, if not I've narrowed down the list of suspects even further.
08-07-2014, 11:08 AM   #231
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Sorry for the essay, just needed to put out where I am.
The longer the better; although it is n=1, a first hand account is worth loads to me (and I presume other like me).
08-11-2014, 12:02 PM   #232
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I added another reference to first post of this thread, to support the claim of the women who has had no sign of crohn's disease for 12 years after receiving a fecal transplant through a nasogastric/jujenal tube, Professor borody believes she may be cured.

here are the links i added-

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...025/figure/F2/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...report=classic

Last edited by wildbill_52280; 08-11-2014 at 12:57 PM.
08-11-2014, 05:21 PM   #233
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An update, unfortunately I had to start pred again yesterday, it seems I wasn't the lucky 1 in 30, but hey I woulda kicked myself wondering "what if" if I hadn't of tried it. However I gotta say on the days of receiving the FMT enemas I felt remarkably better, unfortunately it's way too much of a mission to do every single day. One would think capsules could be some sort of solution to this the only problem being amount, you'd need a shit load of capsules (no pun intended ;p), and they'd have to be freshly supplied making it quite an effort. Do I still think there's hope for FMT in cd? If if works in even
1 in 30 yeah it's worth a shot, but it doesn't seem to be a hard and fast cure for the majority of cd patients, unless you can continue w it for maybe a month straight every other day I think it'd be enough to put you in remission, but like I said it's quite an ordeal to go through...
08-12-2014, 03:43 AM   #234
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So, Joshua, how many transplants did you have in the end? Obviously if you're straight back on pred then things must have been bad. So no real effect then? Have you had any resections of intestine? Just wondering. I think you saved me a long trip and a load of money too. I'm very sad that it didn't work for you. Well done for going through the procedure though.
08-12-2014, 03:51 AM   #235
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I had five all up, one during the scope, four retention enemas (not fun for any man to endure). Iv never had any resections, disease has always been in the sigmoid area now it's in the descending colon also, no disease in the small intestine. Iv been prescribed anti-map but I'm going to try go back on remicade before I commit to two years minimum of anti biotics, sad thing is I was in 100% histological remission during my scope in feb (probably from the remicade) that they thought it was probably some sort of chronic colitis rather than CD, hence going on the FMT.. Thing is I never felt like I was in remission even while the scope suggested otherwise, hence the trip to the CDD in the first place. It's been a long expensive endeavour and I kinda feel like I'm back in square one, though at least iv replaced some good bacteria and I guess I'd always wonder what if, if I hadn't of given it a shot.

What's your current state spooky? Med/disease history etc
08-12-2014, 05:42 AM   #236
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Thanks for the info Joshua. It must be disappointing to have it fail, not to mention that in February you were fine. I understand what you're saying about not feeling well despite no indication. I'm wondering if you have arthritis at all. This shows up in the blood and can make you feel very poorly. But its not from bowel disease. In a way it's good the remicade might have been what helped. Two years of anti biotics is amazing! I'm not sure many go on that dose. Anti biotics send me to the loo far more.

I've had crohns for 40 years. Never really goes into remission unfortunately. I've given up on surgeries because the disease comes back within weeks at the point of the joined intestine. I also have it in the mouth and through stomach and duodenum. I also have gastric dumping syndrome. I have a liquid feed 20 hours a day through a PEG. It's liquid in and liquid out too. Possibly due to amount of intestine removed. I too feel very poorly most of the time. Loo visits are ongoing day and night. I just wish there was a cure.
Cos I couldn't afford the FMT I've decided to try high dose probiotics. I'm on immuprobio, its 50billion good bacteria per capsule. Rather expensive too. Not had much effect yet. I spoke to my dietician about it and she said her last hospital did a trials of VSL# which has 450billion good bacteria. It was only on IBS people not IBD patients. they did a double blind trial and found it did nothing. But i'm going to try for 3 months just to get some good gut flora in my intestine. I also have colesevelam as an anti diarrhoea med. Doesn't help much and gripes a bit too. I also buy cheap immodium from the supermarket. These together do gripe a lot and do sometimes help reduce loo visits. If the gastric dumping is bad then absolutely everything dashes through, including loads of bile which rips the skin off my butt, burns the skin right off and continues to burn. loads of barrier cream helps (cavilon).
I hope you find remission with something, pred, remicade.
08-12-2014, 06:16 AM   #237
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Ah boy, it sounds like you've been through the absolute ringer, have you done much research into MAP as a cause of CD, or AIEC? The reason I ask is because for those who have tried absolutely everything under the sun those are the two things I would recommend looking at, Qu biologics is currently doing a trial for their SSI vaccine which has the genius mechanism of addressing macrophage deficiency, (which more and more evidence is looking like that May be the underlying cause to crohns), anyway it's still early days with that but I can honestly say iv never seen any results as good as their compassionate use program (granted it only had 10 ppl in it), hence the need for them to do the trial now. As for anti-map now that is the cocktail of antibiotics aimed at killing or suppressing the mycobacterium believed to cause Crohn's disease, (it's actually been proven to be the cause of a subset of crohns, I don't have the numbers, some say 50% recent papers have suggested 80%) there are threads for both treatments. I'm sorry you've had to suffer with disease for so long, that truly does suck. Are you on any psychological meds to help you cope?
08-12-2014, 06:17 AM   #238
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But I have to mention, given that you have it in so many places it certainly sounds infection based... I'm on my phone so I can't link you to the MAP thread but please search for it..
08-12-2014, 09:57 AM   #239
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Joshuaaa, I'm sorry to hear that FMT wasn't a cure for you! Have you tried LDN? It seems to benefit people with UC and crohns. Also you mentioned Cannibis oil, have you used a strain with all CBD and very low THC? It causes no high and may not cause anxiety.
The other thing that comes to mind is getting a blood test, Prometheus, to get a more conclusive UC/ crohns diagnosis. My daughter had the same skip pattern and the GIs were talking crohns but the blood test markers were all UC. It's expensive but they have a sliding scale payment.
08-12-2014, 11:40 AM   #240
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joshuaaa, do you know any more details about the protocol they followed? you already mentioned there was antibiotics before the FMT, and the first infusion was through the colonoscope/endoscope followed by 4 days of enemas. Were the enemas from fresh stool or frozen stool? I remember that borody didnt make any attempts to mix the fmt solution in an anaerobic environment, did he since change his methods?The issue is this-

Current Microbiology
July 1989, Volume 19, Issue 1, pp 39-43
Oxygen tolerance of anaerobic bacteria isolated from human feces
Tullio Brusa, Enrica Canzi, Novella Pacini, Raffaella Zanchi, Professor Annamaria Ferrari

Abstract
The large bowel intestinal flora of mammals is made up mostly of O2-intolerant anaerobic microorganisms which are irreversibly damaged by brief exposure to air. The aim of our work was to investigate the effect of atmospheric O2 on human intestinal anaerobic microorganisms. Thirty O2-intolerant bacterial strains that reached 100% mortality after 120 min of air exposure were isolated. Ten of these strains were tested for their atmospheric O2 sensitivity as a function of air exposure time; all tested microorganisms showed a similar mortality trend on exposure to air. In fact, 50% of cells survive, on the average, after 4–5 min of atmospheric O2; this percentage decreases to 3–5% after only 20 min, and after 40 min only one cell in a thousand survives; all strains reached 100% mortality in a time range of 100–120 min. The strains examined were identified as belonging to the genera Eubacterium, Peptostreptococcus, and Coprococcus.
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF01568901


So basically after 20 minutes after being exposed to oxygen 95-97% of the bacteria are all dead. if it's administered within 4-5 minutes you would probably be ok but still 50% are already dead. Coordinating all this with a donor, patient and doctor must be real tough, its easy to assume that many times, they cannot plan this out perfectly. these are just some of the issues with the protocols that need to be addressed. maybe they solved these problems i don't know hopefully you have more info to share with us, that would be great.you have already done alot by sharing your experiance though and I appreciate it!!
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