Crohn's Disease Forum » Treatment » Pain medication and addiction in Crohn's Disease


 
04-14-2007, 06:52 AM   #31
Matthew
 
Hi all

During a recent ER visit they gave me morphine for the first time in my life, about 30 seconds or so after the injection and flush of warmth my pain - lower gut cramps - went from maybe a 5-6 to completely off the scale. I pretty much fell off the gurney and into the floor in a knot. Scared me, my wife and the nurse silly, but in another 30 seconds or so, it seemed like 5 minutes, when the worst of the waves passed I got her to lead me to the bathroom cause I felt nauseous, within a few more minutes the pain and nausea were all gone and I mean all gone. I stayed on morphine for the next 24 hours or so, several more injections with no more bad reactions just what I would call a warm quiet relaxed meltout which is what I understand to be normal. I know some people are allergic to morphine but other than the initial incident I seemed all right with it. Anyone else had a similar result? Should I expect it again? Doctors and nurses were not too forth coming on the issue if they knew anything.

Matthew
04-14-2007, 07:49 AM   #32
Matthew
 
Hi all
Att: GNC Crohn's Man

You are dead on so much of this stuff that I have fought out so far, thanks for your info on the stuff I haven't.

I have found Darvocet to be very effective as well , especially for the persistent dull lower back pain that I get from time to time with flareups. Yea it is not as effective for the sharp pains in my lower gut, but it does tend to take the edge off about as good or a little better than pot, and since pot is illegal where I live and job is one of high accountability, well you get the picture...

I have had some trouble with constipation with Darvocet as it does tend to slow things down for me. Anymore I take a Metamucill caplet or two per Darvocet, this seems to help as long as I take them with plenty of fluid. I NEVER take Metamucill caplets without at least 12oz water per caplet as I am convinced they have caused a blockage for me without enough water.

Dang there is so much variation in how these illnesses manifest themselves in combinations, in each individual case no wonder there is so much disparate and conflicting information out there.

From what I know about my condition they have not found any restrictions, strictures or fissues so far (via scope and enhanced CT), thank goodness. I do have diviticular lesions in various places the acsending and transverse as well as the descending colon, some very near the illeum. The worst flareups for me have started with infection of these close diverticuli and end up with my illeum shuting down, small intestines thus blocked and the entire colon lining inflamed and hyper-inflated. So I have to be very careful about food contamination, constipation or GI tract slowdowns in general.

Again thanks for all your contributions folks.

Matthew
04-14-2007, 08:48 PM   #33
Evagation
 
I've tried to read all of the posts, and you all make many good points, so I'm just going to share my story.

After the arthritis diagnosis at 12, my docs gave me tylenol-3. Years later, when I wanted off the codeine (and the acetaminophen), I moved onto tramadol (Ultram). Once the pain started getting much worse, it was on to Vicodin. Then it was onto Percocet AND Vicodin. My tolerance had gotten insanely high. Then the Percocet was switched out for Darvon, and I still had the Vicodin.

I got addicted. It took me the past few years but there is no question that I was extremely addicted to opioids (opiates are drugs that are actually derived from the opium plant, opioids are synthetic opiates).

Also--has anyone mentioned that opiate use can lead to major migraines? It's true. I developed intense migraines while I was on Vicodin, and I simply treated them with more Vicodin, and then Percocet. I had to take a frightening amount of drugs just to get the migraines to go away. It's probably one of the reasons I got so addicted--I had to take enough opioids to not just get rid of the pain from arthritis, but to get me so high that I could barely feel the migraines.

I figured out I was addicted when I started a pain journal, and included in it how many times a day I took pain killers. Within a few weeks, it was obvious that I was just popping opioids because I liked popping opioids, not because I was in that much pain. If I hadn't gone to my docs with the pain journal, they probably would have kept giving me pain killers and not thinking twice about it. No one who's ever met me, especially my docs because I'm super-responsible about my CD, would ever think that I had gotten addicted to drugs. Even my own husband didn't realize how bad it had gotten until I had him read the pain journal. My family, my boss, my co-workers, my friends, NOBODY knew how many drugs I was taken on a daily basis.

So, yes, it is possible to get addicted to the pain killers. They are habit forming, especially opioids (including codeine). I've been reading up a lot about addiction, and they're learning so much about our brains on drugs. We all have opiate receptors in our brain, and our body does actually produce a small amount of opiates on a daily basis. Except the drugs, even codeine, flood our brains (opiate receptors) with far more opioids than it could ever naturally produce.

Which is why, at first, they work so well. Docs are learning that we build a tolerance to opiates because, after prolonged use of them, we actually trick our brains into thinking that we the need all of those extra opioids just to survive. So, instead of working as a pain killer, they simply keep the addict from going through a painful detox. It's why opiate addicts have one of the highest relapse rates of all drug addicts. We're not just physically addicted to the drug--we have our brains convinced that we NEED the drugs. So, for me, instead of taking them only when I was in pain, I took them all of the time because my body had gotten so used to them. If I tried to be good, and not take any for a few days, just to prove I could, the withdrawal symptoms would be so bad that I'd go back on the Vicodin just to make the withdrawals go away. For me, it became a vicious cycle.

(If anyone is curious about the new methods of addiction treatment, check out the HBO site for it's documentary, "ADDICTION" It's incredibly informative. They've done brain scan studies of addicts that show that an addicts brain reacts to drug cues (triggers) so quickly that the addict doesn't consciously realize it's happening. All they know is that their brain is suddenly telling them that the drugs are the most important thing in their lives--more important than a spouse, children, families, and a job--and that they need to get the drug NOW. It's all really interesting. Well, to me, at least.)

Now, just to be clear. I am simply sharing my story. I come from a family with a history of addiction (my maternal grandparents were alcoholics, my Mom was addicted to prescription meds and my Dad is addicted to gambling). That history definitely had a lot to do with pushing me further into my own addiction. I'm not trying to advocate that anyone should just abstain from pain killers because you might get addicted. I just think that it's a good idea to know your family history regarding addiction, to make sure your docs know about it, and to keep a pain journal.

I still keep my pain journal, even though now all it says (for the past month) is "I hate withdrawals! Withdrawals suck!" But I still write in it because I know that, someday, I'm going to need to go back on pain killers. Unlike the average addict, I actually have a chronic illness that will, eventually, necessitate some amount of pain relief. We just won't ever take me back to the opioids.

People get addicted to all sorts of things. Oprah talks all the time about her addiction to food, but that doesn't mean she stopped eating entirely because of it. I have friends who are definitely addicted to shopping. It's how we handle the addiction that matters. Which was why I needed my pain journal to finally make me admit that I was an addict. I could hide my drug use from my husband, but I couldn't hide it from myself.

Yikes. This is long. I apologize for that. When I saw this thread I couldn't help but think, WOW. I'm only a month clean from my opioid addiction, so this thread called out to me because the more I talk about my addiction, and how I'm dealing with it, the better I feel. The withdrawals are still awful but talking about it helps remind me why I'm going through it all in the first place.

Thanks for letting me share.

Katie.

(Edited to Add: Oh yeah. I still smoke pot. I'm in California, and I have a prescription, so my docs are all just fine with it. I'm going to Narcotics Anonymous meetings, and I have a therapist that I see on a regular basis. They all agree that as long as I don't get psychologically addicted to pot--which probably won't happen since I don't smoke on a regular basis, only as a last resort when I'm either in a whole lot of pain, or haven't eaten anything for a few days--then it's not a problem. Luckily, every single study has shown that there is no way a person can become physically addicted to pot. Just mentally dependent upon it. Which is why I have my pain journal, and my therapist. Dealing with the opioid addiction is bad enough, so I'm doing everything I can to not develop another addiction.)

Last edited by Evagation; 04-14-2007 at 09:06 PM.
05-07-2007, 07:59 AM   #34
xrayzerase
 
hi-not on as much-but still keep up here.
i just wanted to say it is good that people are really talking about this issue in "depth"-and giving links to sites that may help.
i now am taking up to 15 vicodin a day-i worry less about addiction than with the amount of tylenol that is in the vicodin.
i know i will have to face "detox" at some point. i've been there before though-and yes-codeine is equally as addictive as the others-i was taking up to -well-alot-of t-3's-seems like nothing-but when you take over 20 a day-it is a lot. especially the tylenol-i was lucky my liver didn't get toxicc-or whatever.
anyway-i am in for a colonoscopy (2nd one in 6 months) to see where the crohn's "is at"
the remicade unfortunately gave me lupus like-syptoms -and arthritis --but-it may go away once it is out of my body. i do know arthritis is part of crohn's though-so hard to tell.
regardless-i also upped my ativan. my gyn and psychiatrist work together now-which make me feel better. they all agreed the ativan and pentasa definitely work. i just now need to find a med i can take to get into remission-he will likely put me on entocrot again for 4 months -as well as 6mp-and up the dose as i go along. hopefully it will work.
anyway-i am talking to all of my dr's re different pain meds-the effect they have on the colon-etc-but-sometimes--what is the worst of all the evils?
without pain meds-well-for me-i can not function. it is that simple. until i am in at least "better" remission-whether meds or sugery-who knows-but-til theni will take the pain meds. whether they aggrevate or not. it is a matter of living a life. this could be a year or more til i get the right med/s.
i finally am also working with my psych re adjusting my meds for depression. so far-some help. less down.
it is good reading the various posts on pain meds. yeah-for me-that was -is-a big issue. i don't want (like all of us) to spend my life on this computer. i want to live. and if pain meds help me live-even if the aggrevate my colon-"ef" it-you know? i am looking into meds less aggrevating as well as for meds that have less tylenol. obviously i can';t take 4 vicodin at one dose every morning. it will mess my liver up. obvious stuff.
i apologize to ruthymg and TNT-you guys have great advice-i never nmeant to cause downers--i was just severely depressed-as well as having crohns'-i have had a probelm with depression (chemical) since 11. been in psych hospitals as a teen-so yeah-i do know i have depression.
but i do respect both of you-and i apologize for my abrupt behaviour-
at any rate
glad to see all this on pain meds-i wish the dr's would learn more rather than fear them-or the other side-give too much. there is too much fear (with dr's) on this issue-and we-the sick-suffer due to this. and it is messed up.
enough is enough on "addiction"-
detox is inevitable-but many ways to dealwith that (safely)-now. i'd rather take a good pain med-get addicted-but it is less "bad" for my colon--rather then take meds that hurt the crohns more. there are pain meds out there--but-get over yourselves dr's-addiction is not always the worst of the vils when it comes to disease.
10-02-2007, 01:00 AM   #35
Jvstin
 
I haven't posted here in over a year, if I even posted then, but I really want to reply to this.
I've had 2 doctors tell me to smoke marijuana. I was very unsure about it at first, but since pain kills the appetite, I finally broke down and did it, and by far, it's the only pain reliever I've used that hasn't aspired to become addictive. I've been given the morphine/phenergren combo pills, hydrocodone, etc. and they all have the potential of becoming addictive. it may not be the same for everyone, but in my case, marijuana works quiet well. if you aren't a fan of smoking (no crohns' patient should) try using it in tea, that works slower but just as well.
I hope no one is offended by this since it is currently an illegal drug, but ask your doctor(s) about it and get their opinion.
10-02-2007, 11:20 AM   #36
Kev
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My knowledge of medicinal marijuana is 2nd hand. I havent' needed it, as my own pain levels have moderated... In Canada, it is prescribed and legal for any number of situations where pain relief, nausea control, or appetite increase is seen as a pressing concern, and other traditional methods just won't do trick. I heard that it's also legal under similar circumstances in the US, but rarely used as getting a legit prescription is apparently extremely difficult. (just a rumour). I would certainly consider it if my pain levels were out of control. As for smoking, I've had 3 physicians who've very reluctantly admitted that it helps in the control of bleeding in various forms of colitis, up to and including crohns colitis.. but that it is definitely contra indicated in the treatment of crohn's disease. I'm not an advocate of smoking, tho I do smoke. The long term negative 'side effects' of tobacco can't be denied, its a treatment that will invariably cause you other problems, even killing you. but, the benefits of it (most likely the nicotine) cant' be denied either. If in a bad situation where you are consistently losing blood, and ground due to that, it's possible your doc might consider a nicotine patch or similar as a 'short term' solution. Bear in mind, we're talking blood loss due to colitis, not CD. Why it works for one, but hinders the latter, I dunno. Apparently, neither do Dr's..
Myself and my doc's want me off of tobacco ASAP, but the 1st step for me is to get my disease stabilized... then work on a remission, then wean me off of nicotine w/o causing a relapse or flare. Our plan is to use patches over a 10 week plus period, and keep our fingers crossed... Now, a lot of doctors will vehemently deny tobacco as a treatment for anything, considering all of the bad effects, and it's highly addictive nature. As for marijuana not being that addictive, I dunno. My personal experience is that I toked as a young fella, and had no problem putting it aside, whereas others in my peer group still do it, despite recreational use/possession being a criminal offense. Who knows...
I guess my concern with the latter is that, if coming from an illegal source is the quality.. has it been salted with other drugs, pesticides, herbicides, or if sourced illegally, what happens if one is busted buying it or possessing it. do you want to spend a nite in the lockup while suffering a crohns type flare up? Some folks travel thru life as is blessed, bad things never happen to them. As for us crohnies, shit just seems to follow us no matter how good we behave!
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10-13-2007, 10:59 AM   #37
spipe
 
You mean they give you people pain killers? I have never been given any pain killers except when it is a 9 in pain and go to the hospital. I usually have to take a stool softener, a gas reliever, steroids, and make myself vomit to relieve the pain to a level of sanity. If you get a chance check out my other posts I have figured out it is all about the speed of your bowls. I have tried every medication out there every treatment and have dropped them all I am med free. I found if a doctor doesnt know I do know my body better then they do and messed around and found my cure took me years but I have a full life besides an every now and then mistake of eating steak lol.
12-02-2007, 02:07 AM   #38
Jvstin
 
I praticly live on pain killers. I used to have regular prescriptions of Lortabs and the morphine/phenergren mix capsules.
now I don't have a G.I. that's so "friendly" with giving them out, so I live in pain most of the time, but it's became part of my life.
but whenever I have a flare and hit the E.R. I get a small prescription, which means I get more done around the house that week.
I suppose it all depends on where most of your inflamation is, mine is so low, so everytime I bend I hurt.
12-02-2007, 05:21 PM   #39
Samantha22
 
Hi I posted this some where else, but I am having severe leg pain. I just got diagnosised have been on prednisolone for about 3 weeks and I woke up today with the worst leg pain in life. It isn't muscle but bone. Has anyone else had problems with arthritis? I have had a high ANA test and some other arthritis before I was diagnosised with crohns they said it was fibromylaga (not sure if that is correct spelling). I am scared to go off prednisolone I don't want to get another flare up. That was horrible, I am nurse and I was the pt it was horrible. I couldn't stop vomiting and having diarrhea at the same time. I just remember the dr. saying you don't realize how serious this is. I just feel lost. Thanks
12-02-2007, 06:02 PM   #40
D Bergy
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I will go out on a limb here and propose a hypothesis that could easily be wrong but could point to a possible cause.

Steriods are like poison to someone with Lyme disease, which could very easily be the same as Fibromyalgia. You are suppressing the immune system when it needs it the most, to fight bacteria. This allows rapid activation and multiplication of the Lyme spirochete.

I know people with both diseases and the symptoms are so similar that I have a hard time believing they are different diseases.

Even if it is something else it is most likely bacterial in nature. Some if not most forms of Arthritis is likely caused by bacteria or micobacteria. If it is Lyme disease and you take any kind of antibiotic your symptoms will present themselves as a bad case of the flu because of the Herxheimer reaction.

Joint pain is the most common of symptoms along with many others. Long sunlight exposure can make it much worse. Also is often is worse in the spring and fall.

This may be way off base, but I do know that Lyme disease is nearing an epidemic if it is not already one, and should be considered. You will hear more about this in the future, but currently most people and even doctors are blissfully ignorant about it.

Dan Bergman
12-02-2007, 07:50 PM   #41
Kev
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Good hypothesis. Samm, do you live in an area where Lyme disease has been reported? Ever been bitten by a tick? Go walking in tall grass wearing loose legged pants or shorts? Do you have any pets that frequent the outdoors? Have you checked your body for an odd shaped bite mark, that has spread?
12-03-2007, 06:08 PM   #42
Samantha22
 
No I don't ever go outside in tall grass. I also don't think that I live in an area where there would be ticks. I was just wondering if anyone had this kind of side effect from the medication. I am suppose to go to the Dr. in the am and see what she says. Thanks for replying
12-19-2007, 06:13 PM   #43
melodia
 
Hi --

I'm going to try to start methotrexate to get things under control, it's not the abdominal pain that is so much the issue, eliminating eggs, gluten and animal fat from my diet has virtually stopped the cramping (except during defecation) it's my FEET.

Is there anything anyone here generally does for their feet? I mean, I usually have my bowel movements (several) in the early AM, but when this happens my feet flare up like nobodies business and I can't sleep. As a result, I'm becoming quite sleep deprived. I tried an NSAID and all it did was plug me up and then the pain in my feet was twice as bad two days later.

Tylenol and stuff do bad things to me as well, I was curious if there was an anti-inflammatory I could take that _wasn't_ an NSAID that would do the job.

Thanks!
01-14-2008, 06:32 PM   #44
MikeB101
 
Hi all, My wife has had Chrons for the last 6 years. She has become addicted to Codeine. Is codeine a must have for people with chrons?? She has become severley depressed that she is addicted to Codeine. Anyone have an idea of what she can do? Should she try to get off them completely?
01-14-2008, 11:06 PM   #45
D Bergy
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If you are in severe pain then I suppose some type of pain killer is in order. I really do not know what the alternatives are. It would be good to see the doctor and explain the situation. Maybe there is a less addictive alternative. I do not think Codeine is routinely used in the U.S. for Crohn's.

Sorry I could not help more.

Dan Bergman
03-11-2008, 07:57 AM   #46
Tdogzjoint
 
Sorry, but I have to say Ive been taking hydrocodone 10/325 for almost 4 years now, 3-4 tabs a day, with incredible results. First I'd like to say that it is true that people with REAL pain have only a small chance of addiction because they are actually taking it as perscribed.

I had difficulty sleeping due to cramps and the midnight trips to the john, but not at all while taking my pain meds. But even more importantly, the diahrrea control is unmatched with any other drug, before I was going 10 times a day or more; not to mention when I have to go, I HAVE to go!( I had 1/2 a colectomy at age 17) I could not imagine having to go to work or tackling my day otherwise.

When I take the med as perscribed, I only have to go 1-2 times a day, and when I do, It is not painful( normally it's like sitting on a hot poker ) And the stool has a shape instead of being like an oil slick. I'm not sure about this, but I think that the slower bowel movements are also beneficial because more nutrients are metabolized instead of just shooting through you; that just seems to make sense.

I just don't see why everyone has such a problem with this, for me it makes me feel normal, I get a LOT more things done around the house, I don't have to live in fear of not having a toilet around at all times, which to me is priceless. Opiates ARE a suggested form of treatment for severe crohn's sufferers, especially in my case where I'm on the toilet for 25% of the day. I have been fighting with my new GI, who suggested Immodium AD, I just laughed at him, he wants to perform surgery on me, which is only a temporary fix anyway( the likelyhood of crohn's returning to the bowels is 45-65%)

I do understand that a lot of people abuse these medications, but is because they are taking them for the wrong reasons, I feel opiate analgesics are grossly overlooked when treating mild to severe crohn's. And in my case NOTHING even comes close to the relief they provide me.

Okay, got it off my chest

Last edited by Tdogzjoint; 03-11-2008 at 08:10 AM.
03-12-2008, 06:12 AM   #47
Catmandu30
 
Hi there, ran into your post while researching crohn's issues. I am currently taking a new non-narcotic pain med called Tramadol. hope this might help!
03-12-2008, 09:48 AM   #48
Kev
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Safe usage of a prescribed pain med to deal with a constant, never ending pain shouldn't been seen as a problem by anyone. The question originally was pain meds AND addiction. addiction to anything inevitably poses big problems.
Equating the two is unfair... and defending an addition is a symptom of that addiction
03-12-2008, 10:29 AM   #49
Tdogzjoint
 
Catmandu30 said:
Hi there, ran into your post while researching crohn's issues. I am currently taking a new non-narcotic pain med called Tramadol. hope this might help!
I have heard of this, but does it do anything for the diahrreah?
03-12-2008, 10:32 AM   #50
Tdogzjoint
 
You are right on Kev, yes defending ones right to pain meds can be a tell-tale sign of addiction, I guess I mentioned it because my doctor said he was worried about me being addicted, which of course I thought was funny in my situation...
03-12-2008, 10:48 AM   #51
Kev
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Well, I don't think a doctor raising the question equates to an acusation (sp?) of being 'addicted', or even coming close. Just that a professional MUST raise the point from time to time... to forewarn a patient there is all too real a risk.

Like, even with 'real' pain issues, with a painkiller as the ONLY solution, there are known cases where addiction follows... It might take years for an alternative to come along, or for the pain to subside... Doesnt' negate that the 'addiction' has become a reality, and needs to be dealt with too.
03-12-2008, 01:11 PM   #52
TammySue62
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Catmandu30 said:
Hi there, ran into your post while researching crohn's issues. I am currently taking a new non-narcotic pain med called Tramadol. hope this might help!
I was on this drug until my pain Dr. said that they were removing it from the shelf. Did not work fast enough for me. I will stick with my dilaudid
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03-31-2008, 10:25 AM   #53
Colt
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I use darvocet. I ration it out though. A bottle of 60 pills lasted me over 2 years. I've had my current bottle of 20 since this time last year. Unless you take it repeatedly within a 3 day period it's impossible to develop a physical addiction anyway. Especially with darvocet which is by far the least addictive and side-effect prone. (it's also not as strong as codeine but it's enough to bring anything down within a typical crohn's patient's high pain threshold)

It's not that I'm not in excruciating pain that the pills last me so long, but because I restrain myself until I can't wait any longer. I don't have the option of just not taking pain medication. My pain is often so bad I worry about going into shock. I've certainly passed out from pain before.

The slowing effect of taking one darvocet isn't even bad most of the time. Slowing your intestines will reduce the terrible spasming that's tearing your intestines apart and give it a moment to rest and recuperate. The slowing of the intestines can be counter-acted easily with a laxative anyway. I've never encountered a worsening of my symptoms after taking a narcotic. Only improvements. In fact, my pains usually go away for the rest of the day after taking darvocet.

If quick bowels were the answer we'd all be on stimulant laxatives. The opposite is true in most cases. The objective is to slow the intestines to rest them from the constant damage they are doing with overly violent peristalsis and to prevent ripping open a blockage and instead of stimulating the intestines using things like stool softeners to make it easier to move through. In fact, my doctor encouraged me to take my narcotics more often because of that very reason.

As for joint pain which can get rather disabling for me sometimes I use cyclobenzaprine, but again in moderation. The key is to treat pain medication as a PRN as prescribed and not a daily med. As long as you're not really overdoing it any pain medication can be good for you.
06-28-2008, 06:59 AM   #54
nochie
 
I think having too much painkiller harmful for our health. It can damage our cedney.
06-30-2008, 01:20 AM   #55
BWS1982
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nochie said:
I think having too much painkiller harmful for our health. It can damage our cedney.
You can damage your "cedneys" all you want, they are afterall, intangible, fictional organs. About as real as your use of articles and syntax.
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06-30-2008, 03:59 AM   #56
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BWS1982 said:
You can damage your "cedneys" all you want, they are afterall, intangible, fictional organs. About as real as your use of articles and syntax.
gee, thanks Benson, i was just going to google where my cedneys were, & then check mine looked ok. you saved me from a lot of contortioning
06-30-2008, 09:15 AM   #57
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Hey, spelling, grammar, syntax (doesn't that sound like something the gov't would do if they could).. if we start nit-picking those, I'll have to stop posting altogether.... Afterall, some folks post on here in their 2nd language.
06-30-2008, 10:51 AM   #58
Isla
 
Kev said:
Hey, spelling, grammar, syntax (doesn't that sound like something the gov't would do if they could).. if we start nit-picking those, I'll have to stop posting altogether.... Afterall, some folks post on here in their 2nd language.
Well said my dear!
07-01-2008, 02:27 PM   #59
BWS1982
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I meant no offense, which is why I posted the " " following it. Just teasing. I'll bet if I went to some European forum and tried to converse in another language I'd butcher it to hell. I'm aware of the cultural diversity, as I've seen much evidence of it over the years on the net. No harm meant, I apologize if any came of it.
07-05-2008, 07:53 AM   #60
GregD
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I've been prescribed tramadol and percocet in the past. Neither really did anything for my Crohns related pain. However, after my resection surgery, the percocet really helped with my surgery related pain. I was on them for about 6 weeks after my operation. Going off them certainly wasn't easy. I wouldn't say I had a full blown addiction, but I was definitely starting to become dependent on them. If I had been on them for much longer, I could have seen it becoming a problem.

-Greg
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